I Do So Exist!

[cfriedline]

Hi. My name is Charles. I have been practicing aspects of Zen Buddhism on and off for several years, but seriously just since last March. I’m always searching by nature and always willing to try something new.

I have read a lot of descriptions of what being awake feels like, so I am interested in trying this out. However, I warn you ahead of time that I may be a difficult case. I am having a hard time with the idea that I do not exist—that there is no me. On one level, I get that we are all one—that there is only one vast field of “energy” in the universe and that we are all just manifestations of that one “thing.” But that’s where I get hung up. We are all manifestations of it. I am one manifestation, living on the third planet from a star called Sol in the Milky Way Galaxy. (And I know those names are only labels, but to me that doesn’t change the fact that there is a human living on a planet orbiting a star in a larger cluster of stars.)

I can look down into an ant hill and see that there are thousands of individual ants, each performing a task and living out there ant lives. Now, I know that an individual human or ant is insignificant on a planetary scale—and even less so on a cosmic scale—but to me that doesn’t change the fact. That. They. Exist.

I do exist, do you hear me? Now, knowing all of that, is there anyone willing to take me on?

[zenkitties]

Hey Cfriendline,

Welcome to the forums. Thank you very much for the introduction.

Before we start, I would like to know what you plan on getting out of this? What do you truly want from this discussion (or the appearance of a discussion)?

[cfriedline]

I would like to be awake--as described by so many others. I'm just not sure I'm ready to stop clinging to my own individual existence. But I wouldn't be here if i didn't think it was possible. I'm hoping you can help me "see the light."

[zenkitties]

haha, see the light. I can't gaurantee you'll "see the light" but I'll do my best, we both have a zen type background so I'll try and incoporate that as much in the looking as possible.

I'm just not sure I'm ready to stop clinging to my own individual existence.

Lets take a look at this. There is a part that doesn't want to hold on anymore though or this wouldn't have been proposed, so there seems to be a conflict here. You won't need to worry about letting go of anything that is of value I can promise you that.

So onto the question, what is you exactly? Try and be as clear and concise as possible. Honesty is key here, being brutally honest at what is seen?

[cfriedline]

There is absolutely a conflict. I feel skeptical that I will ever be able to let go of the concept of “me,” but at the same time, I feel like I could just let go—literally any second. Like it could just snap right now. It is very strange—but then again, I have proven capable of holding two contradictory opinions simultaneously, so I shouldn’t be surprised. :)

So, what is “me,” exactly? I am an organism, composed mainly of carbon and hydrogen, which was born at a certain time on a planet, circling a star, amongst a giant cluster of other stars, in an infinite, or nearly infinite, universe. I survive by processing oxygen from my planet’s atmosphere and by consuming organic materials which my body converts into energy. The species I belong to has evolved over millions of years and has acquired the ability to process information obtained from the environment via organs such as the eye, which processes light and allows me to “see,” and the ears, which process sound waves in the atmosphere, allowing me to “hear.” My species has developed a brain which allows us to process abstract information in addition to physical information. We are capable of processing algebraic equations, for example, which most other species are not capable of doing.

I am one individual organism representing my species on this planet. I was conceived and born in a particular place at a particular time. The custom of my species is to give each individual a name. Mine is Charles Friedline. My species, or at least the branch of it that lives on this part of the planet, has an approximate lifespan of 75 years. Eventually, my body and mind will cease to function and I will die. Being organic, the components of my body will decompose and I will cease to exist as an individual organism.

I hope you realize I am not being a smart aleck. I really do look at it this way! :)

[zenkitties]

So, what is “me,” exactly? I am an organism

Thank you for the reply, we'll start with this, the rest is just story which though is fun for the mind, has nothing to do with seeing through the I with honest looking.

What gives you the impression that you are this "me" looking at it, what is this me sense you speak of? How do you know you are this me besides the belief that you are a "species" as you put it. :P

Understood that you aren't being a smart aleck. The mind does this kind of thing to perpetuate some kind of ego. No offense taken.

