EllejBee ad nauseum

[ElleBee]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That this is the underlying truth of everything, but that the pattern of self still rules currently, although I want to see the truth more clearly and consistently. Right now it is sporadic and the mind looks for distractions (which I notice). Some assistance would be helpful so that I do not "drag my feet".

What are you looking for at LU?
A push, or to be held accountable for "success". I don't know anyone else interested in this, in fact the times I have mentioned it to so-called like-minded folk (and I've known quite a few), they direct the conversation back to the false reality and how to "fix" it, which is what they are interested in -- not the truth. This is the first time I've encountered apparently truly like-minded people who are willing co communicate. Like the real deal. So I would like to do this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be on the same playing field, on the same page with the person I am having a conversation with, and to benefit in some way from the interaction. This would be truly new for me. I know I am not awakened (I have moments of clarity but they do not last), but I DO know what it is and what it is not. I don't know anyone personally who knows what it is, although it seems many believe they do. This isn't anything that I can discuss with family or friends. The best I can do so far is strangers on the internet, and usually that devolves quickly into egoic posturing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Probably about 12-15 years of "seeking". Reiki, akashic records, dream analysis, crystals, even channeling (where I was the channeler!), and many others. They all felt false in some way, even when others gave me extremely positive feedback (channeling and dream analysis). Came across Jed McKenna, David Carse, Douglas Adams and a few others and I started to realize what was actually going on. But I still feel outside it, like it eludes me, even when I know the truth is that there is no me. But the personality/self pattern is strong.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[TeeKa112]

Hello, my name is Trisha and I can be your guide here, if you wish.


As a guide to your process of seeing that there is no separate self, I will support and empower you to do your own experiential search.


As you mention, you have searched before coming here. This search was meditating, reading, listening to others, watching videos and so on. It gave you meditative experiences, we call states. But all this did not take you to seeing that there is no separate entity 'you', and never was.
And yes, I have been there, too.


Here we work differently. I will give you questions and exercises, we call Pointers, that will help you to investigate and LOOK for yourself.
We work only with Direct or Actual Experiences, hearing, seeing, tasting, touching, smelling and noticing of thoughts arising.


Before we start this process, here is some important information:


This is your process, so please answer and report back with total honesty and only from your own experience.

For the time we are working together, please put aside all other “spiritual” material, being it books, audios, videos etc. If you have a meditation practice please continue, if you feel like doing so and if none of the above is involved.

To keep the process going, it is important that we communicate daily.
Depending on different time zones and the improbabilities of life, this is not always possible or sometimes you might need more time to investigate, but we will inform each other if this is the case.


Can you read the disclaimer and confirm reading and accepting?
Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/


Can you also read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” and confirm reading and accepting?
Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041



Something practical: There can be glitches on this site, so better prepare your answers in some Text Program and then copy it into your answer posting.


And please can you learn how to use the Quotation Function?
Here is a link to a video with how to use it.



And: It is helpful to use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


OK, can we get started?


Expectations can stand in the way of seeing. We want both to be clear about yours.
Can you please answer the following questions?

How will life change?

How will you change?

What will be different?

What is missing?



Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text.
Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.


Please answer questions individually,

remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

And please, what name do you want me to call you?
What is the time zone you are in?



Thank you and looking forward to hearing from you

Trisha

[ElleBee]

Hi Trisha!

Thank you for this, very much. I'll jump right in. To start...

And please, what name do you want me to call you?
What is the time zone you are in?

You can call me Lisa. My time zone is Eastern Standard Time.

I did read the disclaimer and the Liberation Unleashed is not..., watched the quotation video and preview information.

To the questions:

How will life change?

I don't know that it will. Anything is possible. My interest is in seeing the truth. I don't plan on entertaining stories about how much my life will improve if only I can achieve X. X here being so-called enlightenment.

How will you change?

Intellectually I know that "I" don't exist. So if I don't exist, the story could take any number of twists and turns. And I understand that it (the story) will continue regardless of seeing or not seeing the truth. Conventionally-speaking, I'm already kind of unusual, so I expect that will continue (probably).

What will be different?

