Almost there - intellectually and conceptually, missing the direct understanding

[toadisms]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no self in charge of reality. There is only life unfolding.

What are you looking for at LU?
Currently reading, contemplating, watching videos, listening to podcasts and meditating. No self makes sense, intellectually and conceptually - yet direct experience is missing. As meditation, thinking and reading happens there is an experience of occasional tingling and sensations of connection with no self, however they are transitory. Five months ago I had a no self experience which lasted several minutes on my bicycle where there was a feeling removed from my body and reality was happening all around without any sense of an 'I' and a deep feeling of completeness.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
That it must come from me and that a guide may help enable that to happen. It all makes sense intellectually - someone to help me experience directly and get perspective. Perhaps the language is getting in the way.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Meditation, personal development, self inquiry.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

[b0dhi]

Hi there

My name is Bodhi and I'm a guide here. Happy to help you with your inquiry.

Let me know when you are ready and we can begin. BTW, what is your preferred name?

Warm regards

[toadisms]

Dear Bodhi,

Thank you so much for getting in touch and offering your guidance, it's hugely appreciated.

My name is Piers.

Yes, I am ready - in all senses.

[b0dhi]

Hey Piers

Good to meet you :)

So tell me about your sense of self - how do you experience it? What reality does it have?

Warmest regards

[toadisms]

I more aware of the workings of my ego self than ever before. This is from self inquiry, reading and meditating as well as wanting to better understand my psychology. This has made me much more aware of the present moment. at times when for instance I take a walk my experience feels illusory or removed from my conscious state before, often I practice labelling techniques when I'm riding my bike or walking. One of the habits from my mind which I have been working on is muttering and talking to myself when I'm on my own. Clearly this is just thoughts being surfaced, it's something I have always done since childhood.

I am comfortable theorising about no-self, makes total sense to me on an intellectual and conceptual level. Part of this has to be acceptance of what is, of being - there is nowhere to go. But also there is nothing to do, but surrender. I make more progress with my mediation and feel wide spatial awareness when I surrender, but on a more practical level I run my own business and if I was to meditate all day I would go bankrupt and not be able to support my kids. I am reading that we all actually have no free will, does this mean that life is pre-defined for us and so when we find ourselves doing something it is because we are responding to the will of the source/universe?

I would say I have glimpses of beginning to see a oneness that is everything through direct experience but it is faint and elusive in feeling. I have tried many of the exercise on threads on this forum, they have been useful, but I know that I need to experience all as one.

[toadisms]

Not sure if I answered your question!

Apologies for my ramblings.

Warmest
Piers

[b0dhi]

Hey Piers

Not sure if I answered your question!

Apologies for my ramblings.

Yes, you answered my question :) Thanks!

I am comfortable theorising about no-self, makes total sense to me on an intellectual and conceptual level. Part of this has to be acceptance of what is, of being - there is nowhere to go. But also there is nothing to do, but surrender.

The theories of no-self are very intellectually attractive - thought magnets :) In effect they can even create a separate self calling itself "no-self". Of course, we want your experience to go deeper than intellectual constructs into direct seeing into the absence of a separate self.

on a more practical level I run my own business and if I was to meditate all day I would go bankrupt and not be able to support my kids.

This made me smile, being a business person myself :) What has changed for me since the realisation of no-self from a business perspective, nothing much actually. Before I used to think I was in charge, now I know that there is no me to be in charge. Hence things happen and flow more by themselves without my false sense of self expending boundless energy on fruitless control.

What I'm saying is that you don't need to worry here. What has been looking after your kids and business will never go away. You will just see that it was not the "you" that "you" think "you" are :)

I am reading that we all actually have no free will, does this mean that life is pre-defined for us and so when we find ourselves doing something it is because we are responding to the will of the source/universe?

This would be outside my scope as a guide. However my suggestion to you is to look at reality fully and get the answer yourself.

I would say I have glimpses of beginning to see a oneness that is everything through direct experience but it is faint and elusive in feeling. I have tried many of the exercise on threads on this forum, they have been useful, but I know that I need to experience all as one.

Its really nice to hear that you have these glimpses. Let's see if we can deepen them, ok?

I'd like to start you off with a meditation in which you are watching yourself meditate. Take, say 5 to 10 minutes. During this meditation try and locate the Piers that is meditating. Is there a meditator there? Is there someone controlling the meditation? What is "appearing" in the space of meditation besides thoughts and information from the senses (hearing, smelling, feeling...etc)?