[cfriedline]

I know I am me because I think I am. Just like Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am." An organism or entity having thoughts is proof of its own existence. If I did not exist, I would not be thinking. If I am thinking, I must exist. Yes?

[zenkitties]

who thinks that he is, where or what is it?

Thoughts are happening that doesn't mean there has to be a you thinking thoughts.

Like a dream of unicorn, appears real to sight but doesn't mean it's real in reality, so the same goes for the sense of self. It can feel real in an abstract way but in no way can be real in reality.

If I did not exist, I would not be thinking.

have you investigated this?

If I am thinking, I must exist. Yes?

no. you're making an assumption there is a thinker. there does not have to be a thinker for thoughts to happen. Otherwise you would not be trying to break free from "suffering" an I. You would be able to stop those thoughts at will and no longer "hurt" through emotional situations.

[zenkitties]

btw we aren't trying to find out whether you exist or not exist, we're trying to figure out if there is an I even there to begin with.

[cfriedline]

That's one of the problems I'm having right there. If there is no "I," then who is thinking these thoughts and typing these words? If "I" don't exist, then who does?

[zenkitties]

That's one of the problems I'm having right there. If there is no "I," then who is thinking these thoughts and typing these words? If "I" don't exist, then who does?

nice and simplified, very nice!

Does there have to be an I for thinking to happen? Look and see if there is a case in which there was nothing claiming but thought was happening.

If "I" don't exist, then who does?

I is a thought, but no more importance outside of that. That's where the illusion lies. For now don't worry about the who does exist part. We can talk about that later after we figure this fundamental question out if its still desired.

[cfriedline]

My first thought is, yes, I do think an "I" has to exist for thinking to take place. I can't think of an example of thinking taking place without an "I," but maybe I just lack imagination for these kinds of abstract ideas. I did struggle with Philosophy class--at least until we got to the Existentialists. :)

But then my next thought is, while I do think an "I" must exist for thinking to take place, what do I really know? I'm a tiny organism on a speck of a rock hurtling through the vacuum of infinite space. What I know is probably quite limited in the big picture.

I still feel I need some convincing, but I don't expect you to do all the work. Keep pushing and asking!

FYI: I will be unable to access email for the next few hours, so if I don't respond for awhile you'll know why.

Thanks for everything!

[zenkitties]

no more abstract then that whole story you told about the human species. You aren't looking if you say you can't see a time in which thoughts happen without a "doer" that is claimed to be here. Or aside from seeing that the thought of a doer is just a thought itself just claiming. See how simple it is? It isn't abstract it just takes some inspection.

This is not a philosophy, its looking at the I and seeing if it is really there. Almost as if you are disecting it down to its very essence. If its really there, where is it? Find it for me.

Here let me give you an example. A movie is being depicted on a movie screen and the human bodies sensations seem to be reacting to the movie. Thoughts are happening yet, there is not always a claim to I am feeling this, it is just happening.

what do I really know?

Good question! What can be truly known?That's what we are here to find out, aside from all the stories that are being told about what is claimed to be known.

I still feel I need some convincing, but I don't expect you to do all the work

I wont be convincing you of anything, you will be working this out on your own or seeing wont happen. I can only point you. In the end I will have done nothing as there is no one to do any of it.


You are very welcome, I will be here as long as needs to be to help you see it! Let's do this!

[zenkitties]

FYI: I will be unable to access email for the next few hours, so if I don't respond for awhile you'll know why.

Also no problems, I'll be around on and off today as well. :)

[cfriedline]

Almost as if you are disecting it down to its very essence. If its really there, where is it? Find it for me.

I think I might be catching on to what you're saying. I'm getting hung up on the collection of cells, which is labelled "Charles," because I'm quite certain that it exists. But what I think you're saying is, there is no "I" separate from or outside of that collection of cells. Thoughts are just electrical impulses in the collection of cells labelled "brain," but they do not exist apart from that.

Am I on the right track here?