Too clever? Am I fooling myself again?

[MichielvK]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:
Someone talked about this website in satsang. Upon that; I feel like writing about this, might help me better to formulate my questions . Three years ago I suddenly experienced panick-attacks. Someone pointed me to an haptonomist. This man helped me to get in contact with feelings I supressed for many years. Feelings of insecuraty and fear. I had unconsiously created u a dominant, completely rational, calculated and clever personality (ego), to avoid these feelings. The sudden collapse of this identity (or the untenable growth of the energy behind those supressed feelings) resulted in these panick occured. In this proces one thing stuck to me: if I am not this person I thought I was, who am I? And so the seeking started. From Tolle to Nisergadatta to Carse, Parsons etc. The last two years I have read all of it.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:
From my first introdcution to advaita, I knew that I was onto something real, something I know deep down inside. Something I recognise. Trying to get all of this with understanding, made me crazy (throwing Nisergadatta 'I Am That' through the room :)). The last few months there seems a shift happening from not wanting tot understand anymore. The continuous question 'who am I' ceased. I realised my true nature; or better: the I-illusion is seen to be an illusion. I am looking for the truth. I Always was. Nevertheless; I still feel doubt: I fooled myself for 30 years to think i am somebody I'm not. So maybe now'I'm folling myself to be realised?

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:
See above; 3 years of daily (fanatic!) reading/ inquiry.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?: 10

[Alexw]

Hi,

Welcome to LU! My name is Alex and I am happy to discuss this with you.

The last few months there seems a shift happening from not wanting tot understand anymore. The continuous question 'who am I' ceased. I realised my true nature; or better: the I-illusion is seen to be an illusion.

Ok, great! When you were working with the question "Who am I"... What did you do? Where and how did you look for an answer? What did you find?
You said the question ceased because you have seen through the I-illusion. Could you please tell me a few more details. What exactly is this I-illusion? And once this illusion has been seen for what it is, what remains? What is this true nature that was realised?

I still feel doubt: I fooled myself for 30 years to think i am somebody I'm not. So maybe now'I'm folling myself to be realised?

That is perfectly normal. Doubt normally comes up sooner or later after seeing happened, simply because many things are still as they used to be - you are still there, thoughts are still there, desire and aversion and even fear might still be here... How does that gel with realisation/liberation..? Shouldn't liberation be liberation from fear, aversion and suffering?
Please also let me know me how things have changed since this realisation happened compared to how things were before.

So maybe now'I'm folling myself to be realised?

Well... lets have a closer look together...

Regards,
Alex
PS: Please learn to use the quote function. Instructions can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

[MichielvK]

Hi Alex! Thanks for your respond and your willingness to help me! Really appreciate it!

Ok, great! When you were working with the question "Who am I"... What did you do?

The first months I was completly focused on my thoughts; especially the fact that I wanted to know wheter or not my thoughts were produced with the same 'sound' as my voice :) Looking back I think its funny, but back then I was convinced that thoughts were created by 'me'. Then I found out that they are just like soundbites and come out of nothing and vanish into nothing. I started to focus on the silence underneath the thoughts.It was wonderful, but soon i found out that this silence was a thing I wanted to last, and of course it did not.

Where and how did you look for an answer? What did you find?

Then one day, I was running (I run twice a week about 15 km through nature). And all of a sudden I realised, that I (the runner) was not running through a world, but the world appeared in me! It struck me; it wasnt really a feeling, but more like something I had forgotten and I now discovered again. It felt like a slight shift in perspective, with a huge impact. After some minutes (?) the perspective changed again. Of course I tried to get this 'back' in the months after that (especially while running). It did not really happen. I got frustrated, but I was also determined to go on. I knew this was the truth. In the period after this, I found out, that searching for that 'running-shift' was in vain. Again it struck me: if I am not in the world, who is it that is frustrated? Who wants this shift anyway?

You said the question ceased because you have seen through the I-illusion. Could you please tell me a few more details. What exactly is this I-illusion? And once this illusion has been seen for what it is, what remains? What is this true nature that was realised?