Clarity. Seeing the truth would mean clarity. Not being fooled. Not being baited into falling into the character, wasting emotional energy on untruths. "I" expect "I" might even have more energy to do interesting things with.

What is missing?

Again, clarity. A deep understanding, a foundation of truth. I'm tired of fooling myself and KNOWING that I'm fooling myself. I'm not mad about it, but it's just possible that this consistent focus on this one thing will bring it about. I do believe that consistent focus can bring about desired change.

Thank you for your help with this, much appreciated!

Lisa

[TeeKa112]

Hi Lisa,

I did read the disclaimer and the Liberation Unleashed is not..., watched the quotation video and preview information.

Good that you read everything.

Do you also accept the disclaimers?


Your expectations are reasonable.

But always good to remember that any expectation could prevent you from SEEING.

Because it will be different :-) of any thought or idea or opinion.

X here being so-called enlightenment.

Not sure what is meant here, with the word 'enlightenment':

Seeing that there is no separate ‘I’ or 'self' is a shift in perception. It is not a state.

But then, SEEING is different for everybody.

And it is, or can be, the beginning of a process.


And now, let me ask you:

What comes up when it is said, that there is no self, never has been and never will be?



Lisa, nice meeting you and looking forward to your answers.

Trisha

[ElleBee]

Hi Trisha!

Do you also accept the disclaimers?

I do accept the disclaimers. I am not alarmed at any of them.

Not sure what is meant here, with the word 'enlightenment':

Seeing that there is no separate ‘I’ or 'self' is a shift in perception. It is not a state.

I was using the conventional term, which is in common mis-use because hardly anybody knows what it means.

What comes up when it is said, that there is no self, never has been and never will be?

It's something that I can see sporadically, especially when I am reading certain material or listening to certain books. For instance, I have been reading the Gateless Gatecrashers (I am at Chandi's story). It seems like I can really immerse and see clearly, have an understanding of what is -- that everything is One, seeing briefly through the veil. But then regular responsibilities, daily activities, interactions with people, etc. take their toll on my attention and then that understanding only remains intellectually. I will say that my reactiveness to everyday nonsense has been decreasing, but I cannot honestly say it's not there.

So rereading that last paragraph I can see where "I" am deluding myself because "I" doesn't exist and can't achieve anything. The feeling of dissatisfaction is there, but not "I". Hmmm.

The reason I requested this is because it seems similar to learning a new language -- if you get a chance to speak with a native speaker of the language you want to learn, that can be very helpful. I am hoping that redirection and calling me out on my bullshit will help with clarity. This "homework" is a step in the right direction, a focusing on the truth.

Thank you for help with this. This is an amazing service that you provide.

Is it ok if I continue to read the Gateless Gatecrashers, or should I hold off on all reading?

Thank you!

Lisa

[TeeKa112]

Hi Lisa,

I do accept the disclaimers.

Good

I am not alarmed at any of them.

Very good

I was using the conventional term, which is in common mis-use because hardly anybody knows what it means.

OK :-)

What comes up when it is said, that there is no self, never has been and never will be?

This question is also checking for fears.

You do not mention any, rather you mention excitement, longing for LOOKING into the right direction.
Very nice, Lisa, and probably very helpful for what we are doing here.

Actually it is only fears and expectations that can prevent SEEING.

But just to be sure:
Do you notice any fears, that is contractions in your body when reading this question?

Is it ok if I continue to read the Gateless Gatecrashers, or should I hold off on all reading?

Yes, it is ok to read the GG. You seem to be clear that for the time being it is the only ‘spiritual’ book, podcast, video.

But also here, please, do not expect the process will be done in exactly the same way.


We will be working with DIRECT OR ACTUAL, RAW EXPERIENCING.

I will give you questions or exercises, direct pointers and you will LOOK, that is LOOKING here stands for all our 5 senses, looking, hearing, tasting, smelling, sensing/touching and noticing of thoughts arising.

That’s it.

Learning to LOOK Exercises
Direct or Actual Experiences

Here is an example what is meant when it is said that we are using only Direct or Actual Experience to look for something.

We can try to think about something, trying to understand or finding knowledge, remembering or asking somebody else
or we can directly LOOK and SEE.


