Hellou friends

[WoollyShower]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Well, I originally came to this understanding through my interest and research with cognitive neuroscience, which shows that perceptions, including a sense of self are constructions of my brain. I have since deepened my understanding in a more experience based way using mostly TWIM amongst others.

What are you looking for at LU? I'm primarily looking for a guide, to help me get a bit more support in this journey towards liberation. There is a lot happening but I'm still stuck in the belief that I'm not doing enough, and that I'm not good enough, and I know that I need some peer support and I don't wanna keep doing this alone. I've been helping other people in their processes left an right so I don't have an issue giving back. Maybe giving too much is more of my thing.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I've been on this path pretty much on my own for a long time now. I have been reaching out more for support and guidance over the last year, and I'm hoping to get a bit more clarity from these conversations.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been meditating for over 8 years, switching between different approaches when I get stuck. I started with headspace app, then I did 6 months of TMI meditation, one hour each. Then I got into TWIM and metta meditation. I've been doing Yoga Nidra, which has helped me get into my body. I got an ADD diagnosis a couple of years ago, and I've been integrating this newfound framing of my struggles since then, which has increased my quality of life significantly. When I notice getting stuck in a thought, I move to the underlying sensation, and by shining awareness on the tension that is held there, it releases the thought as well. I am very into non-violent approaches to being in community and so on. I've been practicing Internal Family Systems Therapy for the last two years in combination with M-assisted therapy, which helped me most recently significantly reduce the symptoms of my generalised anxiety disorder which is a comorbidity of my ADHD. I've been listening to lots of talks by Gangaji, Mooji, Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanti and I've been recently working with Jon Bernie.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Elad]

Hello, my name is Elad and I would be happy to do this exploration with you, if we see that it makes sense. Please read and respond to the following points.

1. During this process we will attend only to your own direct experience. We will not be discussing theories or beliefs or other methods, including from non-duality and etc. I will ask you questions and give exercises and you will look and answer me from your direct experience.

2. The two most important ingredients in this process are your wish to see what is true and your willingness to look deeply at questions, give wholehearted engagement to experiments/exercises presented to you, and report your experience here with 100% honesty.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know or ask questions if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:


http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2

And:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. For the process to be focused and fruitful, I like to make an agreement that both guide and client (i.e you and me if we do this together) respond on this thread every day, and in the case of special circumstances where we cannot, still touch space here on the thread to say so, the day before or on the day. In the same spirit, I work with people who have the motivation and availability to make this process a primary priority in their life for the duration of the cooperation. If any of this does not fit your life rhythm, style or preferences, please let me know and another guide will work with you.

What may I call you?

Warmly,
Elad

[WoollyShower]

Hi Elad,

Thank you for your message and for offering to guide me. I am excited to get started :)

Yes I understand that we will talk about my direct experience, and I will look and tell you truthfully what I find.

I read the q&a section again and it all sounds good to me.

I will make this my priority and write here daily, and inform you if I have to skip a day for whatever reason.

Talk to you soon,
Synes

[Elad]

Hi Synes, great let's start:

When you look for Synes/I/self what does it refer to in direct experience?

Warmly,
Elad

[WoollyShower]

When you look for Synes/I/self what does it refer to in direct experience?

Not really anything specific. At this moment there arises some level of anxiety, a sense of restlessness and a tension in my chest that makes it hard to breath. But jeah, there is nothing solid or consistent in the sensations that come up.

Apart from that it‘s a placeholder in conversation for when other people refer to me as a person, and there is a lot of stuff tacked on but I haven‘t taken that personally for many years, yet it still affects me in more subtle ways.

There is mostly subtle reactions that come from the tendency to worry about other people‘s potential reaction to my behaviour: worrying, guessing what others might think, how they might react. Sadness, loneliness beneath that.

So jeah in summary, it‘s mostly like a mush of ever-changing sensations interspersed with moments of flow and effortless presence and dissociation, getting hooked into thoughts and then there is a pretty much constant ocean of thoughts that are in my own voice, but I had one experience where I actually heard them as different voices.

I am noticing (and have for several years now) how the thoughts are always associated with tensions in my body, a habitual contraction in my head or shoulders or chest or elsewhere in my body. When I focus on the tension in a gentle way it most often dissolves. And the thoughts dissolve as well. Now I sense sadness below that.

But due to the ADHD my attention keeps rotating on and moves to other places I get entangled in.