What the I -illusion really ia, is a hard one to answer. It is this sense (dont know a better word) that there is an entity called 'Michiel' who wants to gain, wants to be comfortable, happy and most of all be seen and approved. But this entitiy cant be found; the body is just flesh, thoughts cant be unhappy and feelings are just sensations. Without this sense there is just a constant flowing of experiece appearing in and for no-one. Even the (false) sense of being this entity is part of this flow of experience.

So there I am; not knowing who I am, but constantly experiencing everything (full duality). And then this doubt creeps in: did I (the clever old ego) just found a new way to deal with life? Is this the end of the road?

[Alexw]

Hi Michiel,

Thank you for your explanations - some great realisations there!

I found out that they are just like soundbites and come out of nothing and vanish into nothing

Yes, well seen.

Then one day, I was running (I run twice a week about 15 km through nature). And all of a sudden I realised, that I (the runner) was not running through a world, but the world appeared in me!

There can be many different experiences, some more mystical or impressive than others, but it would be a mistake to take them as a measurement of how for you have come or even if you have reached your goal (of liberation, enlightenment etc...) Its not about special experiences but about a realisation that will lead to a true "shift of perspective". These special experiences can be supportive of that but they can also be a hindrance in case you are chasing after them.
For now I would ask you to put all expectations aside - they are all mind made - pre-fabricating a scenario describing what it will be like when you "get it" will thus only keep you from true realisation.

By the way: I also run nearly every day and I found that running is a great way to explore experience. There are so many physical and sensory perceptions happening that it is a real treasure trove for inquiry into this kind of topic :-)

What the I -illusion really ia, is a hard one to answer. It is this sense (dont know a better word) that there is an entity called 'Michiel' who wants to gain, wants to be comfortable, happy and most of all be seen and approved. But this entitiy cant be found; the body is just flesh, thoughts cant be unhappy and feelings are just sensations. Without this sense there is just a constant flowing of experiece appearing in and for no-one. Even the (false) sense of being this entity is part of this flow of experience.

This illusion of a separate self consists of more than one layer, there are gross and there are subtle ones. The gross layers are simply thoughts, the I-thought and all its appearances, then there are certain other aspects of selfing, mostly to be found in desires, aversions, fear and other emotions. Still a little bit subtler is this sense of self, the feeling that "I exist"... There are different inquiries for each level, but for now lets stick with the first one (even it seems that you have seen through this one...)

Please sit down and relax. Look at an object that is in front of you, maybe a lamp, a cup, a tree... Simply look at it. Now a thought might arise "I am looking at a cup!". Is this thought true? Which part of this sentence do you really find in this direct experience? Please don't answer from previous understanding but really do this exercise:
First look for this "I" that thought states is doing the looking. Really try to find it. Don't just think "Ah.. I haven't found it so far, I know its just a thought...". You cannot think yourself to realisation - true understanding comes from direct looking, not from thought. So please look with all your power and try to find this I, the looker, the doer of the looking. There should be one, no? You see the object, so where is the seer?

did I (the clever old ego) just found a new way to deal with life?

Can the "ego" do that? What is this "ego" made of? Can it find anything? Does it have any real powers?

Alex

[MichielvK]

Hi fellow-runner :)

I inquired as you suggested.

I am looking at a cup. Is this thought true? Which part of this sentence do you really find in this direct experience?

Seeing the cup is an experience. Being is an experience. The thought "I am looking at the cup" is an experience (in the form of a thought). But there is no experience of an "I" as a "looker". At first it seems to be that there is, but in investigating it, it can't be found as something other than a thought. Or as a sensation (a sensation 'here' where the body is, which seems not to be present 'there'' where the cup is). But on furhter investigation, I couldnt even locate the sensation anymore (which gave a rather 'flat'/ dimensionless effect on sensations!).

So please look with all your power and try to find this I, the looker, the doer of the looking. There should be one, no? You see the object, so where is the seer?

