glowkeeper unleashed

[glowkeeper]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that self is a delusion and that we are all universally conscious

What are you looking for at LU?
I am hoping liberation unleashed will be able to provide some guidance on 'self' and how I might overcome that delusion and thus ditch the pronoun 'I' (except in the grammatical sense, where ditching 'I' must be problematic).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have no expectations; I am open to any helpful guidance. However, having said that, it would be fantastic if a guide could provide some insight on the Buddhist perspective on 'self' since I have been seeking that for many years but, as a lay practitioner, the Buddhist order to which I (loosely) prescribe seems to bury any profound teachings.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have some experience of Buddhist practice through the Triratna community

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?: 10

[Flicki]

Hello there!

Nice to meet you and welcome to LU! My name is Christina and I'd be happy to guide you. Shall I call you glowkeeper or do you prefer another name?

Before we start, please have a good browse around the forums though and see how everything works (including the quoting function, which can help to keep a better overview in a conversation thread...). I would also recommend looking at the FAQ and maybe some of the resources, so you know what LU is all about.

If you accept me as a guide, what we would do here is basically to have a conversation, the aim of which would be for you to understand the true nature of 'self'. In order to help you to get there, I would ask you questions or give you little hints or exercises to explore. This process is not about theories or concepts, but about experience.

Once you feel ready to start, please let me know in this thread and we will start this journey! :-)

All the best,
Christina

[glowkeeper]

Nice to meet you and welcome to LU! My name is Christina and I'd be happy to guide you.

Hello, Christina - my name's Steven. I'd be pleased to call you my guide...

Once you feel ready to start, please let me know in this thread and we will start this journey! :-)

I would love to get started.....

Steven x

[glowkeeper]

In the Gateless Gatecrashers, it says this:

The truth is simple. There is no self. There never was...To see the truth of it, you need to look.

Is meditation the means by which I look?

Steven x

[Flicki]

Hello Steven!

How nice to read back from you! You asked

Is meditation the means by which I look?

Well, if you meditate, it is okay if you go on with that. We might even explore a little in that area from time to time. I would like to ask you to quit reading stuff about the topic for now, however, because what I'm really interested in is your direct experience of things as opposed to thoughts, concepts and philosophies. This process can only work if you tell me about your experience as honestly as possible.

I would also suggest that we write once a day to get a bit of continuity. If there are days when you can't make it, please send a short message to let me know. I will do the same.

To get this going, here is my first question: You wrote

I would love to get started.....

Can you tell me a bit more about what you mean by 'I' here? If you look for it, what is there? Can you describe that?

So far,
Christina

[Flicki]

PS: Sorry I forgot to ask you if you have read the disclaimer...https://liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/ Could you please confirm that you have? Thanks! :-)

[glowkeeper]

I have read the disclaimer - I am not emotionally fragile nor do I regulate my mood with drugs. I am, however, on a path of spiritual discovery, which has led me to Buddhism. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find good Buddhist teaching, even though I have been loosely affiliated with the Triratna community for a good few years. Indeed, I would love to hear some Buddhist teachings on the idea of 'self'.

Can you tell me a bit more about what you mean by 'I' here?

+ I am a father
+ I am a PhD student
+ I am a computer programmer
+ I lean way left
+ I occasionally write short stories
+ I am not that great at guitar, but I'm practising and improving
+ I am okay at front crawl
+ I want to do a handstand, from straddle, before I'm 50.

I am many more things, too.

If you look for it, what is there? Can you describe that?

There is a man who would like to play the guitar on stage, and not care what anyone thinks. There is a man who has two beautiful daughters who depend on a steadfast daddy...

[Flicki]

Hi Steven!

Thanks for your reply.

I have read the disclaimer - I am not emotionally fragile nor do I regulate my mood with drugs. I am, however, on a path of spiritual discovery, which has led me to Buddhism. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find good Buddhist teaching, even though I have been loosely affiliated with the Triratna community for a good few years. Indeed, I would love to hear some Buddhist teachings on the idea of 'self'.

Thanks for acknowledging the disclaimer. You already said that you are looking for a Buddhist teaching in your introduction. The thing is... I cannot be your teacher. What I can do, however, is to guide you and help you directly experience what 'self' is. As I already said, this is not about ideas and thoughts, not about teachings and concepts. For now I'd like you to drop any theories though and just look very closely at what is there in the present. Could you imagine doing that?