My warmest regards

[toadisms]

The theories of no-self are very intellectually attractive - thought magnets :) In effect they can even create a separate self calling itself "no-self". Of course, we want your experience to go deeper than intellectual constructs into direct seeing into the absence of a separate self.

Thank you. That's heartening and so appreciated.

What I'm saying is that you don't need to worry here. What has been looking after your kids and business will never go away. You will just see that it was not the "you" that "you" think "you" are :)

It certainly feels good to begin to surrender and let go. Thought comes in (...as usual) and the narrator of my story pipes in and says '...and what about starving impoverished peoples of sub-Saharan Africa? Should they not worry about their children either?' The mind at work! But my reality I have confidence in, it is the only field of experience. If I have not been to New Zealand does New Zealand actually exist? So only direct experience is real. When we read media and current affairs they are again effectively stories, I've never met these characters or been to these places - if I decided not to read the news then I just wouldn't know and they wouldn't exist at all 'poof' gone!

I'd like to start you off with a meditation in which you are watching yourself meditate. Take, say 5 to 10 minutes. During this meditation try and locate the Piers that is meditating. Is there a meditator there? Is there someone controlling the meditation? What is "appearing" in the space of meditation besides thoughts and information from the senses (hearing, smelling, feeling...etc)?

Thank you for this exercise. Meditation happened for 15 minutes last night employing a surrendering practice/technique. after allowing the mediation to run it's course naturally, after around 6 minutes observation was initiated, at least I tried to but found I couldn't meditate and be in the moment and observe at the same time. This was clearly obvious from the get go. The state of mediation, of being in the present moment negates an observer, it isn't possible. I can go into my imagination and come up with a scenario or story in my head, but in terms of direct experience a meditator couldn't be found - only meditating/being/breathing/awareness. I actually wanted to stop trying because it obstructed the flow of my meditation!

With greatest thanks.

[b0dhi]

Hey Piers :)

in terms of direct experience a meditator couldn't be found - only meditating/being/breathing/awareness. I actually wanted to stop trying because it obstructed the flow of my meditation!

That's a good start :)

When there is "only meditating/being/breathing/awareness" - is there something separate doing it? You say there is no meditat-or. Is there a being-er? A breath-er? An aware-...erm...aware-er? :)

If there is nothing separate, that is no difference between subject and object - then can there be a separate self experiencing an experience? Or is it that there is only one thing? Is there only, in your words, "Oneness"?

[toadisms]

Hi Bodhi hope you had a restful weekend and thank you for getting back to me.

When there is "only meditating/being/breathing/awareness" - is there something separate doing it? You say there is no meditat-or. Is there a being-er? A breath-er? An aware-...erm...aware-er? :)

Simple answer - absolutely not. There is no separate something.

If there is nothing separate, that is no difference between subject and object - then can there be a separate self experiencing an experience? Or is it that there is only one thing? Is there only, in your words, "Oneness"?

Yes, when in mediation and being in the moment there is a palpable feeling of oneness. Interestingly, I've observed later in the day, in a social or work context for example, there is not such a noticable 'oneness' - perhaps the 'doing' and 'language/communication' activities create the illusion of a separateness. Particularly as the mind/egoself attends to practical tasks. This is something I'm finding with this work, I achieve glimpses of connectivity with one, only to revert back into dualistic thinking/behaviour. I suppose this is to be expected and is all pat of the process. Anyway, I accept it.

[b0dhi]

Hi Piers

Thanks for the good wishes - the weekend was great :) I hope you had a good one too.

perhaps the 'doing' and 'language/communication' activities create the illusion of a separateness.

Wonderful insight. When you become aware that you are "Selfing", and you check to find a separate self, do you find one? Or is it that there is just the "sense of a self" - the illusion as you call it?

I achieve glimpses of connectivity with one, only to revert back into dualistic thinking/behaviour.

If there is really only "one", then what could be the other that would be connecting to the "one"? If there was an "other" then there would be "two" and not "one". How does this sit with you?

By isolating a sensation, let's say touch, can a separate self be found?

So if you seat yourself on a chair, close your eyes and relax. Become intently aware of the location of the point of contact between body and chair. Sense the sensation that is occurring there.

Can you sense a separate body and chair, or can you sense only a sensation? Are there two things present or only one?

Warmest regards

[toadisms]

Hi Bodhi, thank you for such useful pointers.

Wonderful insight. When you become aware that you are "Selfing", and you check to find a separate self, do you find one? Or is it that there is just the "sense of a self" - the illusion as you call it?

