Needing Guidance

[SunDew]

Hi, I'm new to forum tecnicalities and hope I get it right - I've been following the site for a while, have almost finished the book, and feel that to go on I need some personal help...Is there somebody available?
Thanks very much - Sundew

[Behzad]

Hello Sundew,

Welcome. I would love guide you, if it`s okej for you?

There are a few ground rules - the usual - please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting.
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


And please, try to keep the language as simple as possible, because English is my second language. If this is fine with you we can start the process : )

So, What are your expectations for liberation?
How will this feel?
How will this change you?
What will happen if you see this?

Go really in for the question my frieand, be honest and answer with 110% honesty. Put all the expectations on the table so to speak so we can see them together. We have a lot of those in our bagage all of us. Lets see what you got?

Love
Behzad

[SunDew]

Hi Bhezad, thank you - of course I agree to all the terms but I need a clarification. Besides meditation I have committed to a Reiki long distance healing group which ends on march 17th (I am one of the healers)- is this OK???-
If so we can start - warmly Sundew

[Behzad]

Yes, its no problem. But usually to keep the communication as clean as possible its good to not engage in other teachings, books etc so we can take a good freash look at reality as it is together. But ofcourse if you are committed to a Reiki long distance healing group you should absolutly continue till the end.

But here we are not going to discuss healing, chakras, energies, kundalini and so on : )

Here we keep the focus on the I, if there really is such a thing at all. When you are clear on that, then you can go on and do whatever you want, and it will be fine : )

So please, answer the expectation questions, and take good time, there is no hurry. Be precise and bring out all the expectations. It is as if you are cleaning youre house, if you leave a little dirt around here and there, then probably the dirt will bother you later. So clean it good so you dont get bothered. Take youre time....

[SunDew]

Great- thank you

[SunDew]

Hello Sundew,

Welcome. I would love guide you, if it`s okej for you?

There are a few ground rules - the usual - please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting.
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660


And please, try to keep the language as simple as possible, because English is my second language. If this is fine with you we can start the process : )

So, What are your expectations for liberation?
How will this feel?
How will this change you?
What will happen if you see this?

Go really in for the question my frieand, be honest and answer with 110% honesty. Put all the expectations on the table so to speak so we can see them together. We have a lot of those in our bagage all of us. Lets see what you got?

Love
Behzad

[SunDew]

Dear Behzad, here are some answers

So, What are your expectations for liberation?

I have been searching with different teachers for the past 37 years (I’m almost 70) – for a long time I was convinced that liberation was peace, silence etc – and this is what I could experience easily in meditation. However I always thought that liberation/ enlightment meant “being rooted in silence, peace etc…. I expected an aha moment of recognition in which I would identify with silence, peace etc. This is the real “Iness”…this is truth. And it NEVER happened
Somehow I never questioned the fictitiousness of “I” – it is scary and disquieting
After finding this site, listening to the audios, reading the book (especially when I’ve just done it )I often find myself in a different state of being…looking and seeing that a hand is moving…water coming out of the tap…the sound of the typewriter. It is a very new experience for an analytical mind. Very childlike: there is curiosity, awe…miracles that keep on happening. Life is suddenly very interesting and full of expectancy in its smallest aspects. Yes I heard it all for decades but experience as always is a very different thing. Then suddenly this “state of consciousness is gone”. It came by itself…it goes by itself. The “I” comes back.

How will this feel?

The grounding of what I’ve been experiencing- which means freedom and lightness and all the things I told you I have been experiencing… life really turning up-side-down

How will this change you?

I will not believe in the content of my thoughts (and be caught up in them)but recognize them as “passing objects” …see them coming- see them going…from where to where??’ I don’t know- it is part of the magic. I will not need to perform any more ..live up to my “standards” or anybody else’s… because these are just thoughts and I’ll recognize them. I will not be so judgemental and critical towards myself and others because I will recognize the “thought pattern” as it is and just let it be and just let it pass. I won’t be so serious… could really start having fun like I’ve never had even as a child…. Born again (what a wonder..what a relief)

What will happen if you see this?

