Towards what is Real

[spin48]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I don't know who I am. When I touch the sense of not knowing what or who I am, all of my life becomes irrelevant and it becomes clear that the only 'thing' that matters is finding the truth to that question.
Yet most of the time, I still refer, talk and act as if I did know who I am, as the sense of being an individual takes over.

What are you looking for at LU?
To dissolve that sense of individual independent separate feel-state and ideally know who I am and live from that. And to see my blindspots and ways I'm not seeing clearly. Guidance in what are the unseen beliefs that make me addicted to feeling seperate or make me scared of seeing that its all empty.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I don't exactly know. Either pointers towards my blockages and blindspots, support in facing them and letting them into my experience, or simply seeing that even with proper guidance, I am basically alone in this path and pushing me towards full autonomy.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I spontaneously asked myself as a kid 'who am I' and found out I did not know what I truly am. That receded and I was a 'radical' atheist and rational up to the age of 22.
I had a spiritual experience on mushrooms when I was 22 where it was revealed that 1- all is one, one is all, 2- everything is connected, 3- everything is in pure harmony, 4- all suffering is inevitable, and 5- it's all nothing.
Then I read all the spiritual non-dual direct path books, of Eckart Tolle, Adyashanti, Jeff Foster and the like.
I did vipassana at 27 and had a powerful opening at the end that lasted 5 days where I was very high. I'm going through a rough breakup which is bringing up all core issues and childhood issues to the surface for the last couple months. And I was at a retreat with Adya in october that lead to a powerful opening of love recognizing itself and access to a soft felt sense of oneness and emptiness that lasted for a couple of days.
I've been exploring polyamory and freeing my sexual energy in that last months also which has lead to a couple of moments of feeling I'm making love to life itself when I breathe or eat or hear music or gaze at objects.
I feel I'm in the middle of a beautiful yet painful transformation and I oscillate from bouts of anger/hate/feelings of lack/unworthiness/not belonging to moments of love, courage, trust.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[suma]

Hi,

my name is Nina and I'm happy to assist you.
My role is to point by using exercises and questions.

Is there a different name you want me to use during the exploration?


Please learn to use the quote function, here are the video instructions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Are you ready? Let's see if there's a me as you knew it...



Warmly

Nina

[spin48]

Hi!
I'm ready.
My name is JF or Jean-Francois

[suma]

Dear Jean-Francois,


Welcome to LU!
Great you made it here.
Thank you very much for your patience, you had to wait quite a long time.

Before we start just a few more generalities:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day.
If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience.
Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading, you-tubes and so on for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.
If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue.


And finally: it is always advisable to save your post in a medium on your device. (Word or whatever)
Sometimes the page is not so stable, one never knows…good to have a copy saved.



So to get started and to become a bit more aware of what your expectations about this exploration are,
could you please answer in your own words the following questions:

1) How might life change when you directly experience the truth of no-self ?
2) How would you change then?
3) What will be different?
4) Can you name and specify what is missing presently to see the truth?



With kind regards

nina

[spin48]

1) How might life change when you directly experience the truth of no-self ?
2) How would you change then?
3) What will be different?
4) Can you name and specify what is missing presently to see the truth?

I feel a certain relaxation will affect the experience of life when it's seen that there are no individuals and no individual self in my body. I feel it'll be a lot more calm to be alive without having to take care of my sense of self.

I would interract in a way that I'm not concerned about making myself better or liked or perfect or whatever. I would simply act and not evaluate what that makes of me.

I don't know what will be different. Everything in the sense that the motive behind actions won't be self-motivated. And I don't know what that will look like. And nothing in the sense that I'll still eat, talk, sleep, see, hear, etc. but without and interlay of 'me' experiencing 'this'

I don't feel anything is missing per se. I feel it's the opposite, there's too much. There's this attempt to make 'no-self' mine...
Everytime I glimpse the fact that it's all empty of individuals, there's thoughts that come in and recreate a 'me' who's experiencing the experience. And when I try to deconstruct that...it's a vicious circle. As though I'm seeking awakening for me, but I get there's no 'me' but I still feel there's a 'me' and then saying that 'me' is to much reinforces that there's a 'me' to get rid of...
but saying ok there's no 'me' so nothing to do...doesn't change the fact that I feel there's a 'me'...

all that to say I don't feel anything is missing, but more that there's an overlay on direct experience

[suma]

Dear Jean-Francois,


thank you very much for the lovely answers.

So let’s start to get in touch with direct experience.

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is
embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time.
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects.
Just look at the seeing itself.
Observe the pure process of seeing.
This is direct experience (DE)

Please let me know how you go.

Warmly

nina

[spin48]

Hey!
Sorry for the delay, I will try to tell you when I'm unavailable for some time if it happens again. I was going through an emotional wave.