Its not here other than a thought or sensation (from which thought tells me that ist located somewhere in space).

Especially the falling away of locating sensations struck me :)

[Alexw]

there is no experience of an "I" as a "looker". At first it seems to be that there is, but in investigating it, it can't be found as something other than a thought.

Great observation! Well done!

Or as a sensation (a sensation 'here' where the body is, which seems not to be present 'there'' where the cup is). But on furhter investigation, I couldnt even locate the sensation anymore .... Its not here other than a thought or sensation...

Great observation regarding location, but lets come back to that later...
Can you please describe this sensation that seems to qualify as an I/self. What does it feel like? Where in the body can it be found? Is it always at the same location?
What tells you that this specific sensation is an experience of "I"?

Being is an experience.

Can you please describe this experience of "being"? Is there someone to be found that is doing the "being"? What is contained in being? Meaning: what do you see, hear, feel, taste, smell and think that qualifies as an experience of being?

[MichielvK]

Hi Alex,

We are having an Indian summer here in Netherlands, so I was out camping with my wife and 2 daughters (4 and 6 yo) the past few days. During that I took the time to investigate the I-feeling some more (plenty of opportunity while pitching a tent with your wife while 2 kids are nagging about almost everything lol)

Can you please describe this sensation that seems to qualify as an I/self. What does it feel like? Where in the body can it be found? Is it always at the same location?
What tells you that this specific sensation is an experience of "I"?

The sensation feels tense, dens but not solid. An energy that seems to accompany the body (in and outwards, inwards mostly felt in the chest, and outwards 'around the body but not stretching further than -say- 20 centimeters from the skin). Its moving a bit, like a changing shadow.

On investigation, I realise that these are just sensations, and that only thought/ habbit tells me that this is an experience of "I". Though and habbit seems to make a logical conclusion: the changing shadow is felt in and around a body which is seen everyday, and is not felt around a body of -say- a colleague; therefore these sensations belong to that which seems to be always here ('my body'). Again, I realised that I am not the body, and that what I call 'my body' is just a cluster of sensations and thoughts. But despite of this understanding, this false experience of "i" appears on occasion.

Can you please describe this experience of "being"? Is there someone to be found that is doing the "being"? What is contained in being? Meaning: what do you see, hear, feel, taste, smell and think that qualifies as an experience of being?

You are right; I can't describe 'being' as an experience. Experience appears in 'being'. No-one is doing this being, it is what I am. What I mean is that there is a certainty that I am. That certainty is not an experience i can describe as something (some - thing) but nevertheless it is known. Known as what? I dont know. hahaha

[Alexw]

Hi,

We (wife, two sons) also love camping. So many beautiful places to explore!

On investigation, I realise that these are just sensations, and that only thought/ habit tells me that this is an experience of "I".

Yes, well seen! Its always only a thought that labels something as such and such, a tree, a car, I, other...

Though and habbit seems to make a logical conclusion: the changing shadow is felt in and around a body which is seen everyday, and is not felt around a body of -say- a colleague; therefore these sensations belong to that which seems to be always here ('my body').

Yes, true, there is the "logical conclusion" that something that seems to always appear in the proximity of something else belongs to this thing... Like leaves seem to belong to a tree certain sensations seem to belong to an I/self...

But then again... what is a tree? When you look at this scenery in front of you, what do you see? A tree?
Can you please describe the direct experience of "tree" (or really any other object) in a way that is as close to direct experience as possible. What is beneath the label "tree"... and I don't mean leaves, bark, branches... you can get even closer to direct experience... what is the closest you can get?
And... when you are there... see if there is still an experience of "tree". Was there ever an experience of tree? Is there an experience of "I"?

I realised that I am not the body, and that what I call 'my body' is just a cluster of sensations and thoughts

Yes, the "body" is only a set of sensations that are then labelled by thought as hand, foot, tightness in my chest etc etc...

But despite of this understanding, this false experience of "i" appears on occasion.

