I would like a guide please

[India]

Ok,so I've read other people's requests for guides and see that they have written more. The thing is, I have meditated, been mindful and read the books and 'get' the idea of 'no self' intellectually but have only had a fleeting moment of direct experience...very fleeting. Once when i was breast feeding my baby and i heard birds singing and then I asked myself where the birdsong was - that it wasn't out there with the bird, or in here in my ears...it was just sound. there are other times, but I'm not sure if I thought the experience of if there was direct experience...i get the thing that I am not my thoughts or feelings of body (in my head) but still get caught up in responding to them. I know it's all just a story, but end up still writing it.... I'm scared...but ready

[Rohit]

I will be working with you .I have some basic rules and expectations. YOU MUST BE ENGAGING ON DAILY BASIS .One important thing to ask is, that whatever teachings, beliefs or spiritual practices, you have acquired along your journey till now; Please put them aside until this conversation is over. All I can do here is give you questions and The work is yours to do. Please spend time with each question and answer from your own experience when ready. If answer is not coming, Be honest and write that. are you ready ? What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated? what do you expect from this conversation ? LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to? keep checking in .

[India]

are you ready ?

I must be because I’ve written loads and then the computer went down so I’m cross and now I’m back here. I’m determined. Its time. Lets get on with it. I’m scared. Scared of not being able to work, look after my kids, have relationships, earn money, have sex. i’m scared I’ll be an outsider but then I know that’s all bollocks because even now I could lose my job and my money and my loves – have no control over them. I’m scared of losing things and sick of being scared of losing things. Pissed off that I lost the other words I wrote and also angry and also its funny. No words

Am I ready – yes and scared


What expectations do you have from becoming Liberated?

I’d love to believe that I’d be full of love and peace and radiance and have read enough to know that’s not necessarily the case. I expect to be different – but how? I fear I will lose people, love, relationships are what matter to me. Expectations of connmection, love, . expectation of annhiliation, being destroyed of shattering. Fear of not being able to function in the world. And yet knowing I have guides in life as well as you to support me.

what do you expect from this conversation ?

I expect questions. I’d love reassurance that it will all be fine and dandy and know you won’t give it. I expect support, humour and human being there with me who is still a human being on the other side of the gate. To know that it is possible to do this and function and remain human.

LOOK at word "SELF". what does it point to? keep checking in .

Self is cross because it wrote all this really great stuff which is gone and time was wasted and the computer crashed and then laughing also at how I can think I’m in control. Go to bed Julie if you don’t like it – you don’t have to do this. But here is Julie typing. Am I thinking? Where is self – my thoughts are very much my safe place. I’m getting better at tuning into my emotions. More internal laughter from somewhere. Where do the thoughts come from? Where do the feelings come from? I don;’t know? Where did pissed off come from? I don’t know. Where is it in my body? In a tightened stomach. Who tightened it? Did Julie or did the thought? The thought did it. There was a pissed off thought and the stomach tightened. Nothing to do with Julie, she didn’t ask for the thought or the tightening. There’s another ‘oh aren’t I clever thinking all this’ thought. Who thought that? I did? Aren’t I clever! It says. The hands are typing. Are they my hands? They are attached to my wrists. Well, I can’t see that as I have a top on…the hands poke out of a green top.
Where is self. Here it wants to shout. Where? Its laughing..like a naughty child …no a playful child…hiding…

…like the kids did today…hiding…we found them. What would my sister say about me doing this? What would people say? About me? Where is me? In this room, at the desk, typing.

I decided to save this to word. What a clever i. I know it’s a story but I can’t feel that…I can’t experience it. But then that’s just a story too.

