TrueSelf

[TrueSelf]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Lots of nuances in such a subtle and fundamental topic.
Basically means (for me) the self creates separatedness, so no self equals no division, living from a place of unity oneness and harmony with life and all there is

What are you looking for at LU?
I find it difficult going the path alone, both in understanding and even more so in actually living it since our societal conditioning is so firmly based in separatedness. So I'm looking to deepening and clarifying my understanding, discussing, sharing and growing together

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
A giuded conversation from someone further along than i am (in actual realising and living, not just in an intellectual way) is very different than reading a book or even attending a workshop or retreat. It's a opportunity to really learn, tailored to where i am not just something generic. I can ask all my questions doubts and confusions and have them clarified by someone who can make sure i understand it properly (not like just listening to a lecture)
Also, i find chatting with a like-minded friend on no-self topics immensely useful, even just sharing day-to-day wins and struggles. Also discussing new ideas, learning and gaining insights from eachothers experiences, nothing like it to be found in any other setting.
And who knows, maybe form some genuine friendships along the way 🙂

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I'm not a newbie (for better or for worse😅), been at it for many years now. Deep yearning for Truth led me to explore many different phylosophies and spiritual traditions and practices. Like energy work and other mystical practices, and lots of meditating and contemplating. a few years of various yogas (bakthi, karma etc) a long time with patanjeli's yoga sutras, and others. Eventually i mostly settled on advaita Vedanta type of teachings, the ancient texts (Upanishads, Gita, etc) and more recent ones like Ramana, nisaragata, krishnamurti, and others. Currently consuming Rupert Spira's teachings, practice is currently focused on the direct path (greg goode). I don't ascribe to any of those in a dogmatic way at all, all of them are pointers and i take them as such, whatever resonates and helps my dispell illusions and misconceptions and brings me closer to Truth

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
8

[ashton]

Hi Trueself. My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide.
I think we'll have a good and interesting time.
You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk if trueself is fine.

Anyways, the way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

When I ask you these questions, I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

To clarify, you CAN tell me "Ash, thought is/was coming up and it was saying xyz thing". But that is drastically different than forming your answer FROM thought. See how that example is different? That statement would have been formed through experience being seen directly and/or memory.

Anyways, what you said here hit me and this will be the first thing we examine:

Basically means (for me) the self creates separatedness, so no self equals no division, living from a place of unity

Look at your experience as it currently is. What is currently there? Thought? Looking at experience? Pain? Bodily tension? Unity? Bahaha. There's infinite possibilities. I require radical honesty. Tell me what is presently there as you are sitting before your screen reading this. I don't want you to spiritualize it. If something is in your experience/awareness or focal point, tell me what it is. If there is no focal point, tell me that too. If urge to lie is there, tell me that.

So is unity even there? Or is something else there in your experience in the here and now...

Ash

[TrueSelf]

Hi Ash 👋

Nice to meet you😊

yes you can call me TrueSelf or Jack, whatever you prefer.
Looking forward to doing this together wherever it will lead 😁

So to your question

Look at your experience as it currently is. What is currently there?

As a snapshot of my current actual experience, In this moment, there are a bunch of sense perceptions, sights sounds etc. I also see the basic labeling the mind does, like that's a phone/chair etc, it's not verbal like the "narrator voice" but definitely a thought overlay. All that is pretty constant for most of the time. On top of that is a lot of mental noise, "narrator voice", worries/expectations etc etc. those fluctuate, at times it's like a busy train station with thoughts flying all over in every direction 😅 at other times it's much calmer.

Sounds familiar?😉

[ashton]

Hi Jack, pleased to meet you
(As an aside because I'm curious, are you the Jack that I sometimes see in zoom meetings of Vince's? If not, don't worry! Haha)

Look at your experience as it currently is. What is currently there?

As a snapshot of my current actual experience, In this moment, there are a bunch of sense perceptions, sights sounds etc. I also see the basic labeling the mind does, like that's a phone/chair etc, it's not verbal like the "narrator voice" but definitely a thought overlay. All that is pretty constant for most of the time. On top of that is a lot of mental noise, "narrator voice", worries/expectations etc etc. those fluctuate, at times it's like a busy train station with thoughts flying all over in every direction 😅 at other times it's much calmer.

Let's unpack this together.
I asked you to look at your current experience as it currently is.

1. You looked at your current experience, so looking happened (you didn't notice this) - I only bring this up because you answered the question with a very good amount of detail.

2. sights and sounds got noticed

3. labelling of sights and sounds happened

4. worries and expectations came in

So now I ask... what is wrong? (Sort of rhetorical)

Is there a thought in the foreground or background insisting that there should be something more? Or something else? Or something different?

Experience got noticed exactly how it was. I don't see anything wrong. Maybe there might also be doubt that could have arised. Or expectation. Or anticipation.

Okay...? So what...?
Is that not allowed to happen? (Answer that - but don't tell me from thought, tell me from experience)

Oh wait... it happened...

Ash

[TrueSelf]

I'm curious, are you the Jack that I sometimes see in zoom meetings of Vince's?

