Clearly seeing through the illusion

[CommonTrap26]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there is not a separate self that is running the body and mind. There is not an actual self that can be found in the body, senses or thoughts. I believe this apparent self is the collection of memories, body automations and self-referential thought formations.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for LU to give a 3rd party guided pointing to allow the separate self to finally be seen through clearly. I have read the books, watched the Youtube videos and do the inquires but I have only seemed to establish a spiritually educated self. I am looking to cut through this illusion directly.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect the guided conversation to help move me through the inquiry process and catch the points that are still sticking or causing hangups. I expect to be questioned throughout the process to ensure that this is not simply an exercise to further establish the apparent belief in the separate self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began my seeking journey in earnest 3 years ago. I was having a stressful go of it at work and a young family at home. I could not find a way to relieve my anxiety and spent much of my time trying to be/think positive. I began doing breathwork and that seemed to help. At least the breathwork led to a few altered state experiences that felt like a great relief. At some point I came across an idea to monitor my thoughts. The first time I did this I was amazed at how many thoughts were based on the past or concerns about the future. I kept at the thought monitoring and one day I awoke to a feeling of benevolence/wellbeing. My thoughts had subsided greatly and I felt substantially lighter. Like a great weight had been removed from shoulders. I had the sense that no matter what happened everything was going to be fine. This lasted a couple of days but eventually went away. I had no idea what caused this light/free feeling. I began reading and watching all the content I could to figure out what had happened and what I could do to get back to it. The problem was that the more I learned or researched the heavier and more constricted I felt. This went on for a few years until recently. I have recently stopped the striving toward this imagined goal. I no longer anticipate life to be an easy weightless experience/state without stress or pain. The goal is not to return to the altered state, but simply to see through the separate self illusion.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi CommonTrap26
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are you in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hello Rali,

is that what you want me to call you?

You can call me Thomas.

What time zone are you in?

I am in the Eastern Standard Time zone.

[poppyseed]

Hi Thomas
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am in the Eastern Standard Time zone.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage :)

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hello Rali,

Understood. I am subscribed.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I will realize that there is no individual me that is experiencing this life. No me to wish differently than what actually is. No me to suffer or have a problem with how life unfolds through out the day or years.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I expect to be able to move through life with less resistance to what is. I anticipate an increase in energy as a result of less resistance.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I do not want to disconnect from life and become dejected.

4. What are you hoping for?

I am hoping for the end of hoping. I want to see every moment and day for the perfect movement of life that it is without the idea of it needing to be optimized.

5. What is missing?

It is not that something is missing. It is that something is added. Life feels spontaneous and fresh as it happens but then I can see the ownership thought take over after the action. This ownership can spiral quickly when not recognized immediately and cause suffering.

[poppyseed]

Hello Thomas

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I do not want to disconnect from life and become dejected.

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can an illusion become disconnected or dejected? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable? Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
Let’s examine this carefully. Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity” (emotions). But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hello Rali,

Thank you for the response.

It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I am completely fine with this being simple and ordinary. In my initial investigations I expected fireworks or altered state experience. I have since released these expectations.

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can an illusion become disconnected or dejected? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will

In previous seeking I encountered nihilism and general negativity. This was all fear based in the idea that I would not be able to operate as normal once the separate self was seen through. I no longer have this fear as I realized that the separate self has never been and I functioned just fine the whole time.

You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

Actually, when I realized Santa was not real it made me question many parts of the information that I had been given. If those who I trusted were willing to go to such great lengths to create this lie then what could be trusted. The end of the Santa illusion lead immediately to the end of all fantasy holiday characters such as the tooth fairy and Easter bunny. It was the eventual catalyst to begin questioning my upbringing and family religion. Ultimately it was what allowed me to be free of assumed truths of my community.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there?

When I look for the I it is not found. I cannot locate an I anywhere in the body.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

A slight amount of resistance/fear but mostly relief. I feel relief that life is not all up to me to perform.

Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find?

I did a full body scan to look for the I. I found sensations and pockets of tension but none of these is the I. The areas of tension released once they were focused on. Thoughts regarding how to focus would pop up as well as random thoughts regarding daily duties.

