Guide, do you want to get to know me?

[enlamancha]

I do, I want to surrender to the reality that in fact nothing is separate, and that we are a living organism, just like my dog, a whale, a drop, but my mind doesn’t stop, goes, creates, ideas, images, that my imagination, be that voluntary or not. I know that thoughts are our own worst enemies, I want to believe in my core, that in fact, we are just life living, other beings, they just feel, like when we are kids, magic is possible, and then, we grow and get conditioned by time and space. I have read, I have tried, but in the end my mind just won´t stop, and instead of thinking good things, I go to the bad, or the doubt, or the fear, or the complaint, when everything in my life is so blessed, I am so fortunate, and I don´t see it as often, as I think I should, but then, again, there is no I, according to what I´ve been reading here. My brother, pointed me out to this site, he is younger, and he tells me sentences, he has learnt from here, and they capture me: profound. I am tired of thinking that the future or that any circumstance, will finally make me happy. I am very hard on myself, it´s like I have a military inside of me, the need to be perfect, to excel, to win, to achieve what you think will make you complete. I would like to get some peace and trust that it is what it IS. In this never-ending cosmic road, will someone talk to me? I want to tell someone who is Alonso.

[deezer]

Hello Alonso,

My name is Diarmuid but you can all me d. It is a lot easier to type :-)

Thank you for your honest introduction. I would be happy to help you see that there is no separate self.

There are a few things that we need to go over before the journey begins.

There are a few standard ground rules before we start:

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived, honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://liberationunleashed.com/articles ... xperience/ for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find.

What are your expectations for this process?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:

1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Okay Alonso, most emails wont be this long!

best regards,

d

[enlamancha]

Hi D,

Thanks for getting back to me.

I read the terms and the disclaimer and I agree to them. I would like you to be my guide.

Regarding the questions:

What are your expectations for this process?

To understand that there is no separation of self, and most importantly how will this realization improve my life. I would like to see my true nature and stop living in autopilot.

What is it that you are searching for?

Moments to enjoy, instead of using the present as the means to an end. Eradicate the feeling that there is something always missing or that I need to prove who I am.

How will you know that you found it?

Probably I will feel more at ease, sometimes everything feels like an emergency.

How will this feel?

I guess I´d have to experience it, maybe joy, peace, awe, or all of the above.

How will this change you?

If I get to believe not only as a theory but organically, that I am not in control and that just like anything else, I´m part of existence, then maybe, I would be more relaxed instead of always striving, creating all this movies, thinking that once I get where my mind tells me I should be then I will be complete.

I hope you are having a good day.

Talk to you soon.

Alonso.

[deezer]

Hi Alonso,

I read the terms and the disclaimer and I agree to them. I would like you to be my guide.

Great, I am very happy to go through this process with you.

What are your expectations for this process?

To understand that there is no separation of self, and most importantly how will this realization improve my life. I would like to see my true nature and stop living in autopilot.

What is it that you are searching for?

Moments to enjoy, instead of using the present as the means to an end. Eradicate the feeling that there is something always missing or that I need to prove who I am.

How will you know that you found it?

Probably I will feel more at ease, sometimes everything feels like an emergency.

How will this feel?

I guess I´d have to experience it, maybe joy, peace, awe, or all of the above.

How will this change you?

If I get to believe not only as a theory but organically, that I am not in control and that just like anything else, I´m part of existence, then maybe, I would be more relaxed instead of always striving, creating all this movies, thinking that once I get where my mind tells me I should be then I will be complete.

Thank you for sharing your expectations of what seeing that there is no separate self may be like. It is very different for everybody and by its nature not what one expects. Our expectations are based on a thought about a possible future. What we will be working with is Direct Experience of the here and now.
Let’s put aside all your expectations as they can become a hindrance to seeing and then we can get started.

Take your time with the following statements. Look at it from all angles.

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?

And next:

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all.

What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

Best,

d

Ps.To make your replies as clear as possible and to help me guide you, please use the quote function. To do that, simply highlight the relevant sentence(s)/paragraph(s) that you're replying to in my previous post and press 'copy', then press the 'Quote ' button in the bar above the section you're typing in, then place the cursor in the centre of the two bracketed quote words and then press "paste". That should do it.

[enlamancha]

Hi D,

Nothing exists outside the present moment. Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?

No, only on my thoughts about the existence or the planning of the future.

There is no self at all, no manager, no controller, no doer, thinker, watcher, none as in zero. All there is is life flowing freely, as one movement of totality, that includes all. What thoughts, sensations, feelings come up? If there is fear, what feels threatened?