Sense of self seems to surface when I'm on my own talking to myself (mutterings of the mind - 'must remember that' o r maybe 'right what am i doing next' - kind of thing), or interacting with friends, family or at work where my character comes to the fore as expected. It dissipates when I am focusing on being in the moment, usually moments on my own, doing undemanding tasks and of course meditating.

If there is really only "one", then what could be the other that would be connecting to the "one"? If there was an "other" then there would be "two" and not "one". How does this sit with you?

Yes thank you for pointing this out so clearly, there is only oneness which is connected permanently. the mind/language/culture creates an illusion of disconnect with it. It sits very comfortably with me and my sense of self seems to create an unnecessary layer.

Can you sense a separate body and chair, or can you sense only a sensation? Are there two things present or only one?

Thanks for this exercise. I found it hugely insightful. During the first 10 minutes I could discern the pressure of my body on the chair, but as I went deeper and focused on the sensation and surrendered to it, it began to merge into an overall wider much more spatially open sensation, like a field of feeling/awareness. Once the session was over of course the chair and body felt more separate, but now I am aware that this is my mind and conditioning influencing experience. Now however, when i am sitting I am much more conscious of a unified singular sensation.

Hope that makes sense! ...perhaps with focus on the moment and with a conscious release all sensations begin to merge. that is so interesting.

[b0dhi]

Hi there Piers

Your progress is beautiful - good going :)

Once the session was over of course the chair and body felt more separate, but now I am aware that this is my mind and conditioning influencing experience.

Excellent. I would like you to spend some further time with this so that the clarity increases even more.

Sitting in some quiet space, relax and take a few deep breaths. Relax some more, allow your body to become slow, heavy and calm. Become restful in mind and body. Close your eyes and keep them closed.

Then please put your attention in the following spaces:
1. Your left foot. Allow it to rest there. Notice what is present.
2. Your right elbow. Allow it to rest there. Notice again what is present.
3. Both your ear lobes. Allow your attention to rest there. Notice what is present.
4. Your forehead. Allow your attention to rest there. Notice what is present.
5. Your chest. Allow your attention to rest there. Notice again what is present.
6. Your waist. Allow your attention to rest there. Notice what is present.

Please relay to me what you found in these locations.

[toadisms]

So sorry for late reply Bodhi business obligations have taken over this last week, but all is well and it's such a glorious day happening out there.

Sitting in some quiet space, relax and take a few deep breaths. Relax some more, allow your body to become slow, heavy and calm. Become restful in mind and body. Close your eyes and keep them closed.

Thank you greatly for this exercise, it was highly revealing. The experience was as follows:

Left foot - difficult to separate the feeling as being distinct from right foot as they merged into one sensation with the floor and come to think of it both lower legs, which in turn felt merged with arms and hands on lap.

Right elbow - this felt slightly easier to pin point in terms of sensation than left foot, but only because mind was working hard to identify and project a specific localised sensation in that area - like it almost mapped /rendered sensations onto that area because it was focused on doing so.

Earlobes - impossible to discern sensation in earlobes, head was merging with body and in turn with the floor and the seat, so earlobes were indistinguishable from the filed of sensation.

Forehead - as per the earlobes the forehead was indistinguishable

Chest - the chest was merging with abdomen and arms on lap, head was coming into this sensation also

Waist - indiscernible from sensation of the whole, merging with body, legs and arms.hands

Fascinating discoveries, sensation unifies to a whole, there is flow of sensation, mind/thought attempts to pinpoint and localise and create/project a separated sensation which is clearly not there. To conclude - thought creates an illusory sense of separation, thought manifests as language which by it's inherent nature facilitates 'selfing'. Of course much of everyday life is underpinned by language ...and thoughts for that matter. I can understand clearly why a separate sense of self feels so real. So thoughts are just happening, they come they go, like breaths or sounds, part of life unfolding. But what if I plan to take a trip to Paris, I have a thought which plays out into an action to buy a ticket which manifests in going to Paris. The original thought happened, it's outcome was a connected direct experience - but if there is no 'I' no 'me' then I didn't think it, thinking just happened. So does that mean that reality wanted to experience Paris directly so the thought was manifested?

Hm deep implications and contemplation going on here.

Very best,
Piers

[b0dhi]

Thanks for applying yourself so diligently Piers :)

Hm deep implications and contemplation going on here.

Let's keep deepening this, shall we?

Lie down somewhere quiet, closing the eyes and relaxing into the sense of feeling once more. Make yourself comfortable and start to feel the sensations of your body again.

Can you tell, from the sensations, the gender of the body? The dimensions and weight of the body?
Can you find the location in space and time of the body? Can you tell what is inside the body and outside?

Many thanks and looking forward to your response.