Breaking through views

[Dhvictoria]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
In my experience the perception of self is a compound of the different conditions and lifetime experiences; stories that the reactive mind churns on and on so that settles a belief of solidity, permanence, substance and seems objective and separate. This is the illusion. The fact is when we look in or out, there is connexion and nothing that lasts

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to start to question deeply what is underneath of these feelings of fedupness with suffering and disillusion with the world as it appears, Why with a single thought I may feel tension in the body, why my mind keeps being tormented with grasping, judging, conceit, and ill will, when my aspirations are altruistic and my practise committed to change and breaking through.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A method of enquiry that may help me to shift from who I think I am, to what/who I truly am. From how I think things are to how they are in reality, in experience; A shift in my perception of the world and 'myself' I would appreciate a Triratna guide.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practised Buddhism for 17 years and meditation for some 25. I am an ordained Buddhist in the Triratna tradition and I am seeking to break one by one all the barriers that my reactive mind has built and keeps building, There is nothing else for me to do, I have not time to waste, transformation is my commitment.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Dhvictoria]

New experiences keep arising; thought experiences and more physical experiences, are the physical/sensorial experiences more real than the mental? my legs walk or legs walk, my hands type or hands type? I laughed today at all this, it was a relief! while I get a guide, I keep observing and trying to relax in the experience without holding it so tight ...

[WesleySPK]

Hi Dhvictoria,

Is that how you'd like me to call you?

My name's Wesley and if you agree I would be happy to guide you :)

I want to start to question deeply what is underneath of these feelings of fedupness with suffering and disillusion with the world as it appears, Why with a single thought I may feel tension in the body, why my mind keeps being tormented with grasping, judging, conceit, and ill will, when my aspirations are altruistic and my practise committed to change and breaking through.

I see where you are coming from, thanks for the descriptions, it helps me to see what might be going on. I would like to start with this, what you wrote here.

But before doing then, I want to try a small exercise. Please grab a nearby object and look at it. Can you describe the act of looking at this object? If I were to tell you "look at this coffee mug", how would you describe what follows?

Looking forward to your answer,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,
It's good to hear from you, thanks.
I look at a pair of glasses; they are held by hand; there are glasses, and there is hand, there is window and other things to notice as the eyes fall in them. Not much else happening. Feeling quite relaxed after a weekend retreat. Thank you.

[Dhvictoria]

Sorry, I didn't reply to your question completely, Victoria will be fine, thanks

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

Glad to hear you're feeling relaxed after a weekend retreat :).

I look at a pair of glasses; they are held by hand; there are glasses, and there is hand, there is window and other things to notice as the eyes fall in them. Not much else happening.

Perfect. Now, let's put this exercise aside from a moment (we're going to come back to it).

Tell me more about this feeling of "fedupness" with suffering. What is the feeling of fedupness exactly, and what is the suffering, exactly?

What's the feeling of fedupness made of? Glasses you can reach out and touch them, you can perceive them with your senses. How do you perceive the feeling of fedupness, with your senses?

Look in your experience for the feeling of fedupness just like you looked at the glasses.

Best,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Good Morning Wesley,

This feeling of fedupness is a deep, deep tiredness of falling into aversion/grasping, or ill will.

I haven't yet learnt to see/experience myself as FULLY CONNECTED AND PART.

Day and night I fall into the vicious circle: a thought arises, -it already has grasping in it, then compounds causing even more unease. A feeling arises it has the seed of grasping or ill will in it, then it gets fattened into my body and acquires a particular flavour: heat/anger, cold/fear, upset stomach/ill will, tight throat/resentment, etc. In the end, I am an automaton, and seeing it makes me feel deeply tired and disenchanted.

Likewise, the way the world of people functions with its particular vicious circle; focus in accumulating wealth and short term solutions, self centeredness and separateness.

Yes, I 'know' for experience that there is a "gap" between experiencing feeling and grasping, a gap made of connexion and tranquility where the sense of "me , mine and I" are not present, I know for experience, that deep in that gap there is equanimity, flow and calm, but in the day to day, I still experience too much the automaton of "me", the flow happens in meditation, painting or doing any daily activity "in the moment"; no hooking to past or future imaginings.

So when you ask me to hold and object in my hand and see it, and what happens, it's uncomplicated to see the hand and the object first together then separate, it's pretty easy to be in that GAP of flow and lack of thought and self identification.

It's when the experience is emotionally charged by the triggers of memories, ideas, views that I EMBODY ME, MINE, I, THE AUTOMATON.
Thanks for your patience!

Warm wishes, Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Good evening Victoria,

Thanks for your description, I can tell this "fedupness" is taking up at least a good part of your energy.

Before diving into looking at the "I", I want to zoom in on this fedupness you describe. Try to answer as precisely as you can to these questions, even if it seems silly or obvious.

Day and night I fall into the vicious circle: a thought arises, -it already has grasping in it, then compounds causing even more unease

From where does the thought grasp exactly? And what does it grasp? Try waiting for these thoughts to come and observe what is happening in the moment.

A feeling arises it has the seed of grasping or ill will in it

Where in the thought is the seed exactly? And what is the seed made up of?

Looking forward to your answers,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Good morning Wesley,

And many thanks for your questions!