I feel skeptic about it, if there is no one, what happens to our free will, the one that takes us on different paths. If I do something, its because I set everything in motion, to make it happen. When you have a goal you achieve it. If there is no controller, doer, watcher, thinker, does that mean that no matter what I do, or don´t, in the long run, it won´t have any repercussions in my individual life, because that movement of totality, of free life flowing is just expressing itself trough me and like any other living organism, will do in the end as it pleases? I know I will die when that electricity suddenly stops, but in the meantime, aren´t our decisions the ones that make up our life?

I did the quote function, on my preview screen appears, let´s see if it works when I send it.

Thank you.

Alonso.

[deezer]

Hi Alonso,

Good posting. What time zone are you in? I am in Europe and tend to post in the evening after work and children go to bed. Does that suit you?

Nothing exists outside the present moment. Can you find anything, anything at all, that does?


No, only on my thoughts about the existence or the planning of the future.

Do your thoughts about the existence or the planning of the future exist outside the present moment?

I feel skeptic about it

Skepticism is good. I don’t want you to believe anything. Now is the time for proving through direct experience.

if there is no one, what happens to our free will, the one that takes us on different paths. If I do something, its because I set everything in motion, to make it happen.

Sit with your hands resting on a table. Lift (or don’t lift) either hand (or both).

Tell me how and when a separate entity self decided to lift or not lift either hand, how did this separate self decide to lift the left, rather than the right, or vice versa?

If there is no controller, doer, watcher, thinker, does that mean that no matter what I do, or don´t, in the long run, it won´t have any repercussions in my individual life,

Remember we don’t want to conceptualize what may or may not be, but we want to investigate through the direct experience of what actually IS.

I’d like you to take a look at hearing. Sit for 10 minutes and list off all the things that you can hear. Write them down: ‘I hear birds singing, I hear car engines, I hear leaves rustling, etc.

After the 10 minutes I want you to continue listening but now drop the ‘I’. So now it is ‘hearing birds singing, hearing voices, etc.

Is there a difference? Describe it to me.

Can you find an ‘I” that ‘does’ the hearing?

If yes, where are the boundaries between what is being heard, the hearing process itself and the hearer?

Do the same for seeing, touching, smelling, tasting. Play with the senses. This can be good fun as you go about your day experimenting as you go.

best,

d

[deezer]

Hi Alonso,

Something to add

I know I will die when that electricity suddenly stops

Is this just a thought? Is it real?

Well done on the quoting :-)

d

[enlamancha]

Hey D,

How are you?

I hope you are having a good day. I live in California, United States (Western time zone) Your schedule suits me. I hope mine does as well.

Do your thoughts about the existence or the planning of the future exist outside the present moment?

No, they are happening in the present.

Tell me how and when a separate entity self decided to lift or not lift either hand, how did this separate self decide to lift the left, rather than the right, or vice versa

My brain, gives the order, if I have both hands on a desk or I think about moving them, it happens because my thoughts give direction to my hands.

After the 10 minutes I want you to continue listening but now drop the ‘I’. So now it is ‘hearing birds singing, hearing voices, etc. Is there a difference? Describe it to me.

No, it’s still me listening, even when I drop the I.

Can you find an ‘I” that ‘does’ the hearing?

No, perhaps the I is the invention that the brain creates in order to process reality, but I still feel is me listening to the sounds. My brain listens and then labels the sound.

Do the same for seeing, touching, smelling, tasting. Play with the senses. This can be good fun as you go about your day experimenting as you go.

I will experiment with my other senses during the day, for instance now I´m eating, in this context would eating, happen without the I?

Is this just a thought? Is it real?

It´s a thought that will become real when the electricity stops.

Thank you for taking the time.

Best,

Alonso.

[deezer]

Hi Alonso,

Perfect, we can both use our day to process our answers. I am very well. Thank you.

No, they are happening in the present.

Good. so you can’t find anything at all that exists outside the here and now, including thoughts.

This will be the cornerstone of our investigation, which we can base on what we experience in the here and now, after all nothing else exists.

Tell me how and when a separate entity self decided to lift or not lift either hand, how did this separate self decide to lift the left, rather than the right, or vice versa

My brain, gives the order, if I have both hands on a desk or I think about moving them, it happens because my thoughts give direction to my hands.

Go for a short walk. Does your brain give any order to move one foot infront of the other? Don’t rehash a biology teaching but tell me what you experience as you walk.
Do your thoughts give direction to your legs, feet, arms, etc, as you walk?

Can you find an ‘I” that ‘does’ the hearing?

No, perhaps the I is the invention that the brain creates in order to process reality, but I still feel is me listening to the sounds.