No idea what Vince's zoom meetings are, so definitely a different Jack 😂

So now I ask... what is wrong? (Sort of rhetorical)

Is there a thought in the foreground or background insisting that there should be something more? Or something else? Or something different?

Very good observations and inquiry
So what is, as a snapshot, is never the problem, but then the mind comes up with all kinds of beliefs how things should be or shouldn't be, giving rise to all kinds of attractions and aversions, which in turn give rise to all kinds of suffering, worries doubt expectations disappointments etc etc

[ashton]

Hi Jack,

So what is, as a snapshot, is never the problem, but then the mind comes up with all kinds of beliefs how things should be or shouldn't be, giving rise to all kinds of attractions and aversions, which in turn give rise to all kinds of suffering, worries doubt expectations disappointments etc etc

Look. Observe. Now you have noticed a broadening of the chain. In the last post we discovered that 4 links of a chain got noticed in experience:

1. You looked at your current experience, so looking happened (you didn't notice this) - I only bring this up because you answered the question with a very good amount of detail.

2. sights and sounds got noticed

3. labelling of sights and sounds happened

4. worries and expectations came in

Remember that?

Now from what you are telling me that all of this happened after the fact:

b]but then the mind comes up with all kinds of beliefs[/b] how things should be or shouldn't be, giving rise to all kinds of attractions and aversions, which in turn give rise to all kinds of suffering, worries doubt expectations disappointments etc etc

So now the true chain for your experience as it happened was:
1. looking happened
2 sights and sounds got noticed
3. labeling of sights and sounds happened
4. worries and expectations came in
5. thoughts arose of "this should be different"
6. worries, doubt, expectations, and disappointment arose

Is that correct?

Tell me yes or no if that was what happened in your experience.

Good, you wrote down yes or no. Now reflect:

Did you say "Hey, experience! Bring me thoughts of "this should be different!"?

Did you say "Hey, experience! Bring me worries, doubt, expectations, and disappointment!"?

Or did they just happen? Look. Utilize your memory. Did that happen? And even if it did happen, did it give a single shit? Or did it just do it without ever asking for your consent or permission?

Look.
Reflect back.
Report your findings.

Ash.

[TrueSelf]

Hi Ash
Thanks for your replies, enjoying it so far 😊

So now the true chain for your experience as it happened was:
1. looking happened
2 sights and sounds got noticed
3. labeling of sights and sounds happened
4. worries and expectations came in
5. thoughts arose of "this should be different"
6. worries, doubt, expectations, and disappointment arose

Is that correct?

Nice and clear
Just not sure about the worries in nr 4, upon reflection there are no worries before nr 5 should/shouldn't. Expectations yes, but more neutral ones.

Did you say "Hey, experience! Bring me worries, doubt, expectations, and disappointment!"?

Or did they just happen?

All of that chain happened on its own, i had no say whatsoever in any of it 😂

The only time were it feels like I'm doing something is regarding choices and decisions, like for example deciding to look at something which triggered the whole chain. Also, maybe even more so, the choices and decisions of how to deal with the worry that has arisen, i can let it go on and make me miserable or i can decide to change it though a number of psychological/spiritual tools and techniques

[ashton]

Hi Jack,

So now the true chain for your experience as it happened was:
1. looking happened
2 sights and sounds got noticed
3. labeling of sights and sounds happened
4. worries and expectations came in
5. thoughts arose of "this should be different"
6. worries, doubt, expectations, and disappointment arose

Is that correct?

Nice and clear
Just not sure about the worries in nr 4, upon reflection there are no worries before nr 5 should/shouldn't. Expectations yes, but more neutral ones.

And now to add on to that with new fashion:

1. You read my 1-6 events I wrote down
2. Reflection arised
3. Realization occurred that the events might have taken place a little bit differently
4. You wrote down the realization

That's what arose, yeah?
Who did it?
Can you find an entity that controlled the entire situation? Or did they just happen?

Did something say "Hey, experience! Read events 1-6 that Ashton wrote down"?
Or did reading just happen?
Did something say "Hey, experience! Bring up reflection on Ashton's points!"
Or did reflection just occur?
Did something say "Hey, experience! Have a realization upon reflection that the events actually happened a little bit differently than what Ashton stated!"
Or did realization just occur?
Did something say "Hey, experience! Begin writing!"
Or did writing just happen on its own?

Look.
Observe.
Reflect.

You just started looking. Did that happen on its own?
You just started observing and reflecting.
Did that, too, is that, too, just happening on its own?

If you say, "But ASHTON! I'm choosing to do that"
How did the presentation of a set of choices arise?
Or did that too just happen on its own?

And the decision to go through with one of the options that choice presented you with...
Is that decision, did that decision just come to be on its own?

If there is now arising a thought of "But there is control" or "This is getting crazy!"

Is that, too, just occurring on its own...

Look. For real.
Observe.
Reflect.
Report me your findings.

The only time were it feels like I'm doing something is regarding choices and decisions, like for example deciding to look at something which triggered the whole chain. Also, maybe even more so, the choices and decisions of how to deal with the worry that has arisen, i can let it go on and make me miserable or i can decide to change it though a number of psychological/spiritual tools and techniques

I'm not even gonna bring this up, because I think it should be apparent by now...

Ash.