[poppyseed]

Hi Thomas
Thank you for your honest reply. It gives me an idea where to begin.

I am looking for LU to give a 3rd party guided pointing to allow the separate self to finally be seen through clearly. I have read the books, watched the Youtube videos and do the inquires but I have only seemed to establish a spiritually educated self. I am looking to cut through this illusion directly.

When I look for the I it is not found. I cannot locate an I anywhere in the body.

Shifting is different from not finding a self. Not finding something doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist. You simply couldn’t find it. In the shift, it is positively seen that there is no self and how "things" are actually.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises…
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory). There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hello Rali,

Thank you for the clarification. I understand the looking process you are describing with DE/AE. Knowing and seeing are very different. thank you for highlighting this difference. The socks example landed well. I can commit to using the actual seeing as we move forward rather than thinking of what is known.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Thank you for this exercise with the Apple. I have looked at the image of the Apple and explored what is known vs experienced directly. The Apple cannot be found in actual experience and is only a label associated with the image. I cannot see the whole Apple, nor taste it, nor smell it, feel it or hear the snap of biting it. I have the thoughts of these details but they are not actually experienced.

[poppyseed]

Hi Thomas,
Yes. Good.
Now let’s sharpen this a little more.

The Apple cannot be found in actual experience and is only a label associated with the image.

Look again at the image. For a few moments, forget what is not available — taste, smell, touch, the unseen side of the apple. Stay only with what is actually here.
What is present? Colour? Shape? Shading? (in DE all colour/seeing)
Perhaps thoughts saying “apple”?
Now look very carefully:
Does the colour itself say “apple”?
Does anything in the seeing announce that it is an apple?
Or does the word “apple” arrive only as thought?
And when the thought “apple” appears, is the content of that thought actually present — or is the thought itself simply another experience happening now?
“Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations/feeling, taste, smell, and colour/seeing, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?
Try this with something directly in front of you rather than an image on a screen. A real apple, a cup, shoe, hand, chair — anything ordinary. Look at it without relying on what is already known about it.
What is actually experienced before thought labels it?
Everything that thoughts labels as an object exists ie sound, smell, taste, colour, sensation and thoughts about an object …but can an object actually be found IN/AS sound, smell, taste, colour, sensation and thought?

Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hello Rali,

Look again at the image. For a few moments, forget what is not available — taste, smell, touch, the unseen side of the apple. Stay only with what is actually here.
What is present? Colour? Shape? Shading? (in DE all colour/seeing)
Perhaps thoughts saying “apple”?
Now look very carefully:
Does the colour itself say “apple”?
Does anything in the seeing announce that it is an apple?
Or does the word “apple” arrive only as thought?
And when the thought “apple” appears, is the content of that thought actually present — or is the thought itself simply another experience happening now?

present in the image is color: red tones with brown and yellow streaks at the top. There is an area of green shades at the top of the image. There is shading from the top down with individual spots showing a lighter shade. The thought Apple does pop up but the color/shading/shape pattern of the image does not itself necessitate Apple. The word Apple pops up when first looking at the image but under further scrutiny of the visible image the Apple thought does not continue to pop up. The thought Apple is happing as its own activity separate from the experience of seeing the image.

I am clear on object being a general label/thought that points to hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting and smelling.

I chose a brown felt hat for the object directly in front of me.

What is actually experienced before thought labels it?
Everything that thoughts labels as an object exists ie sound, smell, taste, colour, sensation and thoughts about an object …but can an object actually be found IN/AS sound, smell, taste, colour, sensation and thought?

When viewed the color, shape, shading and texture is seen/experienced immediately. The quiet labeling hat pops up quickly after the seeing experience of the item. No there is not an object that can be found in sound, smell, taste, color, sensation or the thoughts about it. There is not an object that can be found as sound. There is not an object that can be found as smell. There is not an object that can be found as taste. There is not an object that can be found as color. There is not an object that be found as sensation. There is not an object that can be found as thought.

I am not sure why i felt that those needed to be listed off individually but it was written as open process. Something is clicking here but I will not indulge in speculation.

[poppyseed]

Hi Thomas
Wonderful looking!