I don’t see any difference with the previous question – if I change, the outside changes, perception changes, reactions change and therefore the quality of life

Hope the English is OK for you... love Sundew

[Behzad]

The english is very good and thank you for the good work on the expectation part.

Honestly Sundew, to see/know the truth we dont need any expectation. They are totally meaningless, really. I will tell you why.

Its like you are standing on the mountain and looking at a view and you have youre sun glasses that are on. The expectations are like the dirt on the sun glasses. Making it difficult to see the view. Do you need the dirt on the sun glasses to see the view? ofcourse not, you will see the view with or whitout the dirt on the sun glasses, but taking away the dirt makes it easier to see the view, right : ) ?

To have expectations on how liberation will be, how this will change you and how this would feel is too exclude liberation and put it in a box so to speak and say this is Liberation, this is the truth. But this isnt about excluding anything, this is about including everything that happens.

When we have expectations on how liberation will be, what happens to everything else that we think is not liberation like anger, chaos, sadness, anxiety, bad behaviour, not behaving like an enlightened one etc will they never appear anymore? To exclude Liberation, to have an idea on how it will be, how it will look like, to have a concept about how liberation will be is to deny all other experiences that is in life, it is to ecxlude some parts of life, right? And this is basically about recognising that life is all there is, therefore we cant have expectations on how life should look like. Because life is not operating in this way in reality. Have you notice all around the world in how many different forms life manifest? Do you think its possible to have life moving and flowing in a few certain ways only, is that realistic?

Life is not static its moving all the time.

I hope you have seen now that we dont need any expectation whatsoever to see the truth. We have to let those go so you can know the truth for youreself then you will see wich expectations match with the truth and those that dont, will fall off, nothing to have.



So are you ready to leave the expectations behind for now?

If you are then we start to investigate and look. Please take youre time to answer the questions, go in for it and find your own answers. When I ask a question then I am only interested in youre direct experience answers. This isnt about going back and giving me answer from youre book of knowledege in the mind. Answers should be freash and coming directly from youre direct experience, not from the head. Only place you need to look is here and now. So its very simple, you dont need any thought to do this, you dont need to think just looking is enough : )

So we have words that points to objects. Like the word flower points to the actual flower, right. So the word is not the thing it points to. You cant smell the word flower only the actual flower.

So what does I point to?

Take youre time Sundew....

[SunDew]

Its like you are standing on the mountain and looking at a view and you have youre sun glasses that are on.

Just reading this Ist part I burst out crying, felt stupid as if something precious had just been taken away, and then a great lostness…now what???
I realize the intelligence and obvious truth of what you say –and my own blindness.
I say yes because I feel committed to this, but again tears come up and the fear of “not getting it”
If seeing is effortless and it is… why do I feel the effort? Why is it so difficult? So many questions and no answer. To me this leads to insanity ( because it is a dead end)

So are you ready to leave the expectations behind for now?

YES

So what does I point to?

Lostness…where do I go from here ??
Every thought has “I” at its roots, which are followed by emotions.
So now I disregard it all (but who decided to do it? ) ….and there are bodily sensations…. Elbows on the table…Typing all this….the sound of distant traffic… and of inner quiet. No questions..no answers (at least for a while)..aaah peace and quiet.
Was engaged in other things for a few hours – now I’m back and much calmer, less emotional at the idea of tackling the “I”stuff –
I is made up of different components – body, mind, emotions, thoughts and feelings – When Sundew says I – she is referring to one of these things, but if she lost a leg she would still be Sundew…all the other issues are pretty volatile in nature …sometimes sweet, other times horrible, intelligent, stupid, thinking- not thinking… yet always the same Sundew, so this name points to opposites. Where is she???
At this point I could say “she ia a concept” (BUT it is an intellectual obviousness) – something inside does not agree.
In fact there is often much argument going on: Have to do this…No No I don’t want to and then the emotion
The emotion right now is just a blank!!! I’ll stay with the blank and just look. I'm switching off - see you tomorrow
much love Sundew

[Behzad]

Just reading this Ist part I burst out crying, felt stupid as if something precious had just been taken away, and then a great lostness…now what???
I realize the intelligence and obvious truth of what you say –and my own blindness.
I say yes because I feel committed to this, but again tears come up and the fear of “not getting it”

Beautiful Sundew, good. You can let them go. They are not needed here.