So as the labels drop, I still feel I am looking at objects.
If I relax more, I don't know what is the I that is looking, but there feels to be an empty space about where my eyes are through which the looking happens.
If I relax the label objects, then the experience of seeing objects shifts to seeing colors and textures (but not fully, objects still feel distinct in a very subtle way)
And again, if I relax more, I can get a tingle that the image is actually self-aware, the looker is just a thought, but only lightly, I still feel quite deeply that I-the looker is located in the body/head and doing the looking. (because when my eyelids close, the seeing ceases, so that experience creates a story that is convicing : ''I am looking through my eyes'') and that story derived from the experience is sticky... do you have another story that is closer to reality that could help me see through the illusion that there's a me looking, even though images and seeing only arises when 'my' eyes are open)

thx :)

[suma]

Dear Jean-Francois,

Sorry for the delay, I will try to tell you when I'm unavailable for some time if it happens again. I was going through an emotional wave.

Yes, OK. I’m glad you made here back again. ( :

So as the labels drop, I still feel I am looking at objects.
If I relax more, I don't know what is the I that is looking, but there feels to be an empty space about where my eyes are through which the looking happens.
If I relax the label objects, then the experience of seeing objects shifts to seeing colors and textures (but not fully, objects still feel distinct in a very subtle way)

Very good!

And again, if I relax more, I can get a tingle that the image is actually self-aware, the looker is just a thought, but only lightly, I still feel quite deeply that I-the looker is located in the body/head and doing the looking. (because when my eyelids close, the seeing ceases, so that experience creates a story that is convicing : ''I am looking through my eyes'') and that story derived from the experience is sticky... do you have another story that is closer to reality that could help me see through the illusion that there's a me looking, even though images and seeing only arises when 'my' eyes are open)

Yes, we are going to look at the ‘looking’ to trace whether there is something like a separate entity doing anything or not.
There will be exercises to point to any hidden idea of an I, or a doer.


So to get more in touch with direct experience:


Please have a look at an apple.
If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.
Otherwise any fruit will do.


When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’;
and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure?
Colour is known and thoughts are known.
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…
because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘.

What you know for sure is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

(Please answer the green marked questions)

Warmly

nina

[spin48]

What is known for sure?

colour, texture, touch if I touch it, thoughts about it don't affect the experience of it, and...there's no 'it'

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

no, there's obviously no apple apart from my mind

However, is an apple actually known?

an objective apple apart from that which you described (the sense experience and thoughts about the sense experience and some fixed concepts)


So, without looking to the mind, there's only sense-experience, and a story about an apple.
it's empty of seperation...it's my unconscious beliefs that 'fill it' with a sense of being and independant 'object'
without that 'mind-filling', it wouldn't feel seperate, and as I look around, I can start to feel my mind is constantly adding seperation and 'independant object feel' to everything!

[suma]

Dear Jean-Francois,

So, without looking to the mind, there's only sense-experience, and a story about an apple.
it's empty of seperation...it's my unconscious beliefs that 'fill it' with a sense of being and independant 'object'
without that 'mind-filling', it wouldn't feel seperate, and as I look around, I can start to feel my mind is constantly adding seperation and 'independant object feel' to everything!

Beautiful clear answers. Lovely.

So now please watch in the same manner your daily activities.
Try it as many times throughout the day as you can:

Split daily activities simply into the sense experience:

colour/image,
sound,
smell,
taste,
sensation,
thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:


Seeing a cup, simply====== image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply === smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply == sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply ===== taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply === sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply ===== thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories
(which are all actual/direct experience)
and report back how you go.

Please give some examples from daily living breaking them down in the above manner.


Warmly

nina

[spin48]

So it's slowly oscillating more and more that the objects I perceive are empty of objectivity.
This started happening when I was watching someone dance and it was sense that the image I see of there body is all there is, there is no one in the body, and even more than that, there is no objective body, but simply an image of color and texture moving.
Before I go deeper in that, I need reassurance that I am on the right track, as it feels as though not only everything is going to empty out, but also everyone. That's scary. I need reassurance that this is okay. That you also see this. That I'm not the only one seeing that maybe no one is here in a way...

thx, JF

[suma]

Dear Jean-Francois,

This started happening when I was watching someone dance and it was sense that the image I see of there body is all there is,
there is no one in the body, and even more than that, there is no objective body, but simply an image of color and texture moving.

Yes, that’s the way things are seen when just looked at without any prior knowing.
You’re doing just very well.

Before I go deeper in that, I need reassurance that I am on the right track, as it feels as though not only everything is going to empty out, but also everyone.
That's scary. I need reassurance that this is okay. That you also see this. That I'm not the only one seeing that maybe no one is here in a way...

Yes, it can be scary indeed.
When we carefully investigate into our primal elements of our sense of identity we might discover
that we are unable to verify any common-sense assumptions.
This dawning awareness, especially if it is more than a mental recognition, is deeply disorienting for most of us.
Sometimes it is really terrifying.
However, does our survival depend upon the believe that we own our body?
That we are located inside of it?
And that we are the free agent of our actions?