One small request before we continue… Could you please answer each question individually, using the forum’s quote function to quote the specific question you’re responding to?
It makes it much easier for me to see exactly what you’re reporting in response to each pointer, and it also helps keep the investigation close to direct experience rather than allowing several questions to merge into a longer story or explanation.
Short, simple answers are perfect. There’s no need to make them sound polished or complete. Just look at each question (which is a pointer to play with), check what is actually happening, and report what you find.
That will help us keep this very clear and precise.

present in the image is color: red tones with brown and yellow streaks at the top. There is an area of green shades at the top of the image. There is shading from the top down with individual spots showing a lighter shade. The thought Apple does pop up but the color/shading/shape pattern of the image does not itself necessitate Apple.

Yes!! Experience can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist? The same is happening with life. It is thought that divides experience into different abstractions and gives them objectivity via labels (colour, sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation), dimensions, meaning and purpose and then further overlays these with stories about them. When you look at the painting…all there is, is the paint. Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?



Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hello Rali,

Thank you. I will give individual answers for each pointer utilizing the forum quote function moving forward.

When you look at the painting…all there is, is the paint. Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

I can see this is the case.

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

1# - Drinking

Seeing the cup, simply = color (seeing)
Smelling the lemon juice, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the cold of the cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the drink, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the ice in the cup, simply= sound (hearing)
Thought of drinking, simply = thought (thinking)

2# - Walking Outside

Seeing the trail, trees and sky, simply = color (seeing)
Smelling cut grass, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of sunlight and the breeze, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the breeze in trees and animals/birds, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought that I should do this more often, simply = thought (thinking)

3# - Taking out the trash

Seeing the trash can, the bag and the pieces of trash in the bag, simply = color (seeing)
Smelling the trash, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the weight of the bag, simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the squeak of the plastic bag as it is tied, simply = sound (hearing)
Thoughts that this should have go out earlier, simply = thought (thinking)

4# - Video call for work

Seeing individuals on screen for call, seeing the computer and the wall behind it, simply = color (seeing)
Smelling candle burning in office, simply = smell (smelling)
Hearing the voices of people on call and sounds from outside window, simply = sound ( hearing)
Thoughts regarding the length and necessity of call, simply = thoughts (thinking)

5# - Eating a snack bar

Seeing the bar and wrapper, simply color (seeing)
Smelling the chocolate, simply = smelling (smell)
Hearing the wrapper and the crunch, simply sound (hearing)
Tasting the chocolate, simply = taste (tasting)
Thought of should I buy these again, simply = thought (thinking)

[poppyseed]

Hi Thomas

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

Seeing the trash can, the bag and the pieces of trash in the bag, simply = color (seeing)

How does it feel to see what actually is?

Now that you’re a pro at looking let’s start exploring…
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[CommonTrap26]

Hey Rali,

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It kind of feels like everything is out of focus. Depth and distance do not seem as exact. Have been doing this as often as possible through your the day.

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

No not anyone or anything recognizing the thoughts.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

Nothing separate from the thought or does the thinking

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No nothing was done to make particular thoughts or thoughts appear

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No nothing can be done to make a different thought appear

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No cannot select from range of thoughts. Cannot have only pleasant thoughts

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No cannot choose the thoughts

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No nothing seems to control the flow of thoughts

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

No, they seem to move through on their own

Where do thoughts appear from?

It appears that images slowly come into focus at first. Kind of seems like there is a seeing of abstract color or light and then that is labeled as something and is then formed into an image thought.

Where are they coming from and going to?

In and out of focus. Like once they have attention they start to break down again

Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

They appear randomly

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear.

Image of Child with toy
Image of Wind chimes
Image of paper air plane
thought of if that should have been labeled a paper air plane
thought that these thoughts are very spaced out from each other

Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
No cannot predict the order

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No cannot predict the order

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No way to prevent a thought from appearing

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No thoughts cannot be stopped in the middle

How long does that last?

The thoughts only last a few moments before they are gone

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

When observed directly the thoughts do not have logical order or sequence. It only appears that they are sequenced or follow each other when they are not looked at directly.

Are thoughts 100% true?

No thoughts are not 100%.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

The experience of the senses and thoughts