If yes, you might wish to read this article about 'direct experience' to understand a bit better what I mean when using that term. (https://liberationunleashed.com/resourc ... xperience/)

+ I am a father
+ I am a PhD student
+ I am a computer programmer
+ I lean way left
+ I occasionally write short stories
+ I am not that great at guitar, but I'm practising and improving
+ I am okay at front crawl
+ I want to do a handstand, from straddle, before I'm 50.

I am many more things, too.

Okay. But what is this 'I' you are talking about? What are its properties? Can you feel it in the body? If yes, where exactly can you feel it? Does it have a shape or color, a smell, a sound...? If yes, what does it look/smell/sound like? What IS this 'I'? Does the 'PhD student I' feel different from the 'father I' or the 'guitarist I'? Does one of them feel more real than the other?

There is a man who has two beautiful daughters who depend on a steadfast daddy...

That sounds a little as if you suspected that something might happen to this 'steadfastness'. What ARE your expectations of this process, now that you have a little more of an idea of what we do here? What does it feel like to imagine letting go of the self? Can you describe it? Is there, say, a tension or a tingling or pain or bubbly energy or...?

Would be great to read back from you!

So far,
Christina

[glowkeeper]

Thanks for acknowledging the disclaimer. You already said that you are looking for a Buddhist teaching in your introduction. The thing is... I cannot be your teacher.

I'm aware this is not a Buddhist site and that you are not a Buddhist teacher. That's okay. However, please be aware that I am scholarly. Therefore, I am interested in Buddhist principles around the idea of self as I'm quite sure they have something important to say about the matter...

For now I'd like you to drop any theories though and just look very closely at what is there in the present. Could you imagine doing that?

Of course.

If yes, you might wish to read this article about 'direct experience' to understand a bit better what I mean when using that term. (https://liberationunleashed.com/resourc ... xperience/)

Thanks! Interesting, if ever-so-slightly ethereal.

I am many more things, too.

Okay. But what is this 'I' you are talking about? What are its properties? Can you feel it in the body? If yes, where exactly can you feel it? Does it have a shape or color, a smell, a sound...? If yes, what does it look/smell/sound like? What IS this 'I'? Does the 'PhD student I' feel different from the 'father I' or the 'guitarist I'? Does one of them feel more real than the other?

I am 5ft10, blessed with a degree of intelligence and good health. I am reasonably athletic, too. I've just had a bath, so hopefully, I even smell okay ;)

In all seriousness, all of those different facets I mentioned are parts whose sum forms the whole 'I'.

There is a man who has two beautiful daughters who depend on a steadfast daddy...

That sounds a little as if you suspected that something might happen to this 'steadfastness'. What ARE your expectations of this process, now that you have a little more of an idea of what we do here? What does it feel like to imagine letting go of the self? Can you describe it? Is there, say, a tension or a tingling or pain or bubbly energy or...?

I have no expectations.

I'm not certain I want to let go of 'self', just yet (even if I have an idea of its benefit). So there's definitely some tension, there, which is making me very slightly anxious and I feel that in the pit of my stomach.

Steven x

[Flicki]

Hi Steven!

Thank you for your reply!

I'm aware this is not a Buddhist site and that you are not a Buddhist teacher.

I did not say that. I said 'I cannot be your teacher'. I can't because this is not what we're doing here! The reason is that this process works best without any concepts and Buddhism, like any other school, is a concept as long as you don't open up and let it become your own experience. Once it's your experience it's not Buddhism anymore though. :-) The dharma is just another finger pointing to the moon, but you have to look for yourself to experience what the moon is and make sure you don't just look at the finger! :-)

That's okay. However, please be aware that I am scholarly. Therefore, I am interested in Buddhist principles around the idea of self as I'm quite sure they have something important to say about the matter...

Course, they do. But this idea won't help you see for yourself! And you can always compare notes with the Buddha later, right now... put any ideas aside or this here will last AGES! :-) If nothing else helps, imagine for a second how much more fun it is to read a text that explains your own experience compared to a text that is super theoretical and you can hardly follow...

For now I'd like you to drop any theories though and just look very closely at what is there in the present. Could you imagine doing that?

Of course.

Great!

If yes, you might wish to read this article about 'direct experience' to understand a bit better what I mean when using that term. (https://liberationunleashed.com/resourc ... xperience/)

Thanks! Interesting, if ever-so-slightly ethereal.