Is there really a false experience of "I" appearing? Or are there only thoughts arising talking about an I?
When this experience happens again, try to be aware of it and then please describe it as detailed as possible. What does it consist of? What thoughts are present?

You are right; I can't describe 'being' as an experience. Experience appears in 'being'. No-one is doing this being, it is what I am. What I mean is that there is a certainty that I am. That certainty is not an experience i can describe as something (some - thing) but nevertheless it is known. Known as what? I dont know. hahaha

Are you really sure? I guess we know that there is This, "what is", something that we call experience... ok...
But are you sure about "I am"? In which way are "you"? Maybe only as "what is"... but not as "I am"..?

Alex

[MichielvK]

Hi Alex!

Thanks again for your patience and help!

Can you please describe the direct experience of "tree" (or really any other object) in a way that is as close to direct experience as possible. What is beneath the label "tree"... and I don't mean leaves, bark, branches... you can get even closer to direct experience... what is the closest you can get?
And... when you are there... see if there is still an experience of "tree". Was there ever an experience of tree? Is there an experience of "I"?

I experienced with this quite al lot the last few days. While I'm typing this, I am looking at a bottle. WHen I really try to describe the experience of 'bottle', I must say I can't. Of course I can describe form/ colour, texture, but those are not experiences, but thought. I know its made of glass, that it feeld hard and smooth and that it's round. But I don't experience a bottle. The bottle ande the table underneath it are the same for all that matter. And yes, during this exploration the 'experience of I' is the same as the bottle, the table and all the rest. Wicked.

Is there really a false experience of "I" appearing? Or are there only thoughts arising talking about an I?
When this experience happens again, try to be aware of it and then please describe it as detailed as possible. What does it consist of? What thoughts are present?

Ysterday I ran 20 km. Today I feel an constant pain in my heel. I'm afraid it's a tendinitis. So the moment the thought arised 'damn, if this is a tendinitis I might be injured and not running for several months' the false sense of I was there. A lot of thoughts (why now? autumn is my fav season for running), could I've prevented it? Etc. These thoughts (although seen as such) seem to disturbe this 'I'. Now when I'm typing this, I realise that I can't descirbe of find what it consit of. Thoughts arise, feelings of distubance arise, fear of missing out arise, but it's not possible to describe for whom they arise. At some point I think I found this I, this 'enitity' that seems to be located as a dense feeling in the chest and head, creating, aprroving and dissaporoving thoughts and trying to control all situations. I know these are descriptions of feelings, sensations and thoughts. Just like the bottle. No entity there.

But are you sure about "I am"? In which way are "you"? Maybe only as "what is"... but not as "I am"..?

When you put it like that, indeed there is only what is. I am the knowing of all this. That's not an experience.

[Alexw]

Hi,

I hope the pain in your heel

WHen I really try to describe the experience of 'bottle', I must say I can't. Of course I can describe form/ colour, texture, but those are not experiences, but thought. I know its made of glass, that it feeld hard and smooth and that it's round. But I don't experience a bottle. The bottle ande the table underneath it are the same for all that matter. And yes, during this exploration the 'experience of I' is the same as the bottle, the table and all the rest. Wicked.

Well seen - all descriptions are of things - but are there any things in experience at all?
"I" is also a thing - and some might believe it is the subject that perceives things/objects - but when really looking for it you wont find this "subject/object/thing"... wicked indeed :-)

At some point I think I found this I, this 'enitity' that seems to be located as a dense feeling in the chest and head, creating, aprroving and dissaporoving thoughts and trying to control all situations. I know these are descriptions of feelings, sensations and thoughts. Just like the bottle. No entity there.

