I am ready to see

[Fledgling]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
that there is no separate entity who makes decisions, there is no doer, no thinker

What are you looking for at LU?
to realise my true nature. To see the differences between direct experience and engaging in thoughts, to feel and see the difference. To disconnect the mind stream and no believe the thoughts, and to realise when I am in thoughts and when no. And to dispel the belief that i am a person with a name

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
to be given practical guidance for me to see that the illusion was never real. Self-inquiry questions, and for me to feedback from direct experience, non-conceptual self inquiry , and honest, to find in my direct experience, and not something that I have read

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
seeking for 18 months or so. Greatest secret audiobook, and on youtube David Bingham, Spira, Tolle, Angelo, Nargis, etc

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hello Fledgling

elcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I can be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses that is actually here and now with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE). Through these we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work, with each “experiment” we point/ask questions and you look at your own direct experience and answer with 100% honesty, right now, right here, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful. If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Love
R

[Fledgling]

Hello Fledgling

elcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I can be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses that is actually here and now with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE). Through these we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work, with each “experiment” we point/ask questions and you look at your own direct experience and answer with 100% honesty, right now, right here, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful. If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

Love
R

Hi Rali,

Nice to meet you.

Amazing yes thank you! I agree ! I just have a meditation about breathing into the belly which I will continue . Apart from that I am ready ! Thanks so much

[poppyseed]

Hi Fledgling
Should I call you Fledgling or is there another name you would prefer?

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Here come your first questions:

1. What should be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

Please take your time with these, but for the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.
Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.. Please watch the below 30 second video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
Also which time zone are you in?
Love
R

[Mrbrown25]

1. What should be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. Time Zone I am in?

thank you so much for being my guide.

1. less attachment to personal thoughts
2. to feel lighter and less weighed down by heavy energies which are generated by my thoughts
3. I don't want to have very strong conditioning come up and me embodying them for too - or compulsions playing out
4. more ease and less heaviness
5. I am in England (GMT)

thanks!! I am cool with being called fledgling!

[poppyseed]

Hey fledgling
I would like to confirm that this is still Fledgling that I'm talking to as I see the account changed into MrBrown25. Do you have two accounts? Have you done the inquiry before?
Provided that I'm talking to the same person:)...

The thing about expectations is that it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. Ultimately, they are in a way of seeing clearly. The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. The rest are just stories about awakening. It is all much simpler and ordinary.

1. less attachment to personal thoughts
2. to feel lighter and less weighed down by heavy energies which are generated by my thoughts
4. more ease and less heaviness

It tends to happen

3. I don't want to have very strong conditioning come up and me embodying them for too - or compulsions playing out

There is usually some clean up time, where old beliefs will come up to be examined, but more about this later.

I am in England (GMT)

Great! I'm in South Africa so more or less the same (GMT+2)

Any problem with letting go of these hopes and expectations? Please let me know, though, if there is a particular one that you can’t
Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
R

[Fledgling]

I would like to confirm that this is still Fledgling that I'm talking to as I see the account changed into MrBrown25. Do you have two accounts? Have you done the inquiry before?
Provided that I'm talking to the same person:)...

haha yes it is still me. I had another account, but i have not heard from my guide for a number of weeks. So I started again. I hope that is ok. Thank you so much , I really appreciate it and I am here because i cannot bear my own suffering any more. I am driven to end the suffering. I appreciate very much your work and all guides here!

Any problem with letting go of these hopes and expectations? Please let me know, though, if there is a particular one that you can’t

i think i have an expectation that I will suffer less and be less reactive to triggers and less contracted heaviness But I will try to drop these expectations.

Now…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

a quick flash of anger, and then sadness manifesting as sensation in the face and chest. i'm ok with that there is no doer and no thinker, but I feel a sense of ownership as an experiencer, and a sense that this has to be me because this is all that i know! and I have seen rupert spira saying "who is the one that knows you have anger etc, who is the one that is aware of a sensation." So I have an intellectual understanding that I am the awareness. But why does there even need to be an "I" at all?

i get that there is no doer, thinker and decision maker - they are just conditioning playing out between the brain and the nervous system. But i do feel like there is someone here who can navigate and try to improve itself - yet at the same time i long for the freedom from the improver very much!

[poppyseed]

Hey
No problem, we can continue.

i think i have an expectation that I will suffer less and be less reactive to triggers and less contracted heaviness But I will try to drop these expectations.

That’s what usually instigates the whole seeking and what brought you here, so it’s done its purpose. It’s very important when starting an inquiry to be open to whatever comes up – the good, the bad and the ugly, it’s all one package 😊

…but I feel a sense of ownership as an experiencer, and a sense that this has to be me because this is all that i know! and I have seen rupert spira saying "who is the one that knows you have anger etc, who is the one that is aware of a sensation." So I have an intellectual understanding that I am the awareness.