We will look into if there is anything here that can get anything or not getting it. Maybe there is or maybe not. You have to look and find out. This part I cant do for you. I could sit and give you all the answers but that would not help you and you would be left exactly at the same place where you are now but with maybe some different beliefs/thoughts.

All I can do is to point you to right direction. Then you have to look and find the answers.

I is made up of different components – body, mind, emotions, thoughts and feelings – When Sundew says I – she is referring to one of these things, but if she lost a leg she would still be Sundew…all the other issues are pretty volatile in nature …sometimes sweet, other times horrible, intelligent, stupid, thinking- not thinking… yet always the same Sundew, so this name points to opposites. Where is she???

So lets look at this.

Sundew points to the body, could you pinpoint exactly where in/on the body this I is?
Sundew points to the mind, look in direct experience if you find any mind? If you find, then where is it located?
Sundew points to the emotions/feelings, wich of the emotions/feelings are you refering to? happiness, sadness, loneliness, lostness, tiredness etc... There is so many emotions/feelings, wich one of them is Sundew? Is it one of them or is Sundew all of them at the same time?
Sundew points to the thoughts? A human being has approximately 60-70 000 thoughts a day, are all of these thoughts Sundew? Or are some of them Sundew? And when there is no thoughts, where is Sundew then?

At this point I could say “she ia a concept” (BUT it is an intellectual obviousness) – something inside does not agree.
In fact there is often much argument going on: Have to do this…No No I don’t want to and then the emotion
The emotion right now is just a blank!!!

When there is argument there has to be 2 persons, 2 voices to argue. There is a expression that says "it takes 2 people to dance tango", you cant dance tango with yourself and if you dance tango with youre self then thats not real tango : )

So, you cant argue with yourself, right? There has to be 2 voices, 2 refrencepoints to argue.
So wich one of these are you? That there is 2 different voices you are aware of, can you look to see if there is any person, any solid entity that sees/that are aware of both of the voices/thoughts? Is there any person, any Sundew that is looking at the argumentation?


Look at all of this question carefully and answer. Answer from youre direct experience...
Take youre time and have fun. Let it be intresting, be curious, like you want to look, see and find out how it really is. And only place you can see how it really is, is in direct experience not in the mind. Be curious about the I, look at it from every angle and find out what it is.

Does it really exist?

[SunDew]

OK so at the beginning of your mail, tears, fear, lots of emotion. Started answering and the last sentence really got me – have fun, find it interesting. I realized there was an enormous amount of pressure, self-judgment, anxiety, have to get there and get there first. Can’t do it….oh my God!!!! But it’s impossible to see in these conditions – almost as if the goal was not “seeing” but ME getting IT. So now I’ll start again

So lets look at this.

Sundew points to the body, could you pinpoint exactly where in/on the body this I is?

Nowhere

Sundew points to the mind, look in direct experience if you find any mind? If you find, then where is it located?

The mind is a concept/term she learned about from others… No idea where this mind is - She would say there is a felt sense of beingness that is always present, unless it is obscured by thoughts or emotions

Sundew points to the emotions/feelings, wich of the emotions/feelings are you refering to? happiness, sadness, loneliness, lostness, tiredness etc... There is so many emotions/feelings, wich one of them is Sundew? Is it one of them or is Sundew all of them at the same time?

No emotion is Sundew – there is a perception of sadness, happiness etc. which is followed by a bodily sensation: Tightness of the throat, chest (in sadness)…. Or lightness expansion (in happiness)…. So again perception/ awareness/seeing /knowing…. Just different terms

Sundew points to the thoughts? A human being has approximately 60-70 000 thoughts a day, are all of these thoughts Sundew? Or are some of them Sundew? And when there is no thoughts, where is Sundew then?

