What am I?

[LoriAnn]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
When I look at thoughts, I can’t find the origin, however I have a strong sense of ‘Lori’ making decisions and looking, hearing. When I look, I find a sense of self in some ways, yet when I look in the mirror, I know there is no one there.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am searching for a clear understanding of ‘nothingness’. I am sooo tired of searching, and I feel its very close, yet elusive. I feel a buzzing in my head when searching for the ‘I’. I feel it, yet cannot own it. Perhaps there is nothing to own? How do I let go?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointers directed at dropping the self. I have cognitive understanding of it all. I have watched many new occurrences with my eyes, lately, yet the self remains. Walls vibrate, undulate, rooms lose color and become a veil, edges of things become luminous… my eyes see and I still feel the self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have meditated every day for
Years. I have rejected most religions and as much dogma as I could (from childhood - I was told there was a hell, and I just didn’t believe it) but I’m sure there are religious beliefs I don’t see. I have understood the buddhas story, but reject the rules. Perhaps to my own detriment, who knows? I am currently following angelo dilullos youtube channel on nonduality. Read Adyashanti, eckhart Tolle. I’m 63 and I’m exhausted with my mind .

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Bluejay]

Hi LoriAnn,

I'm Henri.

Welcome to the forum. I'd be happy to be your guide if you'd like?

If yes, then we can start...

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer here: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/reg ... isclaimer/

And then have a look at what Liberation Unleashed is not in the FAQ: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some guidelines (you may already be familiar with most of this, but just in case):

1. Post at least once every 24 to 48 hours. I'm not strict about this, but I would prefer it if you posted regularly. If you can't, please let me know.

2. Pause any other teachings, rituals, books, and practices you are currently involved in. It is best to put all your effort into this inquiry for as long as it lasts. A meditation practice is fine, but anything else can be a distraction. Also, Angelo's material aligns with this process very well, so no problem there.

3. Technology can be problematic. I recommend you type your answers in a text editor like MS Word or Google Docs, and then copy and paste them into this thread. This way you avoid losing your answer if there's a technical glitch.

4. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to answer each question individually. Here are instructions on how to use the quote function if it is not already clear: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And to start, I'd like to know your expectations. You don't have to use direct experience for this. Just share what comes to mind:

1. How will life change when you realize there is no "I"?
2. How will you change?
3. What do you want or expect to be different?
4. What is missing right now that you will have when there is a shift?

Enjoy! :)

[LoriAnn]

Hi Henri,

First, THANK YOU for signing up to help me. I appreciate it so very much. Hopefully some day I can return the favor to someone else.

1. I would assume life will go on the same, but I will see everything differently. This may cause change down the road, but I can’t know what that will be.

2.I am hoping my seeking will stop; the inner desire for whatever it is I am searching for will cease, and I will stop feeling like an alien from somewhere else, with part of me missing. How ironic that I am looking to lose an ‘I’ to feel whole!

3.I have had glimpses. During a meditation in March, I had an incredible experience (Angelo Dilullo would call it a foretaste) and experienced nothing-ness. I was nothing, in a vast darkness, absolutely nowhere with a sense of love.’Untethered’ was a word that came to me during this time. I slowly came back to myself, over a couple of days. I was happy to come back, as I had completely lost any sense of time, had very little going on in my head and really in an altered state. Thankfully, I was free from most duties. I had no idea, at the time, what was happening. It was too much at once, and I felt relieved when I got back to a semblance of normal. Some things changed forever it would seem. While in the darkness, I saw my fear of losing my identity, Lori. It was a thick black mass, in the darkness I was hanging out in. It was my thinking/feeling this fear that brought me out of it, I think. So, what do I want to be different? I want my mind to stop thinking it is controlling everything. I want the expansive freedom I felt in the darkness. I don’t cherish the idea of floating, alone, with fear as my friend, but the insights in other areas I have had since, are very welcome!

