Looking for a guide

[marknathan]

Hi,
I registered on Liberation Unleashed about 7 or 8 months ago, and have been busily coming up with reasons to postpone starting the process ever since: I'm a little busy right now; I'm working quite a lot this week - maybe next week; I have a cold, etc.
I suppose I've been afraid if I'm honest. Which is ironic, as I spent around 12 years engaged in spiritual practice with the aim of seeing through self. But the goal seemed very far off then - impossibly abstract - and hearing about the experiences of friends who have seen through self using this website has both goaded me into action and made me very nervous about it.
However, if there is no self, then seeing that is an imperative and so, if there is a guide free who is willing, I would be very grateful for their help.
Best wishes,
Mark

[codyjdennis]

Hey Mark,
My name is Cody. I'd be happy to guide you :)

Let me know if that's okay and we will get right to it.

Best,
Cody

[marknathan]

Hi Cody,
That would be great, thank you very much. I'm ready when you are.
Mark

[codyjdennis]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for your patience.

Basically all we are doing here is checking in our fresh, live, immediate experience if there is a self. That's it.

At LU we call it Direct Experience. Direct Experience consists of seeing, hearing, tasting, touching and smelling. We could also add feeling and thinking to that, but we are most concerned with the 5 senses because that is the basis/foundation of our "reality".

Just to clear this part up, we are always referencing I, me, mine, myself throughout the day. What we already do know just at the start of this dialogue is that the I, me, mine, myself are thoughts.

What we are really interested here though is checking in our experience if there is actually a self present apart from thoughts. Sometimes I call this "outside of thought". So it's disregarding thought for a moment to actually look at what is here.


So in your experience right now can a self be found?
You can take each sense individually and check with your attention. Like this:

Is there an "I' in seeing?
Is there an "I" in hearing?
Is there an "I" in smelling
etc.

Best,
Cody

[marknathan]

Hi Cody,
Leaving thoughts aside, as you say, no, there is no 'I' in the sense experience itself. There is just what's heard, what's seen, what's tasted, smelt, etc.
Sitting with those questions I felt - just feelings and thoughts,I know - the beginning of an emotional response to the exercise. Like a deeper sense of the relatively superficial intellectual understanding that there is no 'I' present in sense experience. But it didn't quite... I don't know what the word is... 'Pop'? So right now it still feels like a superficial acknowledgement of there being no self in sensing. I don't know if I'm being clear enough? Though perhaps my response at that level isn't relevant at this point?
Thanks,
Mark

[codyjdennis]

Leaving thoughts aside, as you say, no, there is no 'I' in the sense experience itself. There is just what's heard, what's seen, what's tasted, smelt, etc.

Awesome!

Sitting with those questions I felt - just feelings and thoughts,I know - the beginning of an emotional response to the exercise. Like a deeper sense of the relatively superficial intellectual understanding that there is no 'I' present in sense experience. But it didn't quite... I don't know what the word is... 'Pop'? So right now it still feels like a superficial acknowledgement of there being no self in sensing. I don't know if I'm being clear enough? Though perhaps my response at that level isn't relevant at this point?
Thanks,

Do you have an expectation of something popping?

Sometimes there is still an assumption which I will put into words, which goes something like "I don't think I've really seen it" or "I haven't experienced a pop" etc.

Always be interested in the crux of those assumptions/expectations. What exactly is this I that want's to experience the pop? Is it actually here in this moment? You will likely find that those expectations are a projection into a future which does not exist.

Also, sometimes what can happen is it can be seen that there is no actual self in sense experience, yet it's disregarded as un-important or not what "I" am looking for.

Stay with looking in your experience. Again and again check. It's the only thing we are concerned about. Your entire world revolves around this appearance of self.

Is there a self in any kind of experience other than a thought that arises. Take your time and look everywhere for it, leave no stone unturned.

The catch always is it must be somewhere other than thought. If it's only in thought it's imaginary. And the reason it's imaginary is because you cannot feel, see, hear, taste, touch, etc a thought.

[marknathan]

Hi Cody,
I just wanted to check in with you to let you know that I'm still doing a lot of reflection on those questions - looking for an 'I' in sense experience. I'm enjoying it actually. At least most of the time. Resistance pops up and I try to focus on the areas of resistance and doubt.
Is there anything else that I should look at in the meantime?
Thanks,
Mark

[marknathan]

One more quick observation - seeing no self in sensing is the most difficult when it comes to sight, I think. The sense of self seems quite strongly attached to the head and eyes, like it's sitting in there looking out. I'm working on it!

