Step in if you're ready

[Pallavi]

Step in if you're ready :)

Please read the disclaimer in the board index.

A few ground rules from my side:

Try as much to reply at least once a day to keep the momentum going.
Keep away all philosophies and practices that you have been engaging with, just for the process- it's best to come in with an open mind.
If you meditate you may continue with that. Try to keep your answers concise, but don't sacrifice clarity for brevity.
I will ask you questions or give you exercises to do. I ask you to answer with full honesty. If you can't answer it's ok to say you don't know.
If you're ok with these we can continue :)

[flute]

hi I am ready to step in

[flute]

I would like to add that i have only recently become acquainted with non-duality. I have always been a seeker though, trying to read up on philosophy and stuff, or just sitting and thinking about "everything". I have never meditated seriously, i hope it is not a problem.

I would also like to admit before i begin that i am a little afraid of this thing. I shall, however, try my best.

[Pallavi]

Hi Flute (if I may call you that),

No problems with any of that- I was exactly like that before I started out.

What brought you to LU?
Tell me a bit about your journey so far.
What are your expectations from this process?

[flute]

Actually I found LU randomly one day while surfing.

I forgot to mention, I am 21 years old and a college student right now. But still there is some kind of curiosity that has been present my entire life.

My journey has been going on for a some time now. For some time I believed in stuff like Crystals, faith healing, Atlantis, conspiracy theories and stuff like that. Then I felt it was not really a very good explanation of whats going on. This part of the journey began when I read a book by Alduos Huxley, who wrote about his psychedelic experiences and compared it to zen enlightenment. I started reading about zen koans, taoism and articles by awakened people all of which culminated at reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. After that I had some notions about no self experience: it should be achievable, it should not be supernatural. Most people seemed to disagree with me until I found LU. Here people define enlightenment exactly as I feel it should be.

As for my expectations:
1. An end to seeking.
2. Some answers to questions that have been plaguing me.
3. Becoming more stable, not having to go through bouts of self doubt and emotional rollercoasters.
4. I hope to uncover the hypocrisies of my personality.
5. I hope to rest my insecurities a bit
6. I hope that awakening does not lead to a fall in my zest for life. I hope that I will be able to put in more energy into things I love, not less.

Even if you say that many or all of my expectations are unrealistic, sure, i will be disheartened, but i have this feeling that i will keep coming. Maybe my primary motivating factor is curiosity...

[Pallavi]

Alright :) I'm 22 and gated a while ago ;)

"Becoming more stable, not having to go through bouts of self doubt and emotional rollercoasters.
4. I hope to uncover the hypocrisies of my personality.
5. I hope to rest my insecurities a bit
6. I hope that awakening does not lead to a fall in my zest for life. I hope that I will be able to put in more energy into things I love, not less. "

Are these things you hope to do and do you think these are things awakening will give you?

Our process here is simple- we guide you in the right direction, and if you're ready and willing to look, you will. There is no guarantee about how you would feel after the process- gating is just a beginning, the rest will unfold on it's own. We only help you see through the illusion of the self. I'm not going to tell you whether your expectations are unrealistic from awakening- I just want to make sure that from our side we make it clear what we can help you with. Sometimes there are fireworks, sometimes it is gradual. Sometimes there is chaos, sometimes there is peace. You can never predict how it will be- it is different for every person.

What do you define enlightenment as? Why does LU appeal to you?

How would you define the 'self' in your world view?

[flute]

Are these things you hope to do and do you think these are things awakening will give you?

Not necessarily, I am already doing these things; what i hope is that gating will leave them untouched.

What do you define enlightenment as?

Well, let me put it like this. All my life I have been looking for underpinnings of morality, good and evil. I mean its not an academic pursuit but a personal one. These questions, which are generally (but not always) of an ethical nature, do not leave me alone and the need to settle them for once and for all is quite an intense one. For all my journeys perhaps the most impressive piece was Rene Descartes statement "I think, therefore I am". But that statement leads me no where further, it appears to be true but does not help me. So enlightenment to me would be seeing the true nature of existence and resolving all my doubts once and for all.

Why does LU appeal to you?

LU appears to be quite direct in its approach and has results that are quite astonishing.

How would you define the 'self' in your world view?

In my world view my 'self' appears to be that thought process which gets sensory inputs and decides what to do next based on my memories. 'Self' gets happy, sad, depressed, angry etc. 'Self' is always present, always accessible and has an opinion on what the body should be doing. I know that people say its all an illusion, but my 'Self' does seem to prefer chocolate ice-cream over vanilla

[Pallavi]

Alright. From now on pretend as though you have amnesia and have no prior knowledge of science and stuff. You will answer only from your direct experience.

Are your thoughts only formed from sensory experience? If I asked you to imagine a purple flying cat, can you imagine one?

Take a look at your breathing. Were you aware of your breathing until I asked you about it? Do you need to have a thought about breathing to be able to breathe?