4. What is missing? i experienced many things I miss. FREEDOM from the monkey mind, and all the beliefs it has created to keep itself in the mix is high on the list .Knowing, deeply feeling, that everything is perfect. The act of actually using my eyes bringing me incredible joy, not to mention how exciting it was to look at things. But the act of vision, felt indescribable. Seeing and feeling love in everyone! I thought I knew everyone in the grocery store! I knew and loved them all. Intimately. I can't imagine what exquisite phenomena awaits!

What has remained with me is the energy i feel from people. Enlightened people can make me speechless, the energy is so strong. It makes me dizzy and leaves me with a different feeling in my head I can’t describe.

I think that’s all I have to say, except once again, THANK YOU!
-Lori

[Bluejay]

Hello!

Please use the quote function like I've done below as it makes asking and answering easier and clearer.

1. I would assume life will go on the same, but I will see everything differently. This may cause change down the road, but I can’t know what that will be.

With these questions on expectations I'm looking for the desires that are underneath. For example, when you see things differently, then what will happen? What will be here and not be here?

I believe you mostly answered these questions below.

2.I am hoping my seeking will stop; the inner desire for whatever it is I am searching for will cease, and I will stop feeling like an alien from somewhere else, with part of me missing. How ironic that I am looking to lose an ‘I’ to feel whole!

The good news is that there is no part missing, because that isn't possible :)

I want my mind to stop thinking it is controlling everything. I want the expansive freedom I felt in the darkness. I don’t cherish the idea of floating, alone, with fear as my friend, but the insights in other areas I have had since, are very welcome!

What is the problem with the mind thinking it is controlling?

The problem isn't thoughts, but the identification with them. This exploration is more freedom with everything instead of freedom from.

All this often comes down to: I want to feel better and feel good as much as possible.

Now, the reason I ask these preliminary questions is because there can be grand expectations on realizing there is no separate self when it is a simple belief in being the doer, controller, thinker, and decider of life.

Sometimes nothing changes, and it is seen that all that was avoided is still here, but now has to be faced. There's a reason it is called awakening, or sobering up.

4. What is missing? i experienced many things I miss. FREEDOM from the monkey mind, and all the beliefs it has created to keep itself in the mix is high on the list .Knowing, deeply feeling, that everything is perfect. The act of actually using my eyes bringing me incredible joy, not to mention how exciting it was to look at things. But the act of vision, felt indescribable. Seeing and feeling love in everyone! I thought I knew everyone in the grocery store! I knew and loved them all. Intimately. I can't imagine what exquisite phenomena awaits!

First there are thoughts, then there are thoughts that want freedom from thoughts.

These glimpses you have are great, but beware of them becoming a thing to get. The mind easily takes an experience, makes it a goal/expectation, and the search continues for the ultimate feeling good state.

Now, how familiar are you with direct experience?

There's a big difference between knowing (going to the mind for answers), and seeing (looking in direct experience).

For example: If I ask you what color your socks are, you can answer in two ways:

1. You can think of the answer and try to remember

2. You can take a look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be crucial that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in this very moment.

Direct Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[LoriAnn]

Hi Henri,
I feel I am clear on the difference between direct experience and thought or knowledge that the brain is holding. I have not, up to this point in my life, been really clear about it when answering my own questions! The present experience only. I can 'feel' into the body and the reactions, but please point out when I have strayed away from the my direct experience. This alone is really helpful!!!

For example, when you see things differently, then what will happen? What will be here and not be here?

I have no direct experience of no 'I'. When I look for it.... it's not there. There is no substance. There is only the word 'I' with a question. This is a thought!!! There is a belief of an 'I' ..... but I can't find it. It would appear a belief in thoughts is alive and well, lol.

These glimpses you have are great, but beware of them becoming a thing to get.

You are correct, I want them back. They are part of the thought system, part of the belief in the 'I'

c

Now, the reason I ask these preliminary questions is because there can be grand expectations on realizing there is no separate self when it is a simple belief in being the doer, controller, thinker, and decider of life.