Again the same thing: thoughts arise, and go. They arise in beingness and are perceived – then they disappear and a moment of nothingness is perceived (sometimes). So perception is always present in beingness. Beingness however is not always perceived because it is obscured by thought or emotion or feeling.
Perception cannot be separated from the object… The moment I look at the screen and see it where does seeing end and the screen begin.
When lying on the couch, there is the bodily sensation but…where does the body end and the couch begin. The knowingness of lying down on the couch cannot be separated from the couch

So, you cant argue with yourself, right? There has to be 2 voices, 2 refrencepoints to argue.
So wich one of these are you? That there is 2 different voices you are aware of, can you look to see if there is any person, any solid entity that sees/that are aware of both of the voices/thoughts? Is there any person, any Sundew that is looking at the argumentation?

It looks like there is only perception at work, and "I" is a label (like you said I cannot smell the term flower)- but there is something missing… I think I have to keep working at it…. Perhaps I just understand it but not really see it…


See you tomorrow....

[Behzad]

OK so at the beginning of your mail, tears, fear, lots of emotion. Started answering and the last sentence really got me – have fun, find it interesting. I realized there was an enormous amount of pressure, self-judgment, anxiety, have to get there and get there first. Can’t do it….oh my God!!!! But it’s impossible to see in these conditions – almost as if the goal was not “seeing” but ME getting IT. So now I’ll start again

Nothing of this is in the way of seeing. You are already seeing all this happening the pressure, self-judgement, anxiety, have to get there, cant do it and so on. Nothing of these is in the way of seeing. But there is a belief, an assumption that all of these is happening to me. Can you look and see if this is true? Is there any real me, beside the thought of you?

In the samy way that you see everything else, see/look in the same way and verify/confirm for youre self if you find any I in youre experience?

Do you see any me, any I as clearly that you see everything else that you report of, like the pressure, anxiety and so on? Can you find any I that all of these is happening to?

Look and see in youre direct experience no matter what happens if there is anyone the experience is happening to?

This is not about changing the experience or having any special experience. No matter how this moment looks like, then thats it. Thats the perfect moment to see this, just look and confirm if there is any I present in the experience? If there is any I that everything is happening to?

The mind is a concept/term she learned about from others… No idea where this mind is - She would say there is a felt sense of beingness that is always present, unless it is obscured by thoughts or emotions

Really good Sundew, you are on the right track. Keep digging, keep looking and throw away all the old beliefs/storys that have tricked you, so you dont get tricked anymore in beliving that they are true.

Could it be that you are like the mind? A concept/term/idea/belief learned from others ? The way you looked for the mind, can you look for the I and tell me what you find?

She would say there is a felt sense of beingness that is always present, unless it is obscured by thoughts or emotions

Spend some time with this sense of beingness, explore it. Look at it as if it is a frieand you want to know. Is it changing or is it always the same? Is it personal, does it belong to Sundew?
Does it take any effort for the sense of beingness to be?
Do you need to do any practise, meditation, enquiry to be aware of it?
Can you do anything to reach it? If you read 10 or maybe 15 spiritual books, will that take you closer to the sense of beingness, the sense that you exist or maybe its better to say the sense that there is existence, aliveness, that you are awake, that you are present, that you are conscious? These are just different words/pointers that points to the same thing.

Explore these questions, look and let me know what you find. Look at every single one of them, explore them as if it is the first time and you want to see the answer to these questions.

It looks like there is only perception at work, and "I" is a label (like you said I cannot smell the term flower)- but there is something missing… I think I have to keep working at it…. Perhaps I just understand it but not really see it…

Keep going, you are doing a wouderful job Sundew. I leave you with something to experiment with:

So, while you keep on reading this sentence, is reading this sentence happening or are you doing the reading? Is the you and the reading seperate or is there just one flow, one thing happening ---> the reading?

[SunDew]

In the samy way that you see everything else, see/look in the same way and verify/confirm for youre self if you find any I in youre experience?