The problem arises when we believe our thoughts and identify with our thinking.
And when we confuse our thought content with reality.

This is what we are going to explore in our dialogue here.



Split daily activities simply into the sense experience:
colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

The meaning of this exercise is to have a good grasp on actual experience (AE).
It is to know how to look at AE and notice how thoughts overlay AE with stories.

It can be ‘practiced’ best during daily routines.
For example washing hands:

Feeling of water; warm or cold – sensation
Tactile impressions of hands touching -sensation
Scent of soap - smell
Vision of tiles or the tap – image/colour
Hearing of flowing water - sound
Thought about hands -thought


Please break your descriptions down into this way.
Use one incident or more and break them down into the separate sense impressions.
Please report.

Warmly

nina

[spin48]

Eating a cookie :
images of the cookie - seeing
odour of the cookie - smelling
eating the cookie - touching/feelings in my mouth + taste
thoughts of 'this is a cookie' 'no, there's no cookie' 'what's a cookie' etc...
no actual 'cookie'
I find that the most tricky thing to disentangle is the image of the cookie and the sense that there's a distinct object 'there'
As I cooked the cookie from the dough, it was obvious it wasn't seperate from it's prior form as dough and therefore, couldn't be an independant cookie...but when my mind saw the image of the cookie, it really was convincing that that cookie is a seperate object!

Eating avocado salad :
vision of colours and texture - seeing
odour of sesame oil - smelling
touch of the food in my mouth - touching
taste of avocado - tasting
thoughts : 'this is guacamole'

notes : the visual is the most entangled sense with the sense of there being things, and the patterns of sense-experience are so coherent with the belief that there are independent objects, I see an image, and then I experience smell and taste in a familiar way, which makes me convinced there's an independent object causing these foreseeable experiences.
**Even though sense-experience happens in a familiar and foreseeable way most of the time, that doesn't prove that there's objects underneath the sense-experience. **

JF

[suma]

Dear Jean-Francois,

I find that the most tricky thing to disentangle is the image of the cookie and the sense that there's a distinct object 'there'
As I cooked the cookie from the dough, it was obvious it wasn't seperate from it's prior form as dough and therefore, couldn't be an independant cookie...but when my mind saw the image of the cookie, it really was convincing that that cookie is a seperate object!

Well, just break the sense impressions further down:

The vision of dough – image/colour

Vision of cookie – image/clour.

”couldn't be an independent cookie” is a thought.
Without the connection due to thought the dough has no connection to the cookie.

vision of colours and texture - seeing
odour of sesame oil - smelling
touch of the food in my mouth - touching
taste of avocado - tasting
thoughts : 'this is guacamole'

Yes, very good.

notes : the visual is the most entangled sense with the sense of there being things, and the patterns of sense-experience are so coherent with the belief that there are independent objects,
I see an image, and then I experience smell and taste in a familiar way, which makes me convinced there's an independent object causing these foreseeable experiences.
**Even though sense-experience happens in a familiar and foreseeable way most of the time, that doesn't prove that there's objects underneath the sense-experience. **

The exercise is not aiming to prove whether objects exist or not.
It is just a means to establish a looking without a thought story involved.
A looking without any comments or knowing involved.
Just looking – looking refers here to all senses and not only the vision.

Please do this little exercise to get in touch with the difference:


Just take your hand in front of you and look at it.
Look at it for about at least a minute or so.
Notice the fact of its existence in your direct experience.
Look at it until you really become conscious:
‘Yes, this hand exists, here it is’

Now put your hand behind your back.
Look at your hand as if it would still be in front of you.
You don’t actually see it but imagine and think about your hand.
So that right there is concept and imagination.

Take out your hand again: There it is.
This is actual.
Now put it away again and just look at it from memory.
The hand you see now is just an imagination.

Make sure to do this a couple of times.
Make the distinction of both perceptions very clear.

Like this you may prove any ‘valid fact’.
Let’s call it a fact-check.

Is it an imagination or is it an actual fact of direct experience?

What is this hand?

Is it your hand?

Warmly

nina

[spin48]

Is it an imagination or is it an actual fact of direct experience?

Imaginating the hand actually felt more 'real' in the beginning than simply direct experience of seeing.

What is this hand?

there's no hand. either (when imagining) there's sensation created by thought-memory of an image and a sense of having an arm and hand.
or (in DE) there's seeing of colour and texture (and thoughts that come and go)

Is it your hand?

not if I don't imagine a me in existence.
so no, it's not, there's no hand. and there's no me...but really I still sense there's a looker (me) seeing the DE of vision

note : there's a subtle sense : in DE, experience is very simple and light and doesn't 'mean' anything...in the sense that it's pure in a way, it just is.

JF