It's okay to just read the first paragraph. :-) But that's a useful definition. Please look and explore in that area!

Okay. But what is this 'I' you are talking about? What are its properties? Can you feel it in the body? If yes, where exactly can you feel it? Does it have a shape or color, a smell, a sound...? If yes, what does it look/smell/sound like? What IS this 'I'? Does the 'PhD student I' feel different from the 'father I' or the 'guitarist I'? Does one of them feel more real than the other?

I am 5ft10, blessed with a degree of intelligence and good health. I am reasonably athletic, too. I've just had a bath, so hopefully, I even smell okay ;)
In all seriousness, all of those different facets I mentioned are parts whose sum forms the whole 'I'.

Steven, you did not answer my questions!

I'm not certain I want to let go of 'self', just yet (even if I have an idea of its benefit). So there's definitely some tension, there, which is making me very slightly anxious and I feel that in the pit of my stomach.

Thanks for your honesty here. Any idea what's holding you back?

So far,
Christina

[glowkeeper]

Please forgive my slow response - I've had a busy weekend.

I'm aware this is not a Buddhist site and that you are not a Buddhist teacher.

I did not say that. I said 'I cannot be your teacher'.

Forgive my assumption.

I can't because this is not what we're doing here! The reason is that this process works best without any concepts and Buddhism, like any other school, is a concept as long as you don't open up and let it become your own experience. Once it's your experience it's not Buddhism anymore though. :-)

But aren't you assuming that Buddhism does not match my experience? In fact, I like Buddhism because I can relate to many of the Pali Canon's suttas, since they appear to match my reality.

The dharma is just another finger pointing to the moon, but you have to look for yourself to experience what the moon is and make sure you don't just look at the finger! :-)

Nice analogy :)

I am interested in Buddhist principles around the idea of self as I'm quite sure they have something important to say about the matter./i]

Course, they do. But this idea won't help you see for yourself!

Surely, insight is EXACTLY what Buddhism gives!

And you can always compare notes with the Buddha later

Phew ;)

All of those different facets I mentioned are parts whose sum forms the whole 'I'.
Steven, you did not answer my questions!

I thought 'parts that form the whole', was my answer! Forgive me - perhaps I didn't understand the question?

I'm not certain I want to let go of 'self', just yet (even if I have an idea of its benefit).

Thanks for your honesty here. Any idea what's holding you back?

I think the clue was in my answer to the disclaimer - I haven't come here because I have a whole raft of problems. In fact, quite the opposite - I rather like who I am and the direction in which I'm heading - why should I let go of that?

Steven x

[Flicki]

Hi Steven!

Just a short note to let you know life had other plans for me today and I will write tomorrow.

So far,
Christina

[Flicki]

Hello Steven!

Thanks for your message.

But aren't you assuming that Buddhism does not match my experience? In fact, I like Buddhism because I can relate to many of the Pali Canon's suttas, since they appear to match my reality.

To be honest, I don't think this is going to get us closer to the question you're here... inquiry into the nature of self. Let's concentrate on that for now.

Surely, insight is EXACTLY what Buddhism gives!

No. Practice leads to insight. But again: This is not really our topic! :-)

All of those different facets I mentioned are parts whose sum forms the whole 'I'.
Steven, you did not answer my questions!

I thought 'parts that form the whole', was my answer! Forgive me - perhaps I didn't understand the question?

I re-read your answer and it seems I have misunderstood you at first. Sorry for that! Okay then, you say all the 'parts that form the whole' makes up an 'I'. If I say now there is no such thing as a 'self' or an 'I', there never has been, there never will be... There is only experience, but no experiencer. There is just what's going on, here and now. ...What's your reaction to that?

I think the clue was in my answer to the disclaimer - I haven't come here because I have a whole raft of problems. In fact, quite the opposite - I rather like who I am and the direction in which I'm heading - why should I let go of that?

Why should you hold on that? Has this ever worked for you? Do you have the feeling you really are in control? Assuming there is no 'I'... how can there be such a thing as control?

So far,
Christina

[glowkeeper]

Dear Christina,

Please bare with me! I've just swapped Internet provider and there's been a bit of an error, it seems - I have no Internet at home! As soon as I'm back online at home, I'll send a lengthy response....

Steve

[Flicki]

Hi Steven!

Please bare with me!

I'll agree to bear with you! :-)

Thanks for letting me know.

So far,
Christina