I'd like to speak to the manager

[Enzymatic]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand, intellectually, that there is no "me" in the cockpit steering the plane but it's only an intellectual understanding at the moment... I don't KNOW it. It makes sense that someone who DOES know it could help guide me to my own knowing of it.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am hoping to see what/who I really am. I'm hoping to be guided to look deeply at who I think am, where I'm mistaken, what the truth is. I'm looking for the truth about the nature of "me". I'm looking for help to see that.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to be challenged and pushed to really look at what I take myself to be, regardless of outcome. But, to be truthful, I would very much like the outcome to be that the illusion which my intuition tells me I'm engaged in is finally clear.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've meditated and pondered on and off for 30 years or so, but nothing intensive or deep or long-lasting. No retreats or deeply significant insights or experiences. Nine months ago I began doing more serious self-inquiry, meditating, pondering every morning for an hour or so.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[jefe2060]

Hey Enzymatic, I'm Jeff. Seems you've been waiting here for some time. Love the "11" and the "...Manager" bit !
You still rarin' to go? Please let me know and we can get started.

Cheers,

J

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for much for getting in touch :) Yes, I'm ready to go! You can call me "D"... that'll be easier than "Enzymatic". Looking forward to whatever happens.

[jefe2060]

Hiya D, good to here from you. Shucks, was kinda partial to Enzymatic! ;>) Anyway, you caught me at the end of my day, I'm in CET, normally 6 hrs later than EST, but we Spring Forward at the end of March. Anyway just wanted to say hi and I'll get back to you more substantively tomorrow.

Peace

J

[jefe2060]

Ding Dong! Liberation Calling!

;>)

Hiya D! Ready to rockNroll?

You wrote:

“...I understand intellectually that there is no ‘me’ in the cockpit steering the plane but it's only an intellectual understanding at the moment…”

Ok, great. PERFECT!

Let's start right there.

We are going to answer these questions:

How do you understand what an “intellectual understanding” is?
How does it happen?
What is it made of?

…in something of a circuitous way. Like, just keep them on the side for the moment.
Like, until they answer themselves...

...IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, NOT INTELLECTUALLY.

❤️

First, some housekeeping:

1. I am in the CETimezone, so, Paris, Amsterdam, etc. We are generally 6 hours later here than EST/EDT, but the US moved their clocks forward I guess last week, that doesn't happen here until the end of March. Having said all that, it would likely work best for me if you were to respond to my posts here by 2:00 am EST at the latest to ensure we have daily contact.


2. Please post here daily. If you need more time with something, at least post on your thread to let me know. For me regularity and continuity is essential for this process.

3. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

4. It may be helpful for you to set aside other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading, while engaged in this exploration in order to put all your effort and attention into seeing what there is to see here. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for our work together.

5. Please answer questions posed to you individually, and use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

6. Technology is not perfect: sometimes there is a glitch or a hiccup on the site which can wipe out your responses!
It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked of you into your local work environment, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done!

7. I would like you to answer all questions I pose that are written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

By the way, I'm sorta kinda colorblind when it comes to blue, green, purple red....hope my blue remains sort of consistent, and that you get it. If it's purple...oh well.


8. So that we both become aware of what your expectations are here, please answer the following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?



Now for some context.

Ummm, maybe more than…some.

;>)

The LU exploration is largely based on direct experience. These are the “gateways” that the “self” uses to gather the data that makes up what I will call here “objective” experience. We are trained and conditioned from birth (and perhaps also while in the womb?) to function in the world by identifying the (apparently separate) “stuff” of “reality” as objects. This is pretty helpful in terms of getting around without banging into too many trees, etc., ;>) , but in doing so we create a working relationship with everything - a conceptual model of reality - that necessarily objectifies “our-selves”. Right? So, “I am not that tree, I am this object over here that sees the tree, and I will also feel (maybe even smell and taste? OMG!) the dang thing if ‘I’ slam into it hard enough (with ‘my’ mouth open)”


;>)


This process is repeated over time again and again. We are told, “that’s yours, that’s hers/his”, “don’t go there, go here”, “that’s tasty, you really ought to try it”, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. We can easily see that even though we don’t remember this happening (and certainly not EVERY TIME IT HAPPENED!), that we have been VERY well trained to relate to life this way.


This kind of thing is usually referred to in non-dual circles as subject - object relations. Some version of this is likely necessary in our early childhood development, but the one we are mostly stuck with is based on certain ideas about the world that end up being like an operating system, or at least a piece of software. After long use, and long before we know it’s even a thing, well, we can’t tell it’s running anymore. It would be as if we were wearing glasses that made everything blurry, skewed, or even upside-down, and the glasses merged with our faces. Since everyone else (society) wears the same glasses, nobody notices anymore. Unfortunately, when we can’t “see” clearly, there are quite a lot of bumps in the road, in the night, and in our dreams. The whole world seems to be pretty bumpy too. Have you noticed?