Tell me the difference between I, brain, and me in this sentence

My brain listens and then labels the sound.

Can listening happen before labeling?

I will experiment with my other senses during the day

Good, put as much as you can into this. Really try to pinpoint where the seer, the act of seeing, and the seen are separate or where they mold together. I look forward to hearing about what you find.

now I´m eating, in this context would eating, happen without the I?

You tell me, as you swallow your food is there an separate ‘I’ responsible, or does swallowing just happen? As the food is digested, is there a ‘separate ‘I’ orchestrating or does it just happen?

It´s a thought that will become real when the electricity stops.

You have already said that nothing exists outside the here and now. Has the electricity stopped? Are our thoughts about the future real?

There's a lot going on here. Take your time. Really investigate before you answer.

Have a great day,

d

[enlamancha]

Hey D,

Go for a short walk. Does your brain give any order to move one foot in front of the other? Don’t rehash a biology teaching but tell me what you experience as you walk. Do your thoughts give direction to your legs, feet, arms, etc, as you walk?

I realize that if I get conscious on walking, I can think, this foot will go first, but this is because I was very conscious about this exercise now, on a regular basis, it doesn’t happen this way, when I go for a walk, movement happens,I don´t have to send thoughts to my feet or to they way my arms bounce, it happens on its own, after I gave the original command: I want to go for a walk.

Tell me the difference between I, brain, and me in this sentence

I think the I is in the brain, the brain probably is the one that gives identity and reinforcement, to that I. If I analyse this, I can kind of grasp that indeed the I is or could be an invention, it is just a creation based on conditioning. You are this nationality, this religion, this family, the list goes on, and you get that fabrication of an I. What would happen if I was born into a forest with no one around, would that I exist as rooted as it is right now in me? Or would I be just an organisms trying to survive, sensing rather than labelling, this is wrong or, this is right.

Can listening happen before labeling?

I think it can, first you listen, then you label what you listened to. Now, if my dog Jack, listens, he doesn’t label, he just reacts. I just heard a car out the window, and for an instant I think I heard it and labelled it at the same time, it happened instantly.

Really try to pinpoint where the seer, the act of seeing, and the seen are separate or where they mold together. I look forward to hearing about what you find.

Not sure, what this means, seer would be me, seeing could be the act of observation, and seen what I´m seeing? If this is the case, now I was looking at a tree, the seer and the act of seeing mold together, and the seen is separate.

You tell me, as you swallow your food is there an separate ‘I’ responsible, or does swallowing just happen? As the food is digested, is there a ‘separate ‘I’ orchestrating or does it just happen?

I decide I will do the swallowing, but then the digestive process, just happens on its own, There is no controller, or doer here, my organism takes care of it without my thoughts.

You have already said that nothing exists outside the here and now. Has the electricity stopped? Are our thoughts about the future real?

Even thou all thinking occurs in the present, those thoughts about the future could be real, if what I think about the future in the present ends up happening.

During the day, I will keep thinking and going back to your questions and observations.

Thank you.

Have a good one!

Alonso.

[deezer]

Hi Alonso,

Nice to hear from you.

Go for a short walk. Does your brain give any order to move one foot in front of the other? Don’t rehash a biology teaching but tell me what you experience as you walk. Do your thoughts give direction to your legs, feet, arms, etc, as you walk?

I realize that if I get conscious on walking, I can think, this foot will go first, but this is because I was very conscious about this exercise now, on a regular basis, it doesn’t happen this way, when I go for a walk, movement happens,

Exactly, when was the last time you told yourself to put one foot infront of the other? Do you tell yourself to lift every forkful of food to your mouth or does it just happens?

I don’t have to send thoughts to my feet or to they way my arms bounce, it happens on its own

Very good. So when you are walking (or driving, or sitting) it happens naturally without thinking about it. Do you agree?

after I gave the original command: I want to go for a walk

Now I want you to sit on the couch. Just sit. Relax. Enjoy.

What happens next?

Did you tell yourself to stand up? Or did it just happen on its own and almost immediately you had the thought ‘I just stood up’?

Did a thought label the action or did the thought create the actions?

Look at this closely in different cirmumstances and tell me what you discover, with examples please.

Tell me the difference between I, brain, and me in this sentence


I think the I is in the brain, the brain probably is the one that gives identity and reinforcement, to that I. If I analyse this, I can kind of grasp that indeed the I is or could be an invention, it is just a creation based on conditioning. You are this nationality, this religion, this family, the list goes on, and you get that fabrication of an I. What would happen if I was born into a forest with no one around, would that I exist as rooted as it is right now in me? Or would I be just an organisms trying to survive, sensing rather than labelling, this is wrong or, this is right.