My hand is shaking. A guilt feeling – I should be doing something sensible like work. So why aren’t I? I’m here. Who is in charge around here? What is direct experience? I can’t seem to have direct experience. Or maybe this is the experience of being Julie – not being able to experience. That this is a Julie shaped bit of experience. That experience isn’t anything different. That it is just this. Is it? What is it?
Hand shaking.
Head dizzy.
If I’m not here who will look after the kids? I want my mum. Who will look after me? What about me? Who will love me? What if I lose love? What if I can’t love the kids? Fear. Tears. Hands shaking. Lump in the throat. This is irresponsible. What if I wish I’d never gone through and want to go back and can’t. like a childhood dream of being stuck in a bubble and no one being able to connect with me. I don’t want that. I want to connect. Heart pang. I want to connect with me and them.
Really dizzy now. I want to stop.
Hollow feeling in chest. I don’t want to lose them. There is no i. there never had been so how can I lose what I never had. But I must be real. How can I connect without being real. It doesn’t matter how – I just do. There is connection. If there has never been an I, and yet there is connection in my life and love then there is nothing to lose..nothing will be different.nothing can be different. Because it has always been that there is nothing.
I don’t know what I’m writing. Clock ticking. Feeling dizzy. Are you there. Yes you are – you typed so typing must be possible without an i. so there is typing now without an I – just thinking it – not experiencing it. Is thinking the experience?
Confused. Stop now Julie. Clock ticking. Waiting to see what next. Blow my nose.- hands moved tissue up to nose. Bored now – is this all crap?
Internal laughter – what at…I’m making it too hard – its simpler – I can’t see how. More laughter. Kind laughter. Inside.
Bed now. That’s enough. Feel dizzy. Why won’t my body leave? Waiting for something! Hah! The big bang. I look at photos of my family around the room and feel distant from them and want to cry. Moments frozen. Passed. Gone. Never to be again. I wish I could hold onto them. My dead mum. Where is she? Me next to her when I was younger. Where is the younger me? Gone? Younger children gone. Our dog – dead. I want to hold onto them. To me. To make time stand still. I don’t want to lose those moments and yet I miss so many moments by not being present. By thinking of work while with the kids, thinking of writing while I’m at work. I want to cry for all the lost moments. I don’t want to lose any more. I want to experience the moments fully, alive in each moment to really be with the people I love.
I feel dizzy, shaky. I feel like I’ll have to die to do this. I’m scared of losing them. Of leaving them. Of abandoning them – my sons. So why am I still doing this? I can’t not. I can.
Is it just ego – another achievement’?
Stop. That’s thinking.
Go to bed.
Go and check on the boys.
Who will check on the boys? I will. Who am i? Julie, their mum. A mum shaped experience. I always check them. Who will check them if I don’t? but you’re here as a human typing…so typing is possible without being there…so maybe parenting is possible without being there.
Enough now. Bed
Thank you.

[India]

Hey, I was on twice to day but logging off for the night now. catch you tomorrow.
am feeling angry today and thinking i shouldn't do this.
is there anyone who is through the gate who looks after young children? and works?

[India]

HI Rohit...are you still my guide?

[Rohit]

Hi Julie,
sorry for replying late, i was a little busy :)

I must be because I’ve written loads and then the computer went down so I’m cross and now I’m back here. I’m determined. Its time. Lets get on with it. I’m scared. Scared of not being able to work, look after my kids, have relationships, earn money, have sex. i’m scared I’ll be an outsider but then I know that’s all bollocks because even now I could lose my job and my money and my loves – have no control over them. I’m scared of losing things and sick of being scared of losing things. Pissed off that I lost the other words I wrote and also angry and also its funny. No words
Am I ready – yes and scared

Focus on fear.
What are those fears, what is resistance?
Notice, that it's protection mechanism. The fear itself is like a door, it holds you from looking behind the door. It's just fear. It’s ok for it to be there doing it’s job. Just let it be there, acknowledge its presence, check where it feels physically in the body.
What is fear itself?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?

I’d love to believe that I’d be full of love and peace and radiance and have read enough to know that’s not necessarily the case. I expect to be different – but how? I fear I will lose people, love, relationships are what matter to me. Expectations of connmection, love, . expectation of annhiliation, being destroyed of shattering. Fear of not being able to function in the world. And yet knowing I have guides in life as well as you to support me.