There are thoughts that come with stories and identified beliefs, but also these happen to relax after a while, when I notice the associated tension in my body and I get to relax it. When I notice that I am not in competition or polarity with those beliefs, they soften. Due to the ADHD and the constant sometimes faster and sometimes slower rotation of the attention there is not enough time to really be with these beliefs.

Is this useful?

[Elad]

Hi Synes,

Yes, this is useful. For the purposes of this investigation it will be helpful we focus on direct experience in the here and now, and set aside the observations that have been noticed in the past and about patterns over time. Such thoughts are useful for everyday life communication and thinking, often, however in the context of here-now investigation they are just thoughts and not direct experience. So I want to focus on just this part of your answer:

"Not really anything specific. At this moment there arises some level of anxiety, a sense of restlessness and a tension in my chest that makes it hard to breath. But jeah, there is nothing solid or consistent in the sensations that come up."

Attend to that Synes, I, self does not refer to anything found in direct experience. Allow the anxiety to be and come and go freely.

1) What is this anxiety and fear afraid will happen? Doesn't have to be rationally believed, just ramble without censoring (here I am inviting the desrcription of fantasy and thought outside direct experience).

2) Look to find what does this anxiety try to protect and what is this anxiety referring to *in direct experience*?

[WoollyShower]

Hi Synes,

Yes, this is useful. For the purposes of this investigation it will be helpful we focus on direct experience in the here and now, and set aside the observations that have been noticed in the past and about patterns over time. Such thoughts are useful for everyday life communication and thinking, often, however in the context of here-now investigation they are just thoughts and not direct experience. So I want to focus on just this part of your answer:

"Not really anything specific. At this moment there arises some level of anxiety, a sense of restlessness and a tension in my chest that makes it hard to breath. But jeah, there is nothing solid or consistent in the sensations that come up."

Attend to that Synes, I, self does not refer to anything found in direct experience. Allow the anxiety to be and come and go freely.

1) What is this anxiety and fear afraid will happen? Doesn't have to be rationally believed, just ramble without censoring (here I am inviting the desrcription of fantasy and thought outside direct experience).

The anxiety is not afraid of anything specific. It is more of a habitual tightening that is a reaction to the way that I have learned to control my everyday tasks big to small using willpower to compensate for my lack of control due to the AD(H)D. Generalised Anxiety is a comorbidity of ADHD is what I‘m saying.

I‘ve recently had a profound opening around anxiety where I was able to witness and release the vast majority of the anxiety that this part of me was holding. It went down in layers, and each layer had a different feel to it. Cornered animal, animal running for it‘s life, insect pinned to the wall, trying to escape,…

To give some context on my relationship with anxiety. Since that opening my relationship with anxiety has changed profoundly, instead of the constant fuzzy general anxiety I am now able to be with the fear when it arises for what feels like the first time in my life.

That said the fear and it‘s polarity are trying to help me to keep it together, that‘s what I‘m sensing at least. To protect me from an overwhelming sadness.

2) Look to find what does this anxiety try to protect and what is this anxiety referring to *in direct experience*?

There came now a bit the sense of having to get this right, not maybe understanding the question at first, that is distracting me from direct experience. I‘m closing my eyes and looking for the fear. That doesn‘t work. I look for the self, I ask in my head, is there a self here. Something says no but that‘s not it either.

Now I‘m relaxing my eyes, notice my breathing. My attention moves towards my head, and now I‘m looking in my chest again. There is the tension, the fear.

Ok so now I‘m with the fear again, what are the next steps? I‘m just looking at it, sensing the sensation, the contraction. The grief rising up a tiny bit. I ask the fear what is it protecting me from? „From myself“ Ok that‘s cryptic now there‘s some analysing happening.

Now there came a very subtle „loosing control“ as an answer. So the fear is in my chest now, feels pretty solid like a rock. I‘m not trying to push or pull at it, just looking. It is my heart. It‘s up to my throat. I try to give more space to the fear now. I feel more out of breath.

Jeah I get the hunch it‘s trying to protect me from „loosing control“. Now there is a bit more panic arising. It‘s very subtle.

It‘s an energy a certain solid tension in my chest. When I focus my attention on it the sensation gets stronger and I get the feeling of having a hard time breathing. Which makes the fear a bit more intense. And then I drop out, get distracted.

I think that‘s the best I can describe it for now.

[WoollyShower]

I forgot to delete the top part which is from your post. Sorry about that.

There‘s a lot of fear related not being fully seen by other people, having to explain myself in all different small and big circumstances. Without being understood

[Elad]

I forgot to delete the top part which is from your post. Sorry about that.