A thought arises, I normally don't notice it, when I notice it, from awareness and tranquility, I am "in the GAP" -this space where the perception of pleasure or/and pain are present and suspended, and I can observe the HABITUAL PERSISTENCE OF THOUGHT, not just this one thought.

In this aware and tranquil state of mind, I let it all pass like water in the river,

if there is no awareness of perception, I feel a fist in my stomach that tells me something is happening, then I realise that it's "the habit of hooking/grasping", and I am feeling irritated, so irritation becomes a fully blown poisonous feeling all in my body-mind, hopefully, so that I don't hurt anyone else!

What I am trying to say is that in my experience, the mere act of thinking. the mere act of touching, of seeing, of tasting, of smelling, etc give rise to suffering, on the other hand, I have experienced states of consciousness where the senses -including consciousness- where depleted and life, reality is freedom, emptiness of habitual beliefs. in between, I HAVE DEEPLY LEARNT TO BELIEVE MY THOUGHTS.

I don't know if I answered everything, my gratitude to you, Wesley,

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

I'm curious. Is the feeling / experience of "me" tied into in anywhere this feeling you describe?

if there is no awareness of perception, I feel a fist in my stomach that tells me something is happening, then I realise that it's "the habit of hooking/grasping", and I am feeling irritated, so irritation becomes a fully blown poisonous feeling all in my body-mind, hopefully, so that I don't hurt anyone else!

You say it "tells you something is happening". What, is really happening? In other words, the hooking / grasping, the "poisonous feeling", these are all descriptions, but they are not direct experiences.

What is the DIRECT experience of this "poisonous feeling"? In other words, what is seen / felt (bodily sensations) / heard / tasted? And now what is thought?

Have a nice evening,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

Such good and difficult questions today ... I had to go back to experience, or fall into generalising and conceptualising.

A similar 'direct' experience arose today again; there is a knot at the top of the stomach, it is hot, tight and full, it almost hurts physically, I/it burps, it wants to come out, I/it burps again and again, the knot is still there, the thought arises; " it is irritation for what that person did". 'I' blame, I judge, I reason, I resent 'other'; 'I am'.

This repetition of this 'duality of experience' that is; the body experiencing fully on the one side, and the "I" experience hooking/grasping and separating, on the other, together, is possibly what fedupness is made of, although I never saw it like this before.

A bit later though, I am/the legs are walking in the woods, the knot is still there, vaguely only, there is no irritation, there are only trees and strong smell of Spring earth, bird song, the greenery multiplying, and noticing going from body to thing and back, communing, it's exciting... there is no knot. everything expands and contracts, arises and falls and it's ok. it's joyful .

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

This repetition of this 'duality of experience' that is; the body experiencing fully on the one side, and the "I" experience hooking/grasping and separating, on the other, together, is possibly what fedupness is made of, although I never saw it like this before.

Ok so what we need to do is take a magnifying glass to all of this to see what's real, and what's being imagined.

Go back to the exercise where you grabbed some glasses (or any nearby object). Do it again. Feel them. Feel the texture. Observe the shapes and colors. Notice perhaps how thoughts will arise labelling or interpreting. Let that all be, but focus on what is really happening regardless of thinking or not. .

Now do the same for

the "I" experience hooking/grasping and separating

Can this "I' be experienced in any real way? If so, how?

The glasses can be perceived through your senses, touched, seen, even smelt. They don't disappear if you stop thinking of them.

What about this "I" and the hooking/grasping? Can this be seen, heard, or felt?

If not, how is this experienced? A thought?

You can go back to the exercise as often as you wish. Think of it as a flashlight while looking in the dark. Anything that goes away when you shine the flashlight on it, was it every really there or was it just imagined?

Have a nice evening,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Good morning Wesley,

Thanks for this exercise.

I held a pencil near me in my hand it felt this mass there and the hand here, I explored the texture, colour, markings and the potential as drawing entity, labelling/thinking was happening so fast!

I dropped labelling and let pencil and hand do the exploring, my vision blurred, soon there was not 'me' thinking or 'pencil' separate, just an energy mass moving, without boundaries, it was like that for the duration of the experiment, natural.

Thank you,

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

Answering your sending question ;
" how can experienced "I" in reality? or can I experience I?

When mind and heart, or body/mind are separate,- like in the example of holding and labelling the pencil- there is a perception of "I" as the judge, the person in charge, It feels convincing at first but then, there is not real experience, no entity, just the act of labelling. so, no, I can't find "I" , only the habit of judging, labelling, thinking , etc detached and separate, and perhaps sad

Thanks
Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

Great work.

When mind and heart, or body/mind are separate

If they are separate, where exactly is the division between the two?

there is a perception of "I" as the judge, the person in charge, It feels convincing at first but then, there is not real experience, no entity, just the act of labelling

Ok so, beyond the act of labelling or thinking, what is this "I" exactly? Notice the thoughts happening, notice the labelling even. Now where is the "thinker"? Where is the "judge", right here and now? What do you find?

detached and separate, and perhaps sad

What is detached from what? Are there 2 things in your experience right now, with a clear division point? If so, then I would ask the same question as the first : where is the division point exactly?

Best,
Wesley