Requesting Ghata as guide

[JavaJeff]

Hello. This is my second time around. I am requesting a specific guide (Ghata).

Here are my answers to the initial questions:

2016-08-15 1445

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?

I am here to see through the purported illusion of a separate self. I am coming from a Theravadan Buddhist tradition, and am on the path to ‘enter the stream’ (sottapana). As part of that effort I am supposed to drop the first three fetters: clinging to rites/rituals, doubt in the Buddha’s teaching, and holding a view of self. I feel quite strongly I have dropped those first two, and only have this persistent feeling of self to wrestle with now.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?

I am looking for clarity. I expect to be able to finally ‘really get it’ - not just intellectually, but on a deeper more intuitive level. Although I do know that there really isn’t a me to get anything - so I’m probably setting myself up for disappointment. :-)

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?

A lot of psychedelic ‘research’ as a youth. Had some very intense (but fleeting) insights into reality. Clean and sober for 10 years now, and have worked through the steps of my specific 12 Step program.

I have established a formal meditation practice for the past couple of years, based on methods outlined in the early Pali suttas (occasionally breath meditation, but usually focused on metta, or loving-kindness). I usually meditate 30-45 minutes per day - more when I can afford it. But I have a wife and two kids and a job, so I just do what I can.

I had a failed attempt at seeing through the self here on LU about a year ago (http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/ ... t=JavaJeff). It was eye opening on an intellectual and philosophical level, but I clung very hard to the sense of self. Since then, I have done a lot of reading (Ramana Maharshi, Nisargatta) and YouTube watching (Rupert Spira, Jim Newman, Fred Davis, Greg Goode, Wayne Wirs, Lisa Cairns, Roy Dopson). I can see now that I was overly intellectual and somewhat combative in my discussions before, and I think that was what prevented me from grasping what was being shown to me.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?

I am 100% ready and 100% willing to do the work, with rigorous honesty.

[Ghata]

Hi Javajeff,

welcome back on the forum :-). Do you want to be called Javajeff or any other name?

Thank you for your introduction. Right, since with the first fetter all first three are fully broken at once and you already are no longer tied down by 2 and 3, we only need to take care of the first one now.

I ask you to put aside all books, videos and audios for the time of this inquiry. You will now find out for yourself whether it is in fact true what all these teachers are saying.

I have established a formal meditation practice for the past couple of years, based on methods outlined in the early Pali suttas (occasionally breath meditation, but usually focused on metta, or loving-kindness). I usually meditate 30-45 minutes per day - more when I can afford it. But I have a wife and two kids and a job, so I just do what I can.

Usually you can go on with your regular meditation practice during the guiding. In this case I like you to change to Anapanasati - breath awareness for the time of your inquiry into the self.

Metta-Meditation involves the thought of somebody sending love. This will be very confusing. After the gate, a different way of doing this meditation will be found.


How will the experience of seeing through the Illusion feel?
What will change and what will stay?
How will this experience change your life?

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

Hello, and good morning! Thank you for the reply. You can just call me Jeff.

Usually you can go on with your regular meditation practice during the guiding. In this case I like you to change to Anapanasati - breath awareness for the time of your inquiry into the self.

Metta-Meditation involves the thought of somebody sending love. This will be very confusing. After the gate, a different way of doing this meditation will be found.

OK, I will switch over to mindfulness of the breath for now.

How will the experience of seeing through the Illusion feel?

Not having experienced it myself, I cannot really say. I have some ideas and opinions about how it will feel, but those are just projections and expectations.

What will change and what will stay?

What I am hoping is that having seen through the illusory self, there will be a sense of letting go, of relief, of not having to take anything so seriously anymore. But I fully expect that the day-to-day ups and downs of life will persist.

How will this experience change your life?

I used to have this idea that ‘getting it’ would mean an end to all disappointment and pain, but I don’t believe that anymore. However, it might lead to an end of suffering, since I hope to no longer be personally invested in things anymore.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

thank you for answer. :-)

However, it might lead to an end of suffering, since I hope to no longer be personally invested in things anymore.

I have to break the news to you - this won't happen. You might remember the Buddha saying: "The lazy streamenterer remains in suffering."