To make this realisation of "No entity there" have deeper impact try the following:
Look again at these physical sensations when they arise - they are actually not a bad thing at all - I know they do feel uncomfortable and there is a certain urge to get away from them, but they can be a great tool to help you see through certain ideas and beliefs... At first they seem to support the idea of there being an entity that decides what to do next, that controls the situation, but is there really...
When these sensations arise again try to be aware of them as soon as possible and simply stay with them. In daily life these sensations come up very fast and then a reaction follows that we label as "I acted in anger" or something similar.
Looking for a statement that has a certain negative charge, that, when intoned leads to these uncomfortable physical sensations can thus be beneficial.
When looking at this process in these lab-like conditions you will find that when intoning the statement and putting yourself artificially in this stressful situation the same sensations will arise, but as soon as they arise you will be able to simply stay there. You stay with the sensations but you don't react. You might see thoughts arising about what you would/should be doing, but you don't do anything and you don't buy into these thoughts, you remain in the "gap" looking at the sensations and looking for the trigger (an entity, a subject) that makes you react. That turns the option of reacting into a fact - where is this trigger/entity that makes you react? When remaining in this gap... what do you find? ... look and let me know.

[Alexw]

This should read:
I hope the pain in your heel is better by now. I feel with you as I wouldn't be happy about this happening either.

[MichielvK]

Looking for a statement that has a certain negative charge, that, when intoned leads to these uncomfortable physical sensations can thus be beneficial.

Can you please explain waht you mean with this? My English is not sufficient to understand this, I guess... I follow you up till the point that a sudden sensation of false self appears, which is then (afterwards) labelled by thought. These labels vary from fear, anger, impatience, pride etc. What do u mean with 'intoning' ?

Sorry for asking!

(btw, my heel is much better after another night sleep; good hope it's nothing serious; I will be cautious though!

[Alexw]

OK.. so what did I mean with "intoning the statement"...

The first step is to find a statement, a sentence, that describes a situation where ego-based reactions happen. This statement can be anything from "I don't like how XYZ looks at me." to "I don't feel comfortable in situation XYZ"... When intoning such a statement - meaning you either spell it out or just think about it - there should be a set of uncomfortable physical sensations arising. It is beneficial if you look for a statement that has a real charge, a real importance, in your daily life. If you have trouble finding such a statement then try this: If a fairy would appear in front of you, right now, and grant you a wish - you can wish for one problem that should be taken away from you. Which problem would you like to get rid of from your life?
When you have found such a problem then you can formulate a statement like "I don't want to..." - for now, it should be phrased like this, in the negative... Does this clarify it better?
Now, please try to find such a statement that aims at a real life problem. When you have found one, then please sit down, relax and say it a few times, intone it... Think about the real life situation, intone the statement again, and feel the uncomfortable sensations arise - now just stay with them... Please report how that feels.

[MichielvK]

He Alex; ok, now it's clear what you mean. Thanks!

The past few days I tried really hard looking for a problem, imagining the fairy, but for some reason I find it hard to really find a problem. Hahah, not having a problem is suddenly a problem :)

The moment I try to grap a problem, it vanishes into something I cannot grap, a story...

The closest thing of a 'problem' i can find, is my work-situation. Since advaita came on my path, I find it (even more) difficult to be a manager, to pretend that business-descions are really imporant, to do appraisals etc. I'll try to focus on this and see what happens... Maybe you have a suggestion for in the meantime?

[Alexw]

Thats great that there are no real problems in your life :-)

If this is the case then maybe look at desires, fears or things that make you angry... there would have to be a few things in life that generate some physical sensations and eventually emotional reactions, no?

You can maybe also use your running practice for this inquiry... the process of running is normally considered a physical one, but it truly is also very much a mental "exercise". When you run try to observe how your thoughts wander and as soon as they turn to certain problems or complaints about certain issues in life or simply to the strain of running itself observe how you immediately give up a substantial amount of energy. You will feel physically weaker and running turns into an effort. When you see this happening then simply move your focus of attention back to the body, observe how it moves, see that there really is zero effort required to move this body, see how the movement of the body alone is beautiful and magical.
Also try look at how problems seem to appear out of thin air and how they only last and grow when mental attention is placed on them - when there is simply running then no problem exists at all, even physical strain is not strain anymore, it is just a specific physical sensation that also holds its own beauty... and in all of that... can any controlling entity, any I/self be found anywhere at all?