When I ask you: how is the weather in your place right now?


You can:

- go out of the door or open a window and

look at the sky, you can see blue sky, the sun, or clouds or rain or snow or the moon, you can see the trees move
you can feel the sun or a cold wind or rain or snow on your face
you can smell rain or snow or wet earth
you can taste rain or snow
you can also hear the wind moving the trees or hearing rain drops falling and hitting a roof

or you can:


- open a weather App, read about how the weather is supposed to be in your place right now,
you can also remember last nights weather forecast you saw on TV or on your computer
or you can ask somebody else what they know about the weather in your place right now


So here we see the world of direct or actual experiences
and the world of thinking and thoughts and ideas and opinions about experience.

Here in our investigating process we use only direct, actual, raw experiences.


Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Sensation (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Are you clear about this or would you like any further clarification?



Bye for now

Trisha

[ElleBee]

Hi Trisha!

Regarding your questions...

What comes up when it is said, that there is no self, never has been and never will be?

Do you notice any fears, that is contractions in your body when reading this question?

I would have had fears arising from this question probably only a few weeks ago. Something is changing there though. The reading of GG currently, along with prior to this David Carse's "Perfect Brilliant Stillness", has done something perspective-wise, and this is very new. I had been experiencing frustration and fears (the fears mostly were regarding my job/spouse/home/pets, fearing their potential loss in the event of any realization of no self). There was a ducking of the truth that does not seem to be happening now. I can't say that I can SEE that there is no self, but I can definitely sense it.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Sensation (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Are you clear about this or would you like any further clarification?

Yes, this is clear enough. Have been observing thoughts. There's starting to be a bit of distance now when they happen. This is especially helpful when a repetitive though occurs such as "I don't like [blank]".

Thank you for working with me on this!

Lisa

[TeeKa112]

Hi Lisa,

all sounds very good and I sense that you are at a very good place already.


So let’s start:

Sit down quietly for about 20 minutes. If you find the time, you can do it more than once.
Please have a little something to eat or chew on :-)

Watch carefully. What is around? What can be noticed?


We are using DE (Direct, Actual Experiencing) only, we are not interested in the content of thoughts, that may or will arise about any of the senses.


Sights: What is SEEN? Forms, Colours; can you notice how the objects get labelled?

Sounds: What is HEARD? From around you as well as from the body.

Sensations: What is FELT? Hands and arms and legs, bottom, head, shoulders; what about the meeting points of bottom or back with chair or cloths?

Smells: in case there are any, what is smelled?

Taste: What is tasted?

Now: Notice the thoughts that are arising: as images? as sounds? as a tune or as a voice? as words?

Mostly thoughts appear in streams that tell stories, about past or future, or what I should or shouldn’t have done.

What is noticed here?


1. Please report on 1 or 2 items that are noticed for every sense and the thoughts.

2. Can you find anything else? Anything that is not on the list?

Please LOOK very thoroughful and don’t let anything escape. Can any other experience be noticed, that doesn’t belong in one of the categories?


3. Now, LOOK again around and LOOK at the objects. Can you LOOK at them without the label/name? Can you LOOK at SEEING itself? Observe the pure process of seeing. This is DE.




Relax and enjoy the exercise.i

I am looking forward to your findings.

Trisha

[ElleBee]

OK, Trisha, here goes!

1. Please report on 1 or 2 items that are noticed for every sense and the thoughts.

Sights:
The shadow play from the sun shining on the tree in front of the house. The shadows of leaves and branches appear on the wall next to the window. There is movement of leaves and movement of shadows when the wind blows.

Reflection from the bay window to two other walls of the shadows of the leaves of the tree, moving.

Brightness of the sunlight upon part of the house outside the window.

Sounds:
Noisy podcast husband is watching.
The continuous him of the fan.
The nails of one of the dogs as they scrape the floor while he plays with a ball.
Commercials on television at low volume as unobtrusive background noise.
Low hum of the airconditioning.

Sensations:
The back top of the chair pressing a bit uncomfortably into the shoulderblades. Thought: Funny how I put up with being uncomfortable when I could move.