You won't lose anything. This isn't scary. You won't vanish and disappear. You'll just see the pattern that there was never anything to call I. And that recognition frees you, it ceases this worry of what'll happen to a non-existent you. It lets you be fully integrated with the world you're in, no-resistance, just perfect acceptance of what is, because there's nothing to be afraid of, not even fear itself.

Hey, I was on twice to day but logging off for the night now. catch you tomorrow.
am feeling angry today and thinking i shouldn't do this.
is there anyone who is through the gate who looks after young children? and works?

You think you are frustrated. You identify with that frustration, because that means you are trying your best and maybe that is all you want. Maybe you just want to be someone who tries his best. This feeling won't last, this definition won't last and eventually you will have to face up to the fact that you are not anyone.

You can let go of what you believe, and if it's true, you'll find it again on the other side.

Right now though, put on the lens that there is no you.

See the world from that perspective. Don't look at the lens, look through them.

See if it's accurate. See if it's true. See if it's real.

And then you test it. You throw everything you've got at it. See if it can be falsified in anyway.

Do that.

There isn't a you. There never was. Life wasn't given to you, the body was born, and then later on came you.

[India]

Thank you for replying

What are the fears/resistance? Thoughts of loss, abandonment, rejection, criticism,, ridicule, loss of love, loss of relationships, loss of my children, my home, my work. They are thoughts though. Those things are not in my life right now, not today, not now. They were part of my childhood, how dad felt about me, or how I felt he felt about me..or it might have been mum..i was too close to her to see. I felt rejected and abandoned and not good enough then. I fear losing my children as when I think I’m not a good enough mum, when I think I need to suffer more or be punished – I’m not sure what for…maybe childhood stuff again about getting the blame because I was the eldest one…I don’t know. So fear is remembered from the past or projected thought into the future. I can’t feel fear right now, not tonight when I’ve had good friends round so I feel loved and I feel connected, accepted and connected. Tonight I can’t feel fear. I know it’s job is to protect me and at the moment I don’t feel threatened…it think it’s important to me that you’re another human being, that you are hear and real and that you’ve not morphed into something strange! I feel reassured by your reply.


What needs to be protected is me, and I know at one level there is no me. How people perceive me ..which is just thoughts I know…probably even me imagining what they are thinking, without really knowing. Also protecting a perceived stability, I know this life and I fear that through the gate I won’t have a compass.my mother role needs protecting…can I do what my kids need of me when I’m though? But right now, this minute I don’t feel in need of protection.

'You won't lose anything. This isn't scary. You won't vanish and disappear. You'll just see the pattern that there was never anything to call I. And that recognition frees you, it ceases this worry of what'll happen to a non-existent you. It lets you be fully integrated with the world you're in, no-resistance, just perfect acceptance of what is, because there's nothing to be afraid of, not even fear itself.'

That sounds lovely….that’s what I want. I also think I’d be better for the kids if I was less worried, less fearful, more accepting.

'You think you are frustrated. You identify with that frustration, because that means you are trying your best and maybe that is all you want. Maybe you just want to be someone who tries his best'

Oooo well spotted…I do have a ‘try hard’ script. Hmmm so what do I do about that? When I’m writing there is no effort, the words just come through me…there is no me when I am writing…nor any trying. I’m not sure I know how to not try here. Maybe just accept that I’m trying….behind the trying is wanting to be loved, wanting to be accepted, wanting to get it right, to connect…craving for things..in the future. Right now I do feel loved, accepted, connected…right now I feel that.

.
See the world from that perspective. Don't look at the lens, look through them.

I am noticing moments in the day when I ask myself ‘who did the dishes?’ ‘who put up the washing’ because I wasn’t aware of deciding to do them…they just got done. But is that automatic pilot and being out of awareness or is that ‘no me’?