[Pallavi]

You have spoken of thoughts, sensory experience, the body, memories. These are many things. Where is the self in this?

Exercise:

Go out point at a rock. You are pointing to show where the rock is.

Does the rock stop existing if you stop pointing?
Can you mistake your fingers for the rock at any point in time?
Call it 'rock' then call it 'my rock'. What difference do you feel?

Assume you bought the rock and took it home. It then gets stolen from you. How would you feel?

[flute]

Ok no more long winded philosophical monologues :)

Are your thoughts only formed from sensory experience? If I asked you to imagine a purple flying cat, can you imagine one?

I can very easily imagine a purple flying cat. IMO, thoughts might originate from other thoughts as well.

Take a look at your breathing. Were you aware of your breathing until I asked you about it? Do you need to have a thought about breathing to be able to breathe?

No.

You have spoken of thoughts, sensory experience, the body, memories. These are many things. Where is the self in this?

There is no self in sense of touch, but I do feel things when i touch them. Thats the best i can say. Where the sense of self is? I am having a hard time trying to express that.

Well mostly every few seconds thoughts about I arise in the mind. If I may be blunt, "I-ness" seems to reside in between my two eyes.

I need some more time to work on the exercise....

[flute]

Go out point at a rock. You are pointing to show where the rock is.

Does the rock stop existing if you stop pointing?
Can you mistake your fingers for the rock at any point in time?
Call it 'rock' then call it 'my rock'. What difference do you feel?

Assume you bought the rock and took it home. It then gets stolen from you. How would you feel?

I shall answer the last question first.

Calling it 'my rock ' definitely feels a lot different than calling it 'rock'. There was a sense of attachment and a kind of worry for the rock. It feels like I have somehow decided that that rock should be with me all the time. If it does get stolen it will lead to anguish.

As for pointing, yes it does feel a little different if you point at rock all the time. Its like the pointing and rock together might be mistaken for rock itself i.e. one might assume pointing is essential part of rock.

[Pallavi]

Alright. So in your breathing you saw that you weren't aware of 'your' breathing until I asked you.
Take a look at your thoughts. Do they own the experience or does the thought that 'you' are experiencing come after the experience?

Observe your thoughts- can you control them? Can you control what thoughts should come? Can you stop them from coming even for the smallest amount of time? Are they always real (remember the purple flying cat)?

Think of some random numbers.

do they come up as '7!', '90!', 65!

Or- 'I know 7!' , 'I know 90'!, ' I know 65!'

Replace rock with experience and fingers with 'I'.

The rock remains a rock whether you call it mine or not right?
When you start owning the rock- and it gets stolen, you become unhappy.
And yes after pointing for a long time- the pointing becomes more important than the rock itself. Replace rock with experience and fingers with 'I' and see.

You're walking, and you suddenly trip and fall. Would 'you' blame yourself for this?

"If I may be blunt, "I-ness" seems to reside in between my two eyes. "

Is this something you see in your direct experience?

"There is no self in sense of touch, but I do feel things when i touch them. "

What is 'I' for you? What is the difference between self/I/you/me?

[flute]

Still here...i need some time

[Pallavi]

Hi, I haven't had a response from you. I would like a response soon or else would like to take on another client in the time I have been allotting for you.

[flute]

I am sorry for such late reply. I was having some difficulty in tackling your questions.

Anyways rather than wait indefinitely till an answer comes that makes some sense i shall try to present whatever I think right now.

Do they own the experience or does the thought that 'you' are experiencing come after the experience?

I dont think the thought that the experience is mine always comes after the experience. Say for example when i hear a sound i wouldnt think of myself hearing the sound. But if you ask me "is that you who is hearing the sound?" i will say yes.

Think of some random numbers.

do they come up as '7!', '90!', 65!

Or- 'I know 7!' , 'I know 90'!, ' I know 65!'

I did this excercise for quite a while. At the very beginning itself i felt that the case is latter.
But I was not sure.
But what i did feel was that thinking up random numbers was more like remembering numbers, than seeing them. It is more like 'I know 7!' than '7!' out of the blue. There certainly was an 'I' component to the thought.


Next you asked me to replace rock with experience and fingers with 'I'. This exercise is a little difficult to follow. I need a little more time with this.

The 'I' between the eye thing was a concept i had from way back. Its like i always thought that all the thinking is going on between the eyes.

"There is no self in sense of touch, but I do feel things when i touch them. "

What is 'I' for you? What is the difference between self/I/you/me?

I just had this feeling that that last bit of the sentence "I do feel things when i touch them" is kind of arbitrary. There is no reason to believe that i feel things when i touch them. I mean that might be true, that might be false. In a way that sentence has no way of being tested to be true. It is out of what you called 'Direct Experience'. Its like i am following some kind of social convention when i say i feel things when i touch them. I had this idea that everyone sort of agrees to this so why not say this. That sentence might be even completely meaningless.

As for taking on another client, please Pallavi dont let go of me, you are my only guide in this deep, dark, friendless world....what would i do without you?