Feet not flat but pressed upward on the balls of the feet, putting pressure there. Thought: Again, funny how I put up with the uncomfortable position so long without noticing it.

Pressure on the back of the forearms as they rest against the table while typing. Thought: Another body part that is actually uncomfortable. I need to pay more attention to this.
Pressure on the bottom and back of thighs as they press down against the metal chair. Thought: Arghhh! My whole body is achy and I just sit there and continue it.

Smells:
No scent but a coolness of the air. Thought: I should have done this part earlier when I brought home some sushi rolls.

Taste:
Saltiness of soy sauce. Thought: I should have brushed my teeth, then I wouldn't still taste the soy sauce.
Smoothness and coolness of water. Thought: I really need to drink more water.

2. Can you find anything else? Anything that is not on the list?

Yes! Earlier I played a youtube video of The Muppets singing Mr. Blue Sky. It is now a continuous thought playing the song over and over again.

3. Now, LOOK again around and LOOK at the objects. Can you LOOK at them without the label/name? Can you LOOK at SEEING itself? Observe the pure process of seeing. This is DE.

Initially, no, I was not able to look at them without a label. It felt similar to looking at words on a piece of paper or a sign: the brain automatically reads the words. But then the direction to LOOK at SEEING itself made a slight change. It became a more "artistic" kind of looking. Shadows, colors, shapes, textures. This seems like a different type of labeling, but labeling nevertheless. If "I" space out a bit this is easier to do, but I'm not sure if that's what you are talking about when you say look at seeing.

There isn't any "me" looking, looking and seeing are going on continuously, and then the labels get slapped on. But this feels like intellectualization. Once in a while it happens that the seeing happens, but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.

Will try some more and update you.

Thanks!

Lisa

[ElleBee]

Trisha,

OK, it's morning and I'm sitting here with my coffee with one of my dogs on the couch. TV is on. An "annoying" commercial came on and upon placing that label "annoying" on it, "I" stopped and questioned that. I did see clearly that that was the mind placing a label on something that was neutral. I caught it in the act!

Then I started reading GG some more. Came to this part:

It’s not about stopping those labels—it’s about seeing that they’re not
stuck TO anything. They’re just labels, hovering there, like all fiction, like any fictional character, Harry Potter, Jane Eyre, Xena the
Warrior Princess. Just labels, that don’t actually refer to something
in reality

Haha! Busted!

One of the best parts of this is continuously finding that "I" cannot force understanding, but understanding comes in its own good time! Which isn't usually very long at all, but it won't be at the time that the "I" wants it to be. So funny!

Great stuff here!

Lisa

[ElleBee]

Now I have a funny image of the mind as kind of like a cartoon factory assembly line printing out labels and slapping them on to everything with a paddle wheel-type mechanism. Just keeps happening continuously. This is the image I get of the mind. This is what produces the illusion of the self. "I" is the judge that makes the labels, but not really because there is no I. But it appears that there is and "I" just go with it unquestioningly, until now.

[ElleBee]

OK, so deodorant was being applied, and it dropped from the hand that was applying it. Irritation surged immediately as it rolled away and the label "clumsy" was applied. Attention focused on it to observe this sudden surge of annoyance/irritation and it immediately dropped away and it was still and quiet, emotion absent.

It's challenging to use precise words.

There is a sense of worry that "I" is trying to be a good student and faking this. "I" has always been a good student.

We shall see.

[ElleBee]

And "I" could be looking for a pat on the head and reassurance that it is a good student, so watch out. This isn't about that. This is subterfuge against the "I".

[TeeKa112]

Hi Lisa,

a lot of very good investigating :-)


This first exercise is for getting into a good touch with

- experiencing, which is done with the 5 senses, seeing, hearing, tasting, sensing and smelling plus the noticing of thoughts arriving.

- and with awareness, or the awar-ing or SEEING of what is experienced, of what is happening here/now.


It is not about the thought-contents, about thinking or understanding or pondering about what is going on, that would be just thoughts. And we are not interested in thoughts.

Funny how I put up with being uncomfortable when I could move.
Again, funny how I put up with the uncomfortable position so long without noticing it.
Another body part that is actually uncomfortable. I need to pay more attention to this.
Arghhh! My whole body is achy and I just sit there and continue it.