There isn't a you. There never was. Life wasn't given to you, the body was born, and then later on came you.

That makes intellectual sense…our conditioning, social messages, life scripts…the body and the then all the socialisation and learning from our own experience..making sense of the world…I get that in my head

Can I ask you questions?

What happens to morality…will I still know to do no harm through the gate? Will I still be trustworthy and loyal?
Will is still be able to go to work and do things even when I know no one is doing them?
Will I still be able to connect to friends and family?
Will I still be able to look after the kids?

But then, if there never was a ‘me’, and there isn’t a ‘me’ right now, today…then ‘not me’ seems to be doing ok ….

So are you saying I’ve lived life pretending that there is a separate me…but that there never was a me and not me has worked, given birth, brought up children, had friends, lovers, travelled, learned…and so nothing will change…is that what you’re saying?

[Rohit]

What are the fears/resistance? Thoughts of loss, abandonment, rejection, criticism,, ridicule, loss of love, loss of relationships, loss of my children, my home, my work. They are thoughts though. Those things are not in my life right now, not today, not now. They were part of my childhood, how dad felt about me, or how I felt he felt about me..or it might have been mum..i was too close to her to see. I felt rejected and abandoned and not good enough then. I fear losing my children as when I think I’m not a good enough mum, when I think I need to suffer more or be punished – I’m not sure what for…

You don't have thoughts of self. There ARE thoughts of self. Thoughts of self are only thoughts. They are not a self, are they? They can't be, you've already said that they are thoughts.

If there is a you having thoughts of self, then those thoughts aren't a self, they are just thoughts, aren't they?

Look at the 'I' that has these thoughts.... that is doing the looking. What is it? Where is it? What is it made of?

Take a look at what fear is. Again, not the content. What is it? Where does it exist?

Look at the fear. It's "thoughts about stuff". Thoughts are real. Look at them. The content of thought is not.

"There is fear" is a thought.
"i will lose my children....etc" is a thought.

What needs to be protected is me, and I know at one level there is no me. How people perceive me ..which is just thoughts I know…probably even me imagining what they are thinking, without really knowing. Also protecting a perceived stability, I know this life and I fear that through the gate I won’t have a compass.my mother role needs protecting…can I do what my kids need of me when I’m though? But right now, this minute I don’t feel in need of protection.

There is no "me, i , you ,self" to be protected. Everything is already functioning properly without a self. It was never more than an illusion in the first place. In this sense, nothing changes after awakening.

What happens to morality…will I still know to do no harm through the gate? Will I still be trustworthy and loyal?
Will is still be able to go to work and do things even when I know no one is doing them?
Will I still be able to connect to friends and family?
Will I still be able to look after the kids?

STOP IT. STOP THINKING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING TO CHANGE, AND START LOOKING AT WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON.

So are you saying I’ve lived life pretending that there is a separate me…but that there never was a me and not me has worked, given birth, brought up children, had friends, lovers, travelled, learned…and so nothing will change…is that what you’re saying?

There are thoughts ABOUT you what you THINK you are like who you THINK you are, but where is that self? It is not in thought. Thoughts are just thoughts. They are not selves. All you're thoughts are ABOUT a self they are not actually a self. There is no self, you simply imagine it exists. It doesn't and the thought that it does is obscuring you from seeing reality as it really is. Instead you are living for a self you assume exists, imagining how each interaction in the real world affects that self. Imagining how the real world affects something something that does not exist.

Take a deep look at the illusion. Ask yourself is it true? Look at the ins and outs all the different parts, look at what are false assumptions, what is just a thought and what is true in reality. Throw the idea on the fire and let truth be the flames. Look at how you imagine it, what causes you to imagine it. Not in a general sense. This is a deeply personal experience draw on your own life experiences in this examine instances in your own life question every assumption you built your sense of self on.