[codyjdennis]

Hey Mark,

Glad to hear you're enjoying it.

The sense of self seems quite strongly attached to the head and eyes, like it's sitting in there looking out. I'm working on it!

Close your eyes for a minute and check if there actually is one "sitting in there looking out".

Can this "you" really be located with your eyes closed? Where is "your" boundary?

Best,
Cody

[marknathan]

Hi Cody,
I'm just checking in again to let you know I haven't gone anywhere - I'm still examining my experience. And I'm still really enjoying it. I'm afraid I still can't help but ask how I'll know when I've "got it". In fairness when that thought comes up I've mostly disregarded it and stayed with my experience, seen it as yet another thought, but can you offer anything on that?
I think there's something "stirring", a deeper emotional resonance, but there are so many blasted thoughts that come up with their "this is MY experience" and "look at ME; I'M getting it", that the experience of staying with the senses can get swamped with the sense of "I" again. I guess that's just par for the course.
I'll keep chipping away...
Best,
Mark

[codyjdennis]

I'm afraid I still can't help but ask how I'll know when I've "got it"

"You" do not get it. The "You" IS the illusion.

I'm not saying to take this on as another belief. Just look in your experience .

Let's make it crazy simple. Is there a self in your actual experience, or is there not. Can one be found?

It's a yes or no question.

[marknathan]

I'm afraid I still can't help but ask how I'll know when I've "got it"

"You" do not get it. The "You" IS the illusion.

I'm not saying to take this on as another belief. Just look in your experience .

Let's make it crazy simple. Is there a self in your actual experience, or is there not. Can one be found?

It's a yes or no question.

In that the case, the answer is no, there isn't. I can't find one. There is sense experience, there are thoughts that arise in a pattern consistent with how they've arisen before.
There is what "feels like" individual will; I can lift my arm above my head; to a limited extent I can choose what to think about. Having said that, I can't find the doer of those things. Turning my hand this way and that in front of my eyes, I notice thoughts about it, but the origin of the decision to do it, I can't see. That's very mysterious. And intellectually I can acknowledge that all this is down to the workings of this organism, without a fixed "I". But have I really seen that?
There are moments, sometimes quite prolonged, where I feel something very hard to describe, but which is unlike anything I ever felt as a result of meditation practice. It feels as though there is more of a shift in perspective. But I'm trying not to entertain any expectations and am content pursuing the questions you asked above and those in the LU phone app. What else can I do?

[codyjdennis]

This is beautiful.

In that the case, the answer is no, there isn't. I can't find one. There is sense experience, there are thoughts that arise in a pattern consistent with how they've arisen before.

YES

I can lift my arm above my head; to a limited extent I can choose what to think about. Having said that, I can't find the doer of those things.Turning my hand this way and that in front of my eyes, I notice thoughts about it, but the origin of the decision to do it, I can't see. That's very mysterious.

That's the key right there. A doer can't be found.

And just to push it a little further how exactly can a thought ("I") choose what to think? That's a little ludicrous right?

What else can I do?

Don't overlook what was just seen in the first part of your response. Exactly where is the "I" that is doing?

From looking into your experience is it more accurate to say that doing is happening or an I is doing them? Again, where is that "I"? Is it actually there in experience or no?

[marknathan]

Hi Cody,
Just checking in. It's been a fair few days and I know others on the site have an agreement to post every day; I know we never agreed on that, but I assume it's a good idea.
I've been reflecting a lot on your last two questions:

Don't overlook what was just seen in the first part of your response. Exactly where is the "I" that is doing?

From looking into your experience is it more accurate to say that doing is happening or an I is doing them? Again, where is that "I"? Is it actually there in experience or no?

It seems more accurate to say that doing is happening. The question of will is still a puzzle though. I suppose, like thoughts feelings and sense experience, will simply arises. But it feels like a strong bastion of "I-ness".
I think, on the whole, the reflection is going deeper. There's a very strong response in the chest, what might be described as a burning sensation. Sometimes, just sometimes, there's a feeling that I'm just on the verge of really seeing, and then it's gone.
There is no "I", and so there is no "I" to see. I think I'm still expecting "myself" to have this experience. I got quite frustrated over the last couple of days. But I'm pushing through.

[codyjdennis]

There is no "I", and so there is no "I" to see.

YES. That is exactly it. Even if thoughts about 'yourself' arise where is it in experience? No-Self isn't an experience. It's as simple as you've seen it. It's just reality. There is no self apart from a thought. It's imaginary.