Interesting, isn’t it?

Unpleasant sensations were felt, and addressed.


Are you aware of these sensations being felt before?

2. Can you find anything else? Anything that is not on the list?

Can any other experience be noticed, that doesn’t belong in one of the categories?

Yes! Earlier I played a youtube video of The Muppets singing Mr. Blue Sky. It is now a continuous thought playing the song over and over again.

Why yes? It was asked to notice the experiences of the 5 senses AND thoughts arising.


You report your thoughts that arose ase tunes, music and words and were noticed.

Good noticing!


So, please can you LOOK again: can any other experience be noticed, that was not mentioned in the list?

Now, LOOK again around and LOOK at the objects. Can you LOOK at them without the label/name? Can you LOOK at SEEING itself? Observe the pure process of seeing. This is DE.

Initially, no, I was not able to look at them without a label. It felt similar to looking at words on a piece of paper or a sign: the brain automatically reads the words. But then the direction to LOOK at SEEING itself made a slight change. It became a more "artistic" kind of looking. Shadows, colors, shapes, textures. This seems like a different type of labeling, but labeling nevertheless.

Very good observation.
you are right, everything is labelling.

A minimal labelling or description were are using here, just for our purpose of clarity in our dialogue.
For Sight actually colour and shape is the most basic.

If "I" space out a bit this is easier to do, but I'm not sure if that's what you are talking about when you say look at seeing.

Right, the more relaxed, the better the LOOKING.
SEEING can happen only in relaxation, often after a more intense investigation or LOOKING.

There isn't any "me" looking, looking and seeing are going on continuously, and then the labels get slapped on. But this feels like intellectualization. Once in a while it happens that the seeing happens, but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.

Good! We will look into this ‘me’ or ‘I’ more tomorrow.
Also some of your other observations we will address sone.

And yes, watching out for thoughts of ambition, unadequacy, faking is happening here :-)

Just labels, that don’t actually refer to something in reality

Exactly.


So let’s investigate deeper ‘labels’, thought-content, thought stories, fiction:



Actual/Direct Experience - Apple


Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

If not, just google the pic of an apple.


When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple. »


What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?


Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something...because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, that is directly experienced, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched) Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known


However, is an apple actually known?


There are differnt 'groups' of labels:

some point to 'objects': apple, table, dog, tree, human being
some are necessary as points of social reference: university, police, hospital, motherland, husband,
and some are pointing to fantasies or illusions: unicorn, Santa Claus, batman, I, me, mine

Lisa, there is a lot of stuff here. Take good time, read everything several times and come back when ready.

Until then,

Trisha

[ElleBee]

Hi Trisha, again I will dive right in. I'm going to send this to you but will review it again and see if there are any additional points to add, probably tomorrow.

Are you aware of these sensations being felt before?

If this refers to the bodily sensations, then no, not before being directed to look.

So, please can you LOOK again: can any other experience be noticed, that was not mentioned in the list?

If I deliberately think about how there is no "I", then things get quieter and there is the breathing occurring, which is generally completely ignored. There's a backdrop, an existence, that just keeps being, like a canvas for a painting. It's subtle but it's there.

SEEING can happen only in relaxation, often after a more intense investigation or LOOKING.

This is good to know. That's why I had additional messaging to you, it was the next morning when for whatever reason, guessing more relaxed, that there were additional "insights" to report.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

By whom? "I" is busy slapping labels on it (what type of apple, is it an eating apple or cooking apple, does it have bruises, is it small, large, or medium sized, etc.). There IS taste of an apple, the sensation of holding an apple, the smell of an apple recorded in memory somewhere. But these are thoughts and no thought is real (or is as "real" as Batman!). The distinction here seems to be that even if the apple is "real", the thoughts about the apple are not, anymore than thoughts about Batman.

However, is an apple actually known?

No. Admittedly this is logic, but give 10 people the same type of apple and you have 10 different versions of "knowing" the apple.
And doing it without logic: No, because it is "known" through thoughts and thoughts about anything are unreal.

Maybe more tomorrow...

Lisa