Yesterday and today have been very difficult, feeling as if I’d been clobbered on the head and could not think or have any mind activity that makes some sense. Last night after answering all the questions, the last one was too much…sort of like what I answer is all true but also untrue. Confused??? More than that: I don’t know where I am… a bit zombie-like, so I’ll try to make it through all the questions again and see if the answers are the same…

But there is a belief, an assumption that all of these is happening to me. Can you look and see if this is true? Is there any real me, beside the thought of you?

There is a perception of anxiety, pressure etc…. so obviously anxiety is happening, and pressure is happening… However I also see that anything and everything perceived goes through judgment. Is it good or bad?? (Good and bad is acquired knowledge). If it is bad it remains a glimpse…not allowed in. It seems contradictory but in a way it is as if “total perception” is denied leaving me in confusion (again bad – there must be clarity) and here something strange happens – confusion is seen (obviously)… but almost through a fog ( I don’t know if is confusion)
Yes there is a thought of “Me”…. But there is also the sensation of “Me”, or an aliveness that belongs to someone or is lived by someone - (I cannot feel your aliveness???? I assume that you feel it) so this generates confusion –and confusion is seen
This morning I received a Feldenkreis session and afterward was full of pain all over…Bringing attention to the various points was very interesting : the pain was simply perceived as sensation and the intensity just DROPPED, to the point that it was actually interesting ( the pain was not huge, but anyway it is something to ponder on) and there was no me…attention was on the sensations (not even pain – just sensations)

In the samy way that you see everything else, see/look in the same way and verify/confirm for youre self if you find any I in youre experience

Seems the same question, I answer No but not completely (the sense of self remains and with it the assumption/belief that it is the “I”)

Do you see any me, any I as clearly that you see everything else that you report of, like the pressure, anxiety and so on? Can you find any I that all of these is happening to?

No it is different, and gives rise to chaos

Look and see in youre direct experience no matter what happens if there is anyone the experience is happening to?

In direct experience, just the experience…afterwards it is taken on by the “I”- so why the headache and confusion – It is just a glimpse or (God knows what) – there is no confusion looking at the table, or the hand or whatever… but if anger, or anything arises it gets mixed up with the I- I am angry. Sorry all this is very contradictory

Spend some time with this sense of beingness, explore it. Look at it as if it is a frieand you want to know. Is it changing or is it always the same? Is it personal, does it belong to Sundew?

Beingness is always the same – perception is always the same – what changes is that which is perceived. This “object” gets a label, if the label is good it is allowed, if it is bad, there is resistance..and then emotion and feeling (also physical)

Does it take any effort for the sense of beingness to be?

Do you need to do any practise, meditation, enquiry to be aware of it?

No effort for it to be, but to see it attention is needed – otherwise there is identification with thought, feeling or emotion. Which leads to forgetfulness and momentary lostness.

Can you do anything to reach it? If you read 10 or maybe 15 spiritual books, will that take you closer to the sense of beingness, the sense that you exist or maybe its better to say the sense that there is existence, aliveness, that you are awake, that you are present, that you are conscious? These are just different words/pointers that points to the same thing.

No effort for it to be, but to see it attention is needed – otherwise there is identification with thought, feeling or emotion. Which leads to forgetfulness and momentary lostness/confusion

So, while you keep on reading this sentence, is reading this sentence happening or are you doing the reading? Is the you and the reading seperate or is there just one flow, one thing happening ---> the reading?

.

There is ambivalence here: on one side I’m reading – the other I ‘m not clear on.
While listening it is clear that hearing and the sound are one. Maybe in the other case seeing implies the object being there while in reading there is volition(?)…. Now there is confusion....