[India]

I've read what you've said and my head is so full of thinking that i can't stop it...it's what i do for a job. I'm going to take tomorrow to reflect on it and answer your questions. please be patient.
Thank you

[Rohit]

Look NOW. You are planning to do it. Another safety measure.

Look NOW. It really is that simple.

Do it now. No running around, no avoiding, just real, honest looking.

[India]

ok. so i'm here now. looking. where is the thinker that has this thought? who is looking at the screen? i'm looking at the screen. colours and shapes and language. i can't get beyond thinking. that is just a thought. a habitual thought. who thinks it? these are hands. these are keys. these are words. letters. breathing. blanket against skin. cold air. TV. room. a person in the room. lego. who is seeing it? seeing this? i can't stop the word. words words words . but these are just black shapes on white. who gives them meaning? i can't do this. i can't get beyond words. i don't know where to look. the white spaces? you said now. so ...i can feel i'm trying to find it///without knowing what i'm looking for. so stop trying . i don't know how.i keep looking. should i focus on my breathing.that's more trying. when i look at the words on this screen they are not me. they are black shapes. they are not me. so if these black shapes are not me and yet i think i'm thinking them..but they are not me. i'm thinking about me. where is me? there is the screen. this feels like bollocks. i don't know what i'm doing here. i don't know how to do this. now. just more words. blah blah blah

[India]

Who is the I who had those thoughts. i don't know. i can feel a body as it touches the sofa. i can see light entering eyes. sound in my ears. smell in my nose. sensation coming into my body. where is the i inside this body/....i don't know

[India]

So…thoughts are not me…they come from somewhere and go again.But it does feel like I can chose some thoughts…like these now…it feels like there is an ‘I’ chosing what to write. But where is that I physically? I can’t find the ‘I’ physically but just because there is no ‘I’ physically doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. When mum died….there was her bod, just her body which was still and the bit of her that made her ‘her’ wasn’t there. So I’ve always thought that the ‘mum’ who I knew to be ‘mum’ was not her body, that it was a casing for ‘her’. And that ‘her’ was how she related to me, how she made me feel. So her feelings, her thoughts her behaviours, which now live on in me.

[Rohit]

ok. so i'm here now. looking. where is the thinker that has this thought? who is looking at the screen? i'm looking at the screen. colours and shapes and language. i can't get beyond thinking. that is just a thought. a habitual thought. who thinks it? these are hands. these are keys. these are words. letters. breathing. blanket against skin. cold air. TV. room. a person in the room. lego. who is seeing it? seeing this? i can't stop the word. words words words . but these are just black shapes on white. who gives them meaning? i can't do this. i can't get beyond words. i don't know where to look. the white spaces? you said now. so ...i can feel i'm trying to find it///without knowing what i'm looking for. so stop trying . i don't know how.i keep looking. should i focus on my breathing.that's more trying. when i look at the words on this screen they are not me. they are black shapes. they are not me. so if these black shapes are not me and yet i think i'm thinking them..but they are not me. i'm thinking about me. where is me? there is the screen. this feels like bollocks. i don't know what i'm doing here. i don't know how to do this. now. just more words. blah blah blah

You aren't fighting hard to get this. You are falling into your role as a seeker.Your mind is going to flare worse and worse trying to save itself. Watch it. Understand what is happening, and just keep exploring no you anyway, the ego is now a wounded beast, it is going to fight to survive, thing is, it does not exist, you just think its fighting, let those thoughts arise just fore-focus on exploring the voyage between self and no self.