As we agreed in the beginning, let’s leave all spiritual teachings behind and try not to fit and express what we find here in terms of these (nor previous personal experiences). Let’s try and take a fresh look and I mean LOOK – in terms of the 5 senses. So when you talk about the experiencer/awareness can you please describe what they look like in terms of the 5 senses – color/form, sound, taste, smell, sensation? Can the experiencer/awareness be separated from the experienced – is there a line (visible or invisible) that marks that? Are experiencer, experiencing, and the experience separate?
I can give you an exercise that can help your investigation:
Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience – a. Your fingers feeling cold because you are touching a cold can; or b. Cold! ? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Where is the feeler of cold? where is the border that marks the feeler of cold from sensation labelled "cold"? Observe the order in which the details appear
Please spend some time playing with this and other similar exercises -you can play with all the senses: seer, seeing, sight; hearer, hearing, sound: etc. Please really play with these and don’t just guess from previous experience. The more diligent, honest and open you are, the more productive the inquiry. Play with this the whole day and report back tomorrow
Love
R

[poppyseed]

One more thing that I forgot...

a quick flash of anger, and then sadness manifesting as sensation in the face and chest.

Please inspect that anger. Resistance exists for a reason. Notice if it's protecting something. Is it keeping you from looking further? It's OK for it to be there, acknowledge its presence and honor it. Ask what it is protecting and why it is here? It usually shows where to look, what needs to be explored. Please let me know what you found so we can take it further if need be
Love
R

[Fledgling]

Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience – a. Your fingers feeling cold because you are touching a cold can; or b. Cold! ? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Where is the feeler of cold? where is the border that marks the feeler of cold from sensation labelled "cold"? Observe the order in which the details appear
Please spend some time playing with this and other similar exercises -you can play with all the senses: seer, seeing, sight; hearer, hearing, sound: etc. Please really play with these and don’t just guess from previous experience. The more diligent, honest and open you are, the more productive the inquiry. Play with this the whole day and report back tomorrow

Thank you for this. I played with this for 24 hours. Just using direct experience without prior knowledge. The feeling of cold is more accurate with the actual sensation that the word cold. Then I did it with seeing and hearing. With seeing - there is seeing, and then there is a mind description of it. So there is just seeing. and just hearing. There is no feeler, only felt sensation. and there there is an interpretation of it in the mind. Same with seeing and hearing. There is no seer, no hearer. but direct seeing and hearing and then a mind description.

[Fledgling]

Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience – a. Your fingers feeling cold because you are touching a cold can; or b. Cold! ? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Where is the feeler of cold? where is the border that marks the feeler of cold from sensation labelled "cold"? Observe the order in which the details appear
Please spend some time playing with this and other similar exercises -you can play with all the senses: seer, seeing, sight; hearer, hearing, sound: etc. Please really play with these and don’t just guess from previous experience. The more diligent, honest and open you are, the more productive the inquiry. Play with this the whole day and report back tomorrow

Thank you for this. I played with this for 24 hours. Just using direct experience without prior knowledge. The feeling of cold is more accurate with the actual sensation that the word cold. Then I did it with seeing and hearing. With seeing - there is seeing, and then there is a mind description of it. So there is just seeing. and just hearing. There is no feeler, only felt sensation. and there there is an interpretation of it in the mind. Same with seeing and hearing. There is no seer, no hearer. but direct seeing and hearing and then a mind description.

[Fledgling]

Please inspect that anger. Resistance exists for a reason. Notice if it's protecting something. Is it keeping you from looking further? It's OK for it to be there, acknowledge its presence and honor it. Ask what it is protecting and why it is here? It usually shows where to look, what needs to be explored. Please let me know what you found so we can take it further if need be

There is anger and annoyance about all the effort that "I" put it to self development which is being rendered pointless. Underneath the anger then comes sadness, and then after that I feel really good, when they are both felt. So it was good to get triggered, cus it then released. I am sure it will come back, but I will do the same process again. No doer no thinker - i still find this absurd -there is a huge sense of ownership - thoughts like "why do i spend so long trying to manage myself if in the end i an just controlled by thoughts - well actually there is no I - just things happening - which i find bizarre because it feels like a me doing it. and to let go of a control would seem dangerous

[poppyseed]

Hey fledgling
Good effort!
First things first, let’s deal with the resistance.

No doer no thinker - i still find this absurd -there is a huge sense of ownership - thoughts like "why do i spend so long trying to manage myself if in the end i an just controlled by thoughts - well actually there is no I - just things happening - which i find bizarre because it feels like a me doing it. and to let go of a control would seem dangerous

What you write seems a bit confusing. It sounds like there is a lot of intellectual narrative which contradicts your personal experience. First, you’re saying there is no doer and thinker (is this an observation or intellectual understanding?). If there is no doer/choser/thinker and there has never been one, why do you expect things to change. If you haven’t been in control before how can not being in control in future be any different and dangerous? What is going to change if “you” never did/said anything? It’s not like the “I” will stop to exist – it never existed in the first place. Like you said “thinking, doing, decision-making are happening” on their own. So why would these change all of a sudden? I’m sure you believed in Santa when you were little. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? There were still presents under the tree, right? 😊 Is this clear?