How will the experience of seeing through the Illusion feel?

Not having experienced it myself, I cannot really say. I have some ideas and opinions about how it will feel, but those are just projections and expectations

This is exactly what I am interested in, your ideas and opionions, your projections and expectations :-).

Please write freely about them.

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

I have to break the news to you - this won't happen. You might remember the Buddha saying: "The lazy streamenterer remains in suffering."

I am a little confused. I recognize that pain and negativity and ‘bad stuff’ are all part of life, and that the individual unit (in my case, this Jeff person) is subject to disease, aging, tragedy and death. But the suffering comes when I cling to the sense of personal self, and make everything about me, right? If I can remain OK with what is, then even though these things occur, I will not suffer for it, right?

This is exactly what I am interested in, your ideas and opinions, your projections and expectations :-).

OK. I will elaborate.

I expect that clear seeing - whether gained through this site, or through the Buddha’s teachings, or in some other way - leads to a more equanimous approach to life. I have an idea that “dropping the self” will allow the “light of being” (which as I understand it, is just Is-ness) to shine through me more easily, not necessarily making my life better or easier, but helping me to accept what is at any given time.

Ultimately I would like to be rid of all expectation and projection, since what will be will be no matter what I think should be.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

thank you for your great honesty :-)

I am a little confused. I recognize that pain and negativity and ‘bad stuff’ are all part of life, and that the individual unit (in my case, this Jeff person) is subject to disease, aging, tragedy and death. But the suffering comes when I cling to the sense of personal self, and make everything about me, right? If I can remain OK with what is, then even though these things occur, I will not suffer for it, right?

Seeing through the Illusion of self is the first step. It doesn't mean that all concepts will be gone that are inferred on reality and create suffering. There is more to be seen through, and seeing through the self is the door opener for that.

I expect that clear seeing - whether gained through this site, or through the Buddha’s teachings, or in some other way - leads to a more equanimous approach to life. I have an idea that “dropping the self” will allow the “light of being” (which as I understand it, is just Is-ness) to shine through me more easily, not necessarily making my life better or easier, but helping me to accept what is at any given time.Ultimately I would like to be rid of all expectation and projection, since what will be will be no matter what I think should be.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts honestly :-). I suggest to stay open for whatever happens, as it is different for everybody.


What feelings, body sensations and thoughts come up when reading the following sentence:

There is no self and never was. There is nobody through whom "the light of being" could shine through, nobody who could accept or reject what is happen. There is nobody experiencing life or reacting to it and nobody who could remain okay with it.

Write what feels true.

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

Seeing through the Illusion of self is the first step. It doesn't mean that all concepts will be gone that are inferred on reality and create suffering. There is more to be seen through, and seeing through the self is the door opener for that.

Thank you. I am glad that I seem to be on a good path. What I like about you is that you are also coming from a Buddhist background. What I think I hear you saying here is that direct seeing (through the illusion of self) is just a beginning.

What feelings, body sensations and thoughts come up when reading the following sentence:

There is no self and never was. There is nobody through whom "the light of being" could shine through, nobody who could accept or reject what is happen. There is nobody experiencing life or reacting to it and nobody who could remain okay with it.

Write what feels true.

Sadness. Alone-ness. Not despair, but just - sadness, to the point there are actual tears in my eyes. I feel how I guess my parents or my wife or kids or friends would feel if they found out I was dead. Just a feeling of deep loss.

I just flashed on a powerful moment I had several years ago when solo climbing in the Rocky Mountains. The feeling here is the same - it’s just so damn big, and so impersonal. Not really afraid, just - the thought of how big and cold it all is causes tears and a deep sense of awe.

Body sensations of emptiness and heaviness. Some sobbing. Jesus Christ, I’m at work and I’m crying.