Who is the I who had those thoughts. i don't know. i can feel a body as it touches the sofa. i can see light entering eyes. sound in my ears. smell in my nose. sensation coming into my body. where is the i inside this body/....i don't know

Even as you read these words on this screen right now, there is no you involved at all. There is no you. Actually look, right now, as you read this. There is no you reading. There is reading, but there is no you involved in the process. There's just the process of reading, all of it taking place with no I. You can sit, but there's no you sitting. You can ponder these words, but there is no you pondering. Just pondering. You can meditate on your breath or the light on the screen, but there is no you - even right now, as you read - doing those things. Self is not. You're beginning to see this, and you're close. Real close. All it requires is a look. Describe to me what you're doing right now, in depth

So…thoughts are not me…they come from somewhere and go again.But it does feel like I can chose some thoughts…like these now…it feels like there is an ‘I’ chosing what to write. But where is that I physically? I can’t find the ‘I’ physically but just because there is no ‘I’ physically doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. When mum died….there was her bod, just her body which was still and the bit of her that made her ‘her’ wasn’t there. So I’ve always thought that the ‘mum’ who I knew to be ‘mum’ was not her body, that it was a casing for ‘her’. And that ‘her’ was how she related to me, how she made me feel. So her feelings, her thoughts her behaviours, which now live on in me.

If someone asks you, what colour is your carpet, you dont go well,I understand that its green. You dont go, well if its red then blah blah, and if its blue then blah blah blah, or go off on some mystical journey about "what is a carpet"

You just look at the carpet, and see its green.

Thats ok for physical objects, but what about things that cant be seen with the eyes?
How do scientists investigate things that cant be seen? For example, how would they investigate whether a certain colorless odourless gas is hydrogen gas? hydrogen has certain properties, so if this gas exhibits those properties, then it must be hydrogen.

So how would you investigate( look) whether the "I", the self is real? What properties, to you, does the "I" have, and how would you investigate whether these properties are true?
1 property that everyone seems to think the "I" has is that the "I" thinks the thoughts. How would you investigate this?

This is what looking means. It doesnt mean looking with your minds eye or any of that shit, it doesnt mean thinking about it, it doesnt mean meditating on it. it doesnt mean imagine what it would be like if there were no I, it doesnt mean working yourself up into a state of mental bliss or enlightenment.

it means investigate, in reality, see what is really happening, just like a scientist investigates the nature of reality

[India]

You aren't fighting hard to get this. You are falling into your role as a seeker.Your mind is going to flare worse and worse trying to save itself. Watch it. Understand what is happening, and just keep exploring no you anyway, the ego is now a wounded beast, it is going to fight to survive, thing is, it does not exist, you just think its fighting, let those thoughts arise just fore-focus on exploring the voyage between self and no self.

So do you mean just watch the thoughts and not worry about them?

Even as you read these words on this screen right now, there is no you involved at all. There is no you. Actually look, right now, as you read this. There is no you reading. There is reading, but there is no you involved in the process. There's just the process of reading, all of it taking place with no I. You can sit, but there's no you sitting. You can ponder these words, but there is no you pondering. Just pondering. You can meditate on your breath or the light on the screen, but there is no you - even right now, as you read - doing those things. Self is not. You're beginning to see this, and you're close. Real close. All it requires is a look. Describe to me what you're doing right now, in depth

so there is verbs but no subject? typing with no typist, sitting with no sitter, thinking with no thinker....it feels like a fun game...no responsibility required as its just happening and there is no I doing it so there's a sense of relief it it. and i felt a pang on 'you're close' fear...still there in my solar plexus...or just fear in the solar plexus. so looking at the screen with no looker. breathing with no one breathing. fear here. not too big...fear. and breathing and thinking that this is all a game...but you're saying thinking with no thinker so it doesn't matter what i think because there is no i so its just thinking...a habit...part of 'i' think i am a thinker so i need to think about this. but thinking just happening ...a sense of internal laughter..quiet...a giggle...quiet hearing rain, seeing the fire and there doesn't need to be an i do to it. and the thought that i'm not really getting it because i'm not merging, the room isn't pulsing but that's just a thought. not to be taken seriously.

stillness.partner snoozing on the sofa. i love him. that's just a thought...there is love he's another thing in the room, on the sofa with the blanket and the fire, part of the picture and my legs also part of it, and breathing. his breathing all on its own when he's asleep. my breathing all on its own when i'm awake