Let’s agree to no more intellectual statements from now on. If you haven’t seen it for yourself, you are not allowed to use it. Let me remind you that we are not here to assess your intellectual capabilities but to help you look where you need to look. It actually could be quite detrimental to your inquiry, as you try to match what you see with what somebody else saw, which is not always the case. Please remember, there are no right and wrong answers but what you see at the moment, which is a lot more helpful for me to point you in the right direction. So we’ll go through the whole process thoroughly and you will look for yourself. No intellectual understanding will help you see, only actual LOOKING. If I ask you what is the colour of your shirt, you don’t look in a book, or watch a video, or try to remember what colour shirt you put this morning – you simply LOOK NOW. In your answers please stick to a description of what you actually see with no thought content and conclusions - just facts. So from the example with the shirt you just report the colour of the shirt (no theory why is the colour like that - e.g., diffraction :) ) Do we have an agreement?

Back to your exercise…

The feeling of cold is more accurate with the actual sensation that the word cold.

Good effort! Although… you didn’t answer the question fully. I asked you if the awareness/experiencer is separate from the experienced. Can awareness of cold be separate from the sensation “cold”? You said that you have an intellectual understanding that you are the awareness. So where is this awareness? Does it have a colour? Does it speak, taste, etc? If awareness is the subject and the senses are the object (e.g., sensation “cold”), where is the border that separates them? Can awareness exist on its own?
One more thing…

There is no seer, no hearer. but direct seeing and hearing and then a mind description.

Is there an indirect seeing and hearing? Is direct experiencing a special mode of looking?
Please spend some more time with the exercises and please NO INTELECTUALISING!

Love
R

[Fledgling]

ok! Now I understand!!! Thanks for being strict and clearing this up!!! Direct experience, and no prior knowledge or things i have learnt. Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify and to write what you have written

so. To answer the questions.

What you write seems a bit confusing. It sounds like there is a lot of intellectual narrative which contradicts your personal experience. First, you’re saying there is no doer and thinker (is this an observation or intellectual understanding?). If there is no doer/choser/thinker and there has never been one, why do you expect things to change. If you haven’t been in control before how can not being in control in future be any different and dangerous? What is going to change if “you” never did/said anything? It’s not like the “I” will stop to exist – it never existed in the first place. Like you said “thinking, doing, decision-making are happening” on their own. So why would these change all of a sudden? I’m sure you believed in Santa when you were little. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa? There were still presents under the tree, right? 😊 Is this clear?

super clear now! thanks! previously i thought i had to look at my beliefs and challenge them, but i see now what we are doing!! we are looking!!

Let’s agree to no more intellectual statements from now on. If you haven’t seen it for yourself, you are not allowed to use it. Let me remind you that we are not here to assess your intellectual capabilities but to help you look where you need to look. It actually could be quite detrimental to your inquiry, as you try to match what you see with what somebody else saw, which is not always the case. Please remember, there are no right and wrong answers but what you see at the moment, which is a lot more helpful for me to point you in the right direction. So we’ll go through the whole process thoroughly and you will look for yourself. No intellectual understanding will help you see, only actual LOOKING. If I ask you what is the colour of your shirt, you don’t look in a book, or watch a video, or try to remember what colour shirt you put this morning – you simply LOOK NOW. In your answers please stick to a description of what you actually see with no thought content and conclusions - just facts. So from the example with the shirt you just report the colour of the shirt (no theory why is the colour like that - e.g., diffraction :) ) Do we have an agreement?

Deal!!! thank you!!

Good effort! Although… you didn’t answer the question fully. I asked you if the awareness/experiencer is separate from the experienced. Can awareness of cold be separate from the sensation “cold”? You said that you have an intellectual understanding that you are the awareness. So where is this awareness? Does it have a colour? Does it speak, taste, etc? If awareness is the subject and the senses are the object (e.g., sensation “cold”), where is the border that separates them? Can awareness exist on its own?

No the awareness is not separate from sensations. Awareness cannot be found. There is no border. its all one

Is there an indirect seeing and hearing? Is direct experiencing a special mode of looking?
Please spend some more time with the exercises and please NO INTELECTUALISING!

No direct experiencing(e.g. seeing and hearing) is the only mode and nothing else

[poppyseed]

Hi Fledgling

No the awareness is not separate from sensations. Awareness cannot be found. There is no border. its all one

Please clarify what do you mean with awareness cannot be found – as a separate entity or at all? Please describe your experience with a bit more detail...
So where is the experiencer then? Do you still feel ownership of the experience?
Let’s do another experiment. Close your eyes and imagine you are holding a cup of coffee. Imagine the warm sensation of holding the cup, the weight, form and size of the cup, the aroma, the colour of the coffee, the taste. Imagine as vividly as you can…
Now open your eyes… Where did the cup of coffee go? Was it ever here? How about the sensations you felt while imagining? Were they real? Were they happening?
Focus on the experiencer. Is it an image in the mind or something perceived through the senses?
Can you see a self, hear it, touch it, smell and taste it? Can you find the experiencer?
Is there an “I” or a “self” in touching, smelling, tasting, seeing, and hearing? Test it with each sense.
How and when is self experienced? Is it constantly here or does it come and go? What is here right now?
Love
R