Sending love,
Ghata

Thank you for this - it is good to know there is another no-one out there sending love. :-)

[JavaJeff]

I also forgot to mention another expectation that I have had: the ability to "see" directly without the sense of "I" arising - to see as it actually is. I have witnessed non-dual teachers engage in this kind of seeing (which looks to the viewer like they're just "spacing out"), and there is always description of pure awe and beauty when they do so.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

Sadness. Alone-ness. Not despair, but just - sadness, to the point there are actual tears in my eyes. I feel how I guess my parents or my wife or kids or friends would feel if they found out I was dead. Just a feeling of deep loss.I just flashed on a powerful moment I had several years ago when solo climbing in the Rocky Mountains. The feeling here is the same - it’s just so damn big, and so impersonal. Not really afraid, just - the thought of how big and cold it all is causes tears and a deep sense of awe.Body sensations of emptiness and heaviness. Some sobbing. Jesus Christ, I’m at work and I’m crying.

awh... very touching... Hugs :-)

In seeing through the Illusion of self, you will not lose anything that is real. I don't know whether you were tricked into believing in Santa when you were a child. Seeing through the Illusion of self is like finding out that there is no real Santa. Nothing happens to Santa, he doesn't die. The child finds out that it believed something that actually isn't the case. That's all.

I also forgot to mention another expectation that I have had: the ability to "see" directly without the sense of "I" arising - to see as it actually is. I have witnessed non-dual teachers engage in this kind of seeing (which looks to the viewer like they're just "spacing out"), and there is always description of pure awe and beauty when they do so.

"In the seen only the seen" - no interpretations; this kind of seeing will eventually be the case. It might not happen right after the gate.

When you are saying "I have witnessed non-dual teachers....."

What does this I refer to?

Don't think about the question, thinking will not give you the answer. Look directly into the experience.

Where is this I felt?
What body sensations are present?
What tells you that this is YOU?

Lots of love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

When you are saying "I have witnessed non-dual teachers....." -- What does this I refer to?

“I” refers to the consciousness watching the teachers do their thing. “I” is the entity behind the eyes as watching occurs. I am aware that this entity, pointed to by the label “I”, is supposedly just a fiction, but this is the conventional way to speak about it, right?

Don't think about the question, thinking will not give you the answer. Look directly into the experience. Where is this I felt?

Mostly this “I” is felt behind the eyes somewhere. Sometimes it has a heart component, but when I am forced to pick a specific place, it always comes back to the space behind the eyes. There is a contraction there that seems like a “me.” But it is amorphous and can’t be pinned down, and when you get close to it, it decides to scoot away and assert that it’s actually somewhere else. And then when you go over there, it comes back to the space behind the eyes.

What body sensations are present?

A slight throbbing in the head space behind the eyes. There is no other physical sensation felt when contemplating “me.”

What tells you that this is YOU?

*I* tell me that. I have been telling me that for 50 years. Plus, I’ve been conditioned to think that way. I gather it was taught to me at a young age.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

thank you for your description of where the I is felt.

“I” refers to the consciousness watching the teachers do their thing. “I” is the entity behind the eyes as watching occurs. I am aware that this entity, pointed to by the label “I”, is supposedly just a fiction, but this is the conventional way to speak about it, right?...
But it is amorphous and can’t be pinned down, and when you get close to it, it decides to scoot away and assert that it’s actually somewhere else. And then when you go over there, it comes back to the space behind the eyes.

What we are doing all the way through the fetters is finding out what is actually experienced and what is added by thoughts as an interpretation.

Put a cup in front of you on the table and look at it.
Describe what is actually seen, the raw sense data.

What gets added as an interpretation, label, construct?

Then apply this to the feeling of I behind the eyes.
What are the raw sense data and what is added as an interpretation, label, construct?

Sending love,
Ghata

[JavaJeff]

Good morning! Thank you for the interesting and eye-opening exercise.

Put a cup in front of you on the table and look at it.
Describe what is actually seen, the raw sense data.
What gets added as an interpretation, label, construct?

I took a clear plastic soda cup, and placed it on the work table in front of me. At first, I thought, “I see a cup.”

Then I looked a bit deeper, and labeled the cup’s characteristics. “I see a clear plastic cup with a round mouth glinting in the light.”