I’m sorry Alonso, but what does this have to do with direct experience? Tell me and tell me honestly, right now.

Can listening happen before labeling?


I think it can, first you listen, then you label what you listened to.

Yes. Now listen more. Give me some examples of what you mean please. ☺

Now, if my dog Jack, listens, he doesn’t label, he just reacts.

Are you a dog called jack? I want to hear about your direct experience.

Really try to pinpoint where the seer, the act of seeing, and the seen are separate or where they mold together. I look forward to hearing about what you find.


Not sure, what this means, seer would be me, seeing could be the act of observation, and seen what I´m seeing? If this is the case, now I was looking at a tree, the seer and the act of seeing mold together, and the seen is separate.

Seer and seeing tree, are the same, where is the tree separate? Tell me exactly where the separation is? use example please

I decide I will do the swallowing, but then the digestive process, just happens on its own, There is no controller, or doer here, my organism takes care of it without my thoughts

Do you decide to swallow every bite of food or mouthful of water? Or does it just happen? Tell me how this works?

Even thou all thinking occurs in the present, those thoughts about the future could be real, if what I think about the future in the present ends up happening.

]Could, if, ends up,..... lots of ....

If you think about Santa, is he real?

If you think 'University' is it real? Is it a label to describe something so that we can communicate?

If you think 'table', is it real, as you experience your hand on laying on it?

Very good Alonso, again take you time to answer. Let yourself experience rather than think.

You are doing very well.

d

[enlamancha]

Hi D,

It´s midnight over here, so probably you are sleeping now…

I read it in the morning before I left to my office and tought about it.

Exactly, when was the last time you told yourself to put one foot in front of the other? Do you tell yourself to lift every forkful of food to your mouth or does it just happens?

I just walk, without thinking about which foot goes first. It just happens, like a series of repetitions, regarding the question on the food. I decide that I´m going to eat, I take the fork once, and then I just keep putting the fork in the plate, beacause I know that´s what I need to do, but I don´t have to think it every time.

So, when you are walking (or driving, or sitting) it happens naturally without thinking about it. Do you agree?

I feel only at the beginning you have the thought about the action you want to perform, and then it happens, automatic. Regarding driving I will have to analyze and catch myself if I’m thinking or it´s automatic. If I need to make a left, I think and perform the action, don´t do it in automatic.

Now I want you to sit on the couch. Just sit. Relax. Enjoy. What happens next? Did you tell yourself to stand up? Or did it just happen on its own and almost immediately you had the thought ‘I just stood up’?

I almost immediately had the thought I just stood up, but it changes, if I´m in bed, and I want to get up, I think about getting up, but I can also suddenly jump out of bed, without thinking, like a reflex.

Did a thought label the action or did the thought create the actions?

The toughts create the actions and also label it.

Look at this closely in different circumstances and tell me what you discover, with examples please.

I went for a walk, and suddenly I gazed at the sky, but it was involuntary, I had no I or thought thinking look up, it just happened automatic, I’m not saying this happens to me daily, but with these conversations, today I did catch myself, looking up without me ordering to look up.

I’m sorry Alonso, but what does this have to do with direct experience? Tell me and tell me honestly, right now.

I drifted to something else, trying to explain to myself I guess. I´m understading that the more direct the better, I tend to analyze over and over.

Can listening happen before labeling? I think it can, first you listen, then you label what you listened to. Yes. Now listen more. Give me some examples of what you mean please. ☺

Now I heard a car go by, and it felt that in the same instant that I hear what it is I have the label. It´s automatic. The recognition of the sound comes at the same time I´m listening to it.

Seer and seeing tree, are the same, where is the tree separate? Tell me exactly where the separation is? use example please.

I´m seeing the tree as an external object, apart from my visión.

Do you decide to swallow every bite of food or mouthful of water? Or does it just happen? Tell me how this works?

I decide at first, but then it starts happening, like I feel it´s just an automatic process, where you know you have to keep eating.

If you think about Santa, is he real?

No, its an invention of my toughts.

If you think 'University' is it real? Is it a label to describe something so that we can communicate?

It´s a label, a word, that we have gave a meaning to describe something.

If you think 'table', is it real, as you experience your hand on laying on it?

No, but no, I´m writing and I feel my hands in top of the desk and it feels real.

Thanks a lot for your time, as you say I must experience more the exercises, rather than thinking. My mind just won´t stop is from one tought to the next.

Talk to you soon.

Alonso.

[deezer]

Hi Alonso,

I was most probably in bed, although it was not early enough!

I am glad you are taking the day to answer.