Yes, I have a belief in a thinker! Is that different than the 'I'? The thinker is something in my head. But when I look at where thoughts come from, there isn't anything there. It's empty.

What is the problem with the mind thinking it is controlling?

Lol, it is doing a terrible job! i could go on and on, but the crux of the matter is it isn't attached to what is real. And right now real feels like my heart. It's not attached to that awareness, it doesn't come from there.

This makes my head fuzzy. I am sensing a resistance. The thinker doesn't want to push against this exact thing.

-Lori

[Bluejay]

I have no direct experience of no 'I'. When I look for it.... it's not there. There is no substance. There is only the word 'I' with a question. This is a thought!!! There is a belief of an 'I' ..... but I can't find it. It would appear a belief in thoughts is alive and well, lol.

You may not have direct experience, but that is not the question. The question here is the expectation you have of what will happen.

So from that perspective, can you answer: When you see things differently, then what will happen? What will be here and not be here?

You are correct, I want them back. They are part of the thought system, part of the belief in the 'I'

It's good to let them go, because you will never get them back, not in the way you remember them. They are now a memory and thought.

Yes, I have a belief in a thinker! Is that different than the 'I'? The thinker is something in my head. But when I look at where thoughts come from, there isn't anything there. It's empty.

We will explore this soon!

Lol, it is doing a terrible job! i could go on and on, but the crux of the matter is it isn't attached to what is real. And right now real feels like my heart. It's not attached to that awareness, it doesn't come from there.

Yes, but notice that this judgment is another thought. It's thought judging thought, which is a distraction from this moment.

Okay, so what I want you to do next is watch an interview between two LU guides: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC3DzLY7glU

They talk a lot about expectations and common traps. Watch it and let me know what resonated with you and where you felt resistance, if there was any :)

At the same time, you can do the below pointer during the day:

I'd like you to try this as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order on each line.

Also pay attention to how the mind wants to label, judge, interpret, and constantly make sense of things.

[LoriAnn]

So from that perspective, can you answer: When you see things differently, then what will happen? What will be here and not be here?

Without an 'I', I will lose self referential thoughts. If there is no 'me' to get my feelings hurt, or whatever 'I' feels, I would lose the beliefs about myself. What would be here, would just be what is!

The youtube video: I agreed with everything, but had one sticky point. The only resistance or lack of understanding I had is when they talked about oneness. I have been oneness, so I am not sure what they were saying about subject and object, that there cannot be oneness with two objects? Also, when I experienced oneness it felt like a truth that resonated with me. Was this just thought???? It feels like Love.

Things of note that I learned: I didn’t realize the body just functions. It is not doing things on it’s own, it’s not aware!! Are reflexes all coming from the mind?

Emotions make beliefs stronger.

The sense of self isn’t going to necessarily disappear in an instant (unless it does). It can leave slowly. Every time the sense of self comes up, it should be looked for. (This would take up a lot of my time!) Eventually the sense of self will disappear, when you have no resistance to it popping up.

Great video, thank you!

I thoroughly enjoyed this exercise! It would seem to be silly, but it is crazy fun! I love it! It is driving home a huge point. So many thoughts, 99.9% aren’t necessary. I will continue to do this! It is really showing me how active my mind is, unnecessarily. (When I do this exercise what I call Awareness, I don’t know what this platform refers to All That Is, comes into the forefront. Makes it hard to read. I get dizzy, things swirl around when I move my head... Not sure what that's about.)