There‘s a lot of fear related not being fully seen by other people, having to explain myself in all different small and big circumstances. Without being understood

Hi thank you and happy new year. If you have a sense I dont see and understand you properly will you let me know? Wouldn't surprise me if it all ready happened or will happen down the line.

Let's look at thoughts.

Where do they come from?

Where do they go?

Can a thinker that controls them be found?

NB: Look only to what you can observe and describe here and now. The habit to analyze across time and come up with pattern descriptions is not where direct insight opens.

[WoollyShower]

Hi Elad, thank you for your message and happy new year to you too!

If you have a sense I dont see and understand you properly will you let me know? Wouldn't surprise me if it all ready happened or will happen down the line.

Yes, I‘ll let you know if I notice something. You don‘t happen to have ADHD yourself, right? I am very late diagnosed couple of years ago in my fourties, so I didn‘t know I was different from other people. I have been learning a lot about this condition and I‘m getting better at giving analogies trying to help people who do not have it maybe a clue of what it is like? But I‘m not sure if it‘s possible.
If there is anything you want me to explain better, please let me know. Also independent of the guidance. Not to distract from our mission, but jeah it‘s been fascinating to learn HOW VASTLY different many people‘s experience actually is, and how hard it is to understand experiences that are vastly different from our own. Like I still wonder what it must be like NOT to have ADHD :D

This was very funny and topical: https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyfJ1ZNS ... Zpcjlzeg== (in case you can‘t open it I took a screenshot as well)

Let's look at thoughts.

Where do they come from?

Where do they go?

Can a thinker that controls them be found?

Thoughts are. I don‘t notice a singular point of them arising. I would locate them roughly in my head area, but then again if I actually look there is no specific points where I could pinpoint to my body where they come from.

Some thoughts feel more identified than others. Like I am talking them. I am doing them. And if I want I can choose to say certain things „in my head“. Like now I just improvised some gibberish in my „inner voice“: diduuaa brecrabblaa, etc

Most thoughts just happen. Like the vast majority of thoughts I have zero control over (ADHD). They pop up out of nowhere, and just have their way with me and then go into nothingness.

Some thoughts are extremely persistent and they have different strategies to be noticed. Some of them do just repeat over and over again. Like rephrasing a sentence in different ways over and over again to find the best possible way to be understood. They also have a way to compress my attention (and force me to focus on them), which takes a lot of effort, so I usually notice it as a tension in the body and then I‘m able to relax it.

Again when I say I here, it‘s not really something I‘m intentionally doing, it happens. The same way that I obviously do not do the distracting, I am not doing the coming back into attention.

The I/me is like a tension in the body or like another thought there, but it‘s different from like other thoughts. If I try to pay attention to it for the example of the rephrasing that‘s happening: I feel like I have to do this. But I‘m not doing it. But it feels like I‘m doing it. There is a hardness, a „we have to do this now“ kinda energy around it.

There is no thinker, like not at least that I can see. But if I ask a question then most of the time I do get an answer, so somebody is doing the thinking I guess, but it‘s definitely not me.

[WoollyShower]

Walking down the stairs from the bathroom just now I also noticed that there is a part of me that constantly narrates what I‘m doing, or should be doing. I‘m not sure what it‘s purpose is, probably to keep me on track, that I loose my track a bit less than I would otherwise do. But it‘s really annoying. That one also feels very much like me, but the annoyment towards this type of inner voice is relatively new, which means to me that there is a (very slow) shift happening. I am not only noticing the voice (which I haven’t in the past, even though it was there for a long time), but even realising it as being separate from myself. Also I can‘t control it. It‘s just so stupid.

[Elad]

Walking down the stairs from the bathroom just now I also noticed that there is a part of me that constantly narrates what I‘m doing, or should be doing. I‘m not sure what it‘s purpose is, probably to keep me on track, that I loose my track a bit less than I would otherwise do. But it‘s really annoying. That one also feels very much like me, but the annoyment towards this type of inner voice is relatively new, which means to me that there is a (very slow) shift happening. I am not only noticing the voice (which I haven’t in the past, even though it was there for a long time), but even realising it as being separate from myself. Also I can‘t control it. It‘s just so stupid.

Hi Synes,

This is all good. I don't think we will need to talk about ADHD here since the core of this is beyond particular patterns. I actually think I might have light ADHD (undiagnosed), maybe I'll be inspired by you to check. BUT - for the purposes of this work I recommend to keep your answers as short and simple and to the point as possible. These many observations and thoughts about you could be useful in a different context but here they can easily become a distraction. Please answer the questions about thoughts again, each one separate and as short and to the point as possible - quote my questions and answer one after one. And always answer only from what you SEE here and now, not from thinking about it. So repeating:

Let's look at thoughts.