Exactly, when was the last time you told yourself to put one foot in front of the other? Do you tell yourself to lift every forkful of food to your mouth or does it just happens?

I just walk, without thinking about which foot goes first. It just happens, like a series of repetitions, regarding the question on the food. I decide that I´m going to eat, I take the fork once, and then I just keep putting the fork in the plate, beacause I know that´s what I need to do, but I don´t have to think it every time.

Wonderful. Walking just happens.
Try this exercise:
If you have the chance to go for a random walk it would be great. Don’t have any end destination in mind. Just walk. As you go you will have to turn left or right or stop. Observe the whole process.
If you find an open field you can try this with no pathway. Just a random walk and if you turn/stop/run then observe what instigated it.
Tell me how these actions happen. Is there a separate self dictating?

You mention a series of reptitions. Remember that there is only the here and now. Each step you take, although it is similar to the previous, it is a unique expression of now.

I decide that I´m going to eat, I take the fork once, and then I just keep putting the fork in the plate, beacause I know that´s what I need to do, but I don´t have to think it every time.

Does a separate self decide it’s time to eat when you are not hungry? Or is it hunger that 'decides' it’s time to eat and then the separate self jumps in and says ‘I decided to eat’
At which point (exactly) did your separate self not need to tell you to use the fork anymore?

So, when you are walking (or driving, or sitting) it happens naturally without thinking about it. Do you agree?

I feel only at the beginning you have the thought about the action you want to perform, and then it happens, automatic.

So there is a first thought and then it's automatic. By automatic you mean no doer, no controller?

Let's look at how thoughts happen:
Think of a car. Describe the car to me. How did the image come into your mind? Why did that particular car come to mind and not another type of car? Why that colour?
Did a separate self decide which type of car was to appear, before it came to mind?

Now I want you to sit on the couch. Just sit. Relax. Enjoy. What happens next? Did you tell yourself to stand up? Or did it just happen on its own and almost immediately you had the thought ‘I just stood up’?

I almost immediately had the thought I just stood up, but it changes, if I´m in bed, and I want to get up, I think about getting up, but I can also suddenly jump out of bed, without thinking, like a reflex.

Good, keep up this observation throughout the day and in different circumstances. Any time you make a choice try to find out exactly how this choice was made. Tell me some more examples as you discover them.

I went for a walk, and suddenly I gazed at the sky, but it was involuntary, I had no I or thought thinking look up, it just happened automatic, I’m not saying this happens to me daily, but with these conversations, today I did catch myself, looking up without me ordering to look up.

Great so thought did not create the action. It just happened. Also after it happened you didn't label the action with 'I just did that'
This is very good. Keep up the good work and tell me more as they arise.

I’m sorry Alonso, but what does this have to do with direct experience? Tell me and tell me honestly, right now.

I drifted to something else, trying to explain to myself I guess. I´m understading that the more direct the better, I tend to analyze over and over.

Fantastic. Remember this. You are doing very well. :-)

Can listening happen before labeling?

I think it can, first you listen, then you label what you listened to.

Now I heard a car go by, and it felt that in the same instant that I hear what it is I have the label. It´s automatic. The recognition of the sound comes at the same time I´m listening to it.

Look. Which is it?

Seer and seeing tree, are the same, where is the tree separate? Tell me exactly where the separation is? use example please.

I´m seeing the tree as an external object, apart from my visión.

How can you 'seeing the tree' ... 'apart from my vision'?
Are seeing and vision not the same? Where is the divide? Where is the tree seen?

I´m writing and I feel my hands in top of the desk and it feels real.

Good, it is real. You experience it directly.

Thanks a lot for your time, as you say I must experience more the exercises, rather than thinking. My mind just won´t stop is from one tought to the next.

Thinking is part of direct experience. Can you tell me the difference between thinking and thought content?

It is my pleasure. Your answers are very good and and very honest. Keep it up. :-)

d

[enlamancha]

Hi D,

I hope you had a great day.

I just got home.

I read what you wrote, but my brain feels fried tonight, so much work at the office. I want to read it tomorrow when Im fresh so, I can practice what you are telling me.

I will be out of town, tomorrow until monday, I´m not sure If I will have access, I do have my phone, but writing with the quote function on it, could be a puzzle.

I wanted to let you know, just in case, I have no access, and you don´t hear from me. Monday night I will be back home.


Thanks a lot, now I am going to bed, cause Morpheus, is demanding my presence…

Have a great day.

Alonso.

[deezer]

Hi Alonso,

That is very understandable. No problem on my side and thanks for letting me know.

You can use the weekend to flush out any questions that may come up from the exercises.

Have a great weekend if I don't hear from you.

d