thought arising simply = thought
seeing tea kettle, simply = image/ color
seeing tea bag simply = image/color
seeing cup simply = image/color
seeing tea dissipate simply = image/color
smelling tea, simply = smelling
stirring tea simply = sensation
tasting tea simply = taste

seeing magazine simply = image/color
touching magazine simply = texture
thoughts arising simply = thought

thought arising simply = thought
seeing bowl simply = image/color
seeing yogurt simply = image/color
tasting yogurt simply = taste
seeing spoon simply = image/color
touching spoon simply = texture
tasting yogurt simply = taste

seeing yarn simply = image/color
seeing knitting needles simply = seeing image/color
seeing sweater simply = image/color
feeling knitting simply = sensation

thought arising simply = thought

thought arising simply = thought
seeing bowl simply = image/color
seeing can simply = image/color
seeing soup simply = image/color
seeing microwave simply = image/color
stirring soup simply = sensation
tasting soup simply = taste
thought arising simply = thought

seeing thought simply = thought
seeing glass simply = image/color
seeing tap simply = image/color
seeing water simply = image/color

seeing chair simply = image/color
seeing table simply = image/color
sitting down simply = feeling body

hearing voices simply = sound
thoughts arising simply = thought
seeing table simply = image/color

seeing shoe simply = image/color
thought arising simply = thought

seeing drink simply image/color
tasting drink simply = taste

seeing backpack simply = image/color
feeling backpack simply = sensation
thought arising simply = thought

seeing earbuds simply = image/color
feeling earbuds simply = sensation
hearing simply = sound
thoughts arising simply = thought

seeing chair simply = image/color
feeling chair simply = sensation

seeing car simply = image/color
seeing car seat simply = image color
feeling car seat simply = sensation
seeing dashboard simply = image/color

see door simply = image/color
see doorknob simply = image/color
thoughts arising simply = image/color
feel doorknob simply = sensation

Thank you Henri!!
-Lori

[Bluejay]

Hi Lori,

If there is no 'me' to get my feelings hurt, or whatever 'I' feels, I would lose the beliefs about myself. What would be here, would just be what is!

This is the interesting part. Basically there is a desire to not get hurt, and that is an expectation of awakening.

Good to be aware of this, because seeing through the self illusion may not change anything. Hurt can still be there without a separate self, because it is there now, and there has never been a separate self.

The youtube video: I agreed with everything, but had one sticky point. The only resistance or lack of understanding I had is when they talked about oneness. I have been oneness, so I am not sure what they were saying about subject and object, that there cannot be oneness with two objects? Also, when I experienced oneness it felt like a truth that resonated with me. Was this just thought???? It feels like Love.

Here's what comes up for me: There's no need to try and figure out what exactly you experienced. It was a fleeting experience. It was amazing. That is enough. The only thing is to not take it to mean anything. That's why many teachers say to forget any experiences because they easily become hindrances.

What they talked about in the interview is probably the day-to-day experience of oneness when subject-object disappears, which often happens in later stage realization. And this oneness is not the oneness most imagine. It's much more mundane and ordinary.

I thoroughly enjoyed this exercise! It would seem to be silly, but it is crazy fun! I love it! It is driving home a huge point. So many thoughts, 99.9% aren’t necessary. I will continue to do this! It is really showing me how active my mind is, unnecessarily. (When I do this exercise what I call Awareness, I don’t know what this platform refers to All That Is, comes into the forefront. Makes it hard to read. I get dizzy, things swirl around when I move my head... Not sure what that's about.)

Glad that you enjoyed it!

I'll leave some of your questions unanswered. Hopefully they resolve themselves as we explore deeper. It would be better for you to see how questions tend to answer themselves, without thoughts trying to figure it out.

Let's now explore how the mind labels experience. This takes about 20 minutes and you will need pen and paper.

This exercise is broken into 2 x 10 minute parts. For each 10 minute part pay attention to any bodily sensation (is there any tightening, or any relaxing?)

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

- I am sitting on a chair
- I am hearing a clock ticking
- I am looking at a computer screen
- I am feeling hungry

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the second ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”.

Describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

- Sitting on a chair
- Typing
- Breathing
- Blinking
- Hearing the clock
- Hunger

(Watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy! :)

[LoriAnn]

Hi Henri,

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

That was an interesting exercise. I really struggled with the 'I am....' portion. I got bored, felt disengaged. Just using verbs was definitely better, not difficult. Interesting.