Where do they come from?

Where do they go?

Can a thinker that controls them be found?

[Elad]

To help make it clearer:

Can you find even one thought in DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE) that comes or goes with your control, is decided and produced by you?

Can you find any REAL thinker of the thoughts in DE?

[WoollyShower]

Okay, good luck with your investigation!

Let's look at thoughts.

Where do they come from?

I don‘t know? They are just there, they don‘t come from anywhere? Where = location. I cannot locate them.

Where do they go?

I don‘t know if i understand the question. Thoughts are just thoughts, they are there and I follow them or not or whatever. They are not anywhere. I don‘t make them, I just like observe them.

Can a thinker that controls them be found?

Nobody is controlling my thoughts. They are out of control. Thinker = doing. Is someone doing the thoughts? That is not something I can find in my direct experience. Nobody is doing thoughts.

Can you find even one thought in DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE) that comes or goes with your control, is decided and produced by you?

Ok so I‘m describing what I‘m doing to make sure I am doing this the right way: I‘m closing my eyes and trying to attend to my thoughts. It‘s hard because my attention is just switching channels all the time. What I‘m notice is that there are thoughts that FEEL like they‘re mine - but I‘m not doing them. I‘m experiencing them. None of the thoughts that I observe come and go with my control.

Can you find any REAL thinker of the thoughts in DE?

I do not know how I would find a thinker of thoughts? This question doesn‘t make any sense to me. Like how would I even search for it? And make sure that it‘s thinking. It feels so philosophical to me this question, it‘s confusing me.

I‘m not thinking the thoughts, right? I cannot control them. Then how would I find out if someone else is thinking them? Like this applies to other things as well. Am I creating my sensations? My perceptions? No. Is there someone who‘s creating them? How would I know? It‘s not something I can tell in direct experience. They are just there. I don‘t know if there‘s a thinker of thoughts, it‘s not something I can observe in direct experience.

[Elad]

Okay, good luck with your investigation!

Let's look at thoughts.

Where do they come from?

I don‘t know? They are just there, they don‘t come from anywhere? Where = location. I cannot locate them.

Where do they go?

I don‘t know if i understand the question. Thoughts are just thoughts, they are there and I follow them or not or whatever. They are not anywhere. I don‘t make them, I just like observe them.

Can a thinker that controls them be found?

Nobody is controlling my thoughts. They are out of control. Thinker = doing. Is someone doing the thoughts? That is not something I can find in my direct experience. Nobody is doing thoughts.

Can you find even one thought in DIRECT EXPERIENCE (DE) that comes or goes with your control, is decided and produced by you?

Ok so I‘m describing what I‘m doing to make sure I am doing this the right way: I‘m closing my eyes and trying to attend to my thoughts. It‘s hard because my attention is just switching channels all the time. What I‘m notice is that there are thoughts that FEEL like they‘re mine - but I‘m not doing them. I‘m experiencing them. None of the thoughts that I observe come and go with my control.

Can you find any REAL thinker of the thoughts in DE?

I do not know how I would find a thinker of thoughts? This question doesn‘t make any sense to me. Like how would I even search for it? And make sure that it‘s thinking. It feels so philosophical to me this question, it‘s confusing me.

I‘m not thinking the thoughts, right? I cannot control them. Then how would I find out if someone else is thinking them? Like this applies to other things as well. Am I creating my sensations? My perceptions? No. Is there someone who‘s creating them? How would I know? It‘s not something I can tell in direct experience. They are just there. I don‘t know if there‘s a thinker of thoughts, it‘s not something I can observe in direct experience.

You are smart and observe well. Now, please understand the point of the questions is not for you to end with the right conceptual understanding. It's to shift the pattern that still creates doubt or a belief that you are a self. If it "feels philosophical" it's a good sign for you just to look more and more wholeheartedly until doubt is gone. I could ask you to find me an upside down circle. It could work if you look wholeheartedly enough. Are you up for the task with full commitment and to put all you have in it?

What could possibly be a self that could wake up? What could possibly be a separate self?

Look at all aspects of experience moment to moment, thoughts, feelings, sensations, attention, breath, movement... Is this the self that is confused and could wake up? Is this?

Don't let your analysis control this cause it won't get anywhere except becoming even more intellectually more refined then most people, which you all ready are. Fine and good, serves well many places. Not the point for waking up.