Then I noticed that actually, the idea of ‘clear’ was not really what I was experiencing. I mean, to begin with, “clear” is not even a color. So then I thought, well, I’m just seeing the color of the items behind the cup and extrapolating that to see the cup as clear. But is that true? On closer investigation, what I am really seeing is colors in varying patterns giving the impression of a clear plastic cup. Even the reflections and glints of light off the cup are simply places where white light is hitting my eye. It’s my mind that is interpreting it all as reflection, or as transparency.

And the same thing goes for the thought that the mouth of the cup is round. Actually, from where I sit, it is an oval. I only think that it’s round because my brain gets two slightly different pictures at the same time, and assembles those into a 3D image in the brain, and then compares that to similar objects it has seen in the past, and says, “round.”

Like Buddha’s chariot, the whole concept of “cup” is nothing but a mental construct. There is no cup. There is color and form and - when touched - a feeling of coolness and hardness.

Then apply this to the feeling of I behind the eyes.
What are the raw sense data and what is added as an interpretation, label, construct?

I have said that there is a pressure, or pulsing, or tingling behind my eyes. This feeling is what I have claimed is the self. But on further examination, I'm not convinced that the pressure actually exists. There is an apparent contraction inside the head that seems to increase in intensity when I really start thinking hard, but I can't really say it's a real pressure. Pressure is force per unit area. Just thinking cannot cause force to be applied to the brain, and obviously its area (or volume) is static, so how could there actually be any change or increase in pressure? This seems to just be a phantom feeling.

Anyway, I went outside and sat in the beautiful late summer morning sunshine and used just my senses to "look at" this supposed self. As it turns out, when I simply experience what is actually happening, I cannot hear the self. What is called self has no sound. I cannot see the self. What is called self can’t be seen. I cannot feel the self. What is called self supposedly exists inside my head, and I can’t reach inside to feel it.

I can’t smell or taste my supposed self. My nose and tongue - my olfactory organ and tastebuds - cannot sense the inside of my head. What is called self has no taste or odor.

The only thing I can do is think about this supposed self. But is that fair? Is that even possible? No, I don’t think it is. Thoughts come from “I” - and I can’t use the thing I’m trying to discover, to discover it. It’s like a finger trying to point to itself. It can’t be done.

Or it’s like trying to prove a fact using the fact itself as part of the proof.

From pure experience: There is seeing. Hearing. Touching, thinking and smelling and tasting. But there is not seeing or hearing or tasting or touching or smelling of the I.

There is nothing behind this I. Nothing on its own side, nothing that exists as a seer or hearer or experiencer in any way. It’s a concept, like a cup.

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

you did some very good looking :-)

Like Buddha’s chariot, the whole concept of “cup” is nothing but a mental construct. There is no cup. There is color and form and - when touched - a feeling of coolness and hardness.

Brilliant, how you came down to this observation, Jeff :-)

Pressure is force per unit area. Just thinking cannot cause force to be applied to the brain, and obviously its area (or volume) is static, so how could there actually be any change or increase in pressure? This seems to just be a phantom feeling.

This is a Logical conclusion, a concept.

Anyway, I went outside and sat in the beautiful late summer morning sunshine and used just my senses to "look at" this supposed self. As it turns out, when I simply experience what is actually happening, I cannot hear the self. What is called self has no sound. I cannot see the self. What is called self can’t be seen. I cannot feel the self. What is called self supposedly exists inside my head, and I can’t reach inside to feel it.I can’t smell or taste my supposed self. My nose and tongue - my olfactory organ and tastebuds - cannot sense the inside of my head. What is called self has no taste or odor...

There is nothing behind this I. Nothing on its own side, nothing that exists as a seer or hearer or experiencer in any way. It’s a concept, like a cup.

Good idea to look within the senses and well seen. :-)

The only thing I can do is think about this supposed self. But is that fair? Is that even possible? No, I don’t think it is. Thoughts come from “I” - and I can’t use the thing I’m trying to discover, to discover it. It’s like a finger trying to point to itself. It can’t be done.

Find out where thoughts come from.

Sit and watch one thought arising, the next one, and the next one...

Where do they come frome and where do they go to? Refer to the first-hand experience only.
Can you know a thought before it arises and if you don't like it, stop it from arising?

Is an "I", thinking the thoughts? If so, please describe the I.