2. What is here without labels?

Awareness is here without labels, looking out of these eyes. Everything else has a label. I can't hold it though. My mind goes to thought.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels do not affect the experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

My body is vibrating, tingling with the Awareness. Things in the room got white and smokey for a bit. I can feel the aliveness in my body, it feels like every cell is moving. Everything in the room and out side the windows, is very still, yet moving within itself. I have gone to this place before. I am just breathing. A gift.
love,
-Lori

[Bluejay]

Awareness is here without labels, looking out of these eyes. Everything else has a label. I can't hold it though. My mind goes to thought.

Isn't awareness another label?

What is awareness in direct experience?

[LoriAnn]

Hi Henri,
Yes, awareness is another label. What is it when things go quiet, if not awraeness? Is my mind tricking me? Is it saying, look here, you've found it? The self goes so deep, and is so tricky, I am not sure! I don't know how to find out, except to ask. Asking takes me right into this state. Could my self put up a block because it's afraid?

What is awareness in direct experience?

To me, it is looking out of my eyes, without thought. It is sometimes accompanied by a dizziness. I feel a stretching in my head, if I had to describe it. But just seeing, sometimes with sparkly things happening sometimes not. Is there a self present? There is no thought, so it's hard to know. I tihnk I might be stuck in a quagmire of self-preservation here. I don't know.

[Bluejay]

Yes, awareness is another label. What is it when things go quiet, if not awraeness? Is my mind tricking me? Is it saying, look here, you've found it? The self goes so deep, and is so tricky, I am not sure! I don't know how to find out, except to ask. Asking takes me right into this state. Could my self put up a block because it's afraid?

Why does it need a name? Why not just stay in the not knowing?

There really is nothing to grasp on to, so when thought is saying "Look, it's this," that is already not it.

Now if you still want to call it awareness, that's fine. I always explore all the labels because the self can easily hide there, so it's a good place to inquire fully, and then if the word still resonates, that's fine.

To me, it is looking out of my eyes, without thought. It is sometimes accompanied by a dizziness. I feel a stretching in my head, if I had to describe it. But just seeing, sometimes with sparkly things happening sometimes not. Is there a self present? There is no thought, so it's hard to know. I tihnk I might be stuck in a quagmire of self-preservation here. I don't know.

There is belief that thought holds the answer. What's happening is simply that a thought is saying 'you' might be stuck.

You mentioned something is looking out of your eyes, so let's explore this:

Seeing Exercise

The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'doing' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' and so on.

In this exercise, we'll focus on seeing.

So, close your eyes.

With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things going on, but the specifics aren't important.

I'm going to keep things simple and use the term 'blackness' for whatever you can see while your eyes are closed.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?

What do you find?

Can an inherent see-er be found?

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought?

[LoriAnn]

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes, blackness!

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?[/color] My body became the blackness, it is only blackness, but the place from which this was seen was in the area of my head. 'I' was not the blackness, I was observing the blackness.

What do you find? My belief that there is an 'I' watching the dissolution

Can an inherent see-er be found? Yes, I think so

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept, idea, or thought? It must be a thought.
[/quote]

[Bluejay]

'I' was not the blackness, I was observing the blackness.

Now, how do you know you were observing it? What tells you this? Thought/Image? Sensation? Sound? Name all the elements.

[LoriAnn]

.

Now, how do you know you were observing it? What tells you this? Thought/Image? Sensation? Sound? Name all the elements.

So, in the blackness, my thought was, maybe there is no I? And that was recognized at truth, but thought of Lori came up, and i thought, well, yes, there is a Lori. Lori is this thinking mechanism, even though I don't see an origin. I didn't know where to go with that thought, as I seem to go in frustrating circles. I can recognize that thoughts don't come from anywhere, I search for their origin, and find nothing. But then the thought of Lori shows up as the person orchestrating these things with no origin. How do I tie the two together? i am finding strong resistance.