[Behzad]

There is a perception of anxiety, pressure etc…. so obviously anxiety is happening, and pressure is happening… However I also see that anything and everything perceived goes through judgment. Is it good or bad?? (Good and bad is acquired knowledge). If it is bad it remains a glimpse…not allowed in. It seems contradictory but in a way it is as if “total perception” is denied leaving me in confusion (again bad – there must be clarity) and here something strange happens – confusion is seen (obviously)… but almost through a fog ( I don’t know if is confusion)

This is not about seperate and dived the experience and let the good things into youre house (into the body) and assume that life should always be good and clear and not to allow the bad things into youre house (into the body) like confusion. This is about looking and realizing that there is no one in the house that prefers one experience over another. When there is clarity then there is clarity for no one and when there is confusion then there is confusion for no one. Both experiences are equal, something that comes and goes. But mind labels experiences in good and bad and thats fine to, there is no one at home to bother about it. This doesnt mean that thoughts about I want it this or that way will never arise anymore, they will but they dont belong to anyone anymore. They belong to life so let life take care of itself, its not youre problem.

So this is already the case, that while all youre daily activities goes on, every single one of them then there is just the activity that is happening, no one is doing them. So you are already free because there is no you at all in any shape or form to get free. The you that wants to get free and that feels it is in a prison called life does not exist. This is all about you seeing this and that can easily be verified true looking in youre real life and see while you are walking, are you doing the walking or is walking happening? Same thing goes with everything else, when you brush youre teeth, doing the dishes, going to the toilet, eating, sleeping and so on. This needs only some honesty and curiosity to see how things really are not what we have been taught to belive about how things are : )

So take some time today and see this for youreself. Its really that simple, no big deal. It is as if I would say to you have you seen that the statue everyone were talking about, they said it was deep in the forest but now I went and looked, its not there. The statue has never been there in the first place but everyone were saying that it was, strange yeah.

Now luckily enough you dont need to go to the forest to verify and see if there is no I here, just take some time today and see it in all youre daily activities today. Everything has functioned naturally and is functioning naturally right now without any need for any I.

Behzad wrote:
In the samy way that you see everything else, see/look in the same way and verify/confirm for youre self if you find any I in youre experience

Seems the same question, I answer No but not completely (the sense of self remains and with it the assumption/belief that it is the “I”)

You are seeing this sundew, it is that simple and ordinary. No flashing lights, no gurus is coming down from the sky to give you youre enlightenment medal, no eternal happiness will fall down on youre lap, no 24/7 experience of love for all human beings altough that might happen for someone but also that would be an experience coming and going and this is not an expeirnece. This is it, are you expectation something else then that wich is in front of you presently?

Its natural for the sense of self to reamin and it will reamin and you need a sense of self to function in the world otherwise how would you know who you are in the world, you wouldnt be functioning if you didnt had a sense of self, you couldnt sepereate youreself from all the other people, that would not work. But its okej for the illusion to exist as long as you know it is a illusion, right?

Its totally fine for the sense of self to remain but you know that its not true. I thoughts will still come and go, sense of being a seperate person still comes and goes but now you know that this things dont belong to anyone. You have already confirm that the I points to nothing and now you say that you dont find any I in direct experience, thats a full stop there. Nowhere to go anymore. No one left to keep seeking, no one left to have opinion about how life should or should not be. This doesnt mean that opinions, I thoughts and so on will not come anymore. Everything will come, all sorts of feeling will still arise but now its seen that they arise to no one. Nothing were yours in the first place.

See that everything exist now,the sense of self exist, thoughts exists, body exist, feelings exist, emotions exists, the computer exist, objects in the room exist but you do not exist and has never existed.

Let this sink in and keep seeing the obvious fact in daily life that there is and has never been any you in any shape and form and let me know how you are doing : )

Sending you a lot of love,
Behzad

[SunDew]

Hi,
this is a very short post because I'm truly exhausted.....BUT last night after having reported my utter confusion, headache, etc. and not knowing what next: suddenly my head sort of got empty, and saw that "I, me"...are concepts/terms - just plain pointers with no content - just like "flower, apple...whatever"

That all thoughts seem to lead back to an "I", and ownership. Plain/direct experience is left out. There is never any space for it (in fact I could not really understand the meaning of "direct").
And all knowledge seems to be "ABOUT" what someone else experienced (Borrowed knowledge).

The crumbling of the "I" was rather shocking - Something funny to add is that yesterday was my birthday (quite an esoteric coincidence !!!!)

I'll go over your other post to-morrow- I think I need a break, but thank you thank you thank you LOVE Sundew