Share what you discover.

Sending love,
Ghata

P.S. I will be travelling tomorrow and might only be able to answer your post on Saturday.

[JavaJeff]

Find out where thoughts come from. Sit and watch one thought arising, the next one, and the next one...

Where do they come from, and where do they go to? Refer to the first-hand experience only.

Very hard to discern. They seem to come from nowhere, persist for a while, and then disappear into nothingness. A lot of the ‘favorites’ seem to come up again and again, at random times. It is not clear to me if this is the same thought reasserting itself, or if it’s a different thought on the exact same topic. But that’s mostly a splitting-hairs, who-cares question.

Most of thoughts seem to be situational: they occur either in response to a stimulus that arises, or in regards to either a previous thought. For example, I might be sitting at lunch. An attractive girl walks by. I start thinking about her, enjoying the sight of her, admiring how she looks in her dress. Then I start thinking what she might be like to spend time with, how that might come about, etc. But then she’s gone out of sight, and I remember an old girlfriend who used to have a similar dress, and wasn’t that in California? Ah, the weather there certainly was wonderful. And the tacos!! Man, do I love tacos. Of course, if Donald Trump becomes president, he will outlaw tacos entirely. I can’t believe all the Facebook posts about Trump. Hey, wasn’t there a password breach on Facebook recently? I better go update my security settings...

So as you can see, the thoughts that occur like this make a long string of loosely-connected topics that drift around and around, with no real direction.

Also, it’s clear that at least 90% of my thoughts concern ME. And most of them are either about what happened in the past, or what might happen in the future. Almost none of my thoughts are about not-me (such as simply observing a nice sunrise or hearing birds). And almost none of them are about Now.

Can you know a thought before it arises and if you don't like it, stop it from arising?

No. Definitely not.

Is an "I", thinking the thoughts? If so, please describe the I.

It certainly doesn’t seem so, at least not as I can observe. The thoughts just occur. From where, and why, I have no idea. And even if this “I” is in charge of those thoughts, it does a really bad job at controlling the content, because the content of the thoughts that arise almost never meets the expectation of what “I” wants to think about!

[Ghata]

Hi Jeff,

Very hard to discern. They seem to come from nowhere, persist for a while, and then disappear into nothingness.

Very well seen :-)

A lot of the ‘favorites’ seem to come up again and again, at random times. It is not clear to me if this is the same thought reasserting itself, or if it’s a different thought on the exact same topic. But that’s mostly a splitting-hairs, who-cares question.

This is a beautiful example how interpretation happens. A thought with identical or similar content comes up. The Interpretation is that it is the same thought.
Is there any evidence for it that the thought is the same one or another one with the same content?

For example, I might be sitting at lunch. An attractive girl walks by. I start thinking about her, enjoying the sight of her, admiring how she looks in her dress. Then I start thinking what she might be like to spend time with, how that might come about, etc. But then she’s gone out of sight, and I remember an old girlfriend who used to have a similar dress, and wasn’t that in California? Ah, the weather there certainly was wonderful. And the tacos!! Man, do I love tacos. Of course, if Donald Trump becomes president, he will outlaw tacos entirely. I can’t believe all the Facebook posts about Trump. Hey, wasn’t there a password breach on Facebook recently? I better go update my security settings...

I love it! :-)

Is an "I", thinking the thoughts? If so, please describe the I.

It certainly doesn’t seem so, at least not as I can observe. The thoughts just occur. From where, and why, I have no idea. And even if this “I” is in charge of those thoughts, it does a really bad job at controlling the content, because the content of the thoughts that arise almost never meets the expectation of what “I” wants to think about!

Ha, right!

Also, it’s clear that at least 90% of my thoughts concern ME. And most of them are either about what happened in the past, or what might happen in the future. Almost none of my thoughts are about not-me (such as simply observing a nice sunrise or hearing birds). And almost none of them are about Now.

Lovely observation.

Find out how thoughts work.

Slowly look from one side of the room to the other. What is actually seen, the raw sense data?

And what is added by thoughts? When does it get added? Before it object is seen, during or afterwards?

Sending love,
Ghata