The way out of this “Matrix” where everyone eats Soylent Green for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks (it’s my favorite Ben & Jerry’s flavor! What’s yours?) ;>) is to deconstruct the whole thing. It’s not particularly complicated, although the many procedures for doing so have been shrouded in mystery and bull$#!+ for most of human history.

These are the filters:

Seeing
Hearing
Smelling
Tasting
Touching
Thinking

In this model,"thinking" is a "sense", in that a thought is an "object" of the "sense" of thinking that is "held" in a manner that is analogous to the way we might hold a stone in our hand (ie, "held" by touching), or the way the aroma of a strawberry is "held" within the sense of smelling.

Therefore, all "objects" of experience are, although “sensed” by different senses, are grouped into a single category.

One way I like to describe what you are here to see (and what there is EVERYWHERE TO SEE) is that what you call your “self” is a mixture of one or more of these processes and the knowing of them. We are here to disentangle that ball of confusion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5P7x4v ... rt_radio=1

;>)

Are we having fun yet?

Example Exercise:

Colored Socks

It’s important that we distinguish between what is actually happening in our “direct experience” (of sensory data) and the way we normally go about processing the world.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference.

If I were to ask you what color socks you are wearing right now, you might:

Think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on. Referring to your memory, you would then probably be able to tell me what color you think they are.

Alternatively, you could just take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they are.

One way passes the information through the sense of thinking (our word based - conceptual - capacity of interpretation). There are all kinds of pitfalls in doing this kind of thing. For example, I don’t know about you but I pretty much have THE WORST short term memory ever. Some of us are also INCREDIBLY opinionated (well, mostly all of us are, we just don’t think so - “That’s not my opinion! It’s the way things ARE!!!”)

The other way, actually looking NOW is a lot more direct, right?

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" thing, it’s important to be clear about all these distinctions.

Other than the times we are specifically looking at the “objects” of thought/thinking, what’s swirling around in our minds is not what we are interested in.

We can’t get here from there! (technically, “through” there, but who’s counting?)

;>)

Wow, that’s a good one!
Have to remember that!
Wait, remember what?

;>)

Here’s that list again:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts (arising - not their content!)


To Do:
What you are going to do is to label your daily activities in terms of the “objects” of the (6) senses alongside their “normal” labels - the ones we are trained to know and experience the world through, and forget that they are just ideas, having no more substance than any other passing thought! The more we do this kind of thing, the clearer the “illusion” becomes.

When we see that Santa Clause is just a guy wearing a red suit (often with a pillow inside it!), not some mythological dude that somehow goes down every chimney, fire escape, or elevator shaft in the world to give kids presents (and gets it all done in one night with flying reindeer, no less!) and it’s our parents that do all the work while we are asleep, it’s hard to go back to that version of things.

Warning:

Do not watch this video if you are easily offended, and do not blame LU for my putting it here! It’s clearly in questionable taste! I’m going rogue here!

https://youtu.be/IJH3tf2VOMg?si=Ya7HO82-O3ipZWIB

;>)


Make your lists of labels like this:

Drinking a cup of coffee =
…Seeing (the cup in my hand)
…Smelling (the aroma of the coffee)
…Tasting (the taste of the coffee)
…Touching (the feel of the weight, size, and shape of the cup)
…Thinking (whatever thoughts arise while drinking the coffee)
…Hearing (the sound of my sipping the coffee)

Let me know if you are clear about this or if you have any questions.

Do as many lists as you can.

Love,

J

[Enzymatic]

Thank you for all this, J :) I will digest and respond tonight!

D

[Enzymatic]

Hi J,

Thanks for all the clear directions and questions and for diving into this with me. I thought I'd respond to the questions part now, then tomorrow AM or so I'll respond with my lists since I want to do more than just the one I've just done. Hopefully that's good with you... I don't want to steer us off the rails already ;)

How will life change?

I assume life will just keep doing what it's doing. I don't see life caring a whole lot about me personally either way. Not in a cold, indifferent, "alas cruel world" kind of way, but just that I guess I expect life to continue to unfold the way it has been. But, like people around here always say, "It's hard tellin' not knowin'"

How will you change?

I just have no clue, but I wonder if I'll somehow be more open, open to experience, perhaps feeling and appearing less stressed or anxious or concerned about where I stand in relation to others and life. I wonder if perhaps I'll feel and be somehow "lighter"... less weighed down by self-consciousness, freed from always calculating risks and rewards. I hope I'll somehow be a better friend. Perhaps I will be more in the flow of life, rather than feeling as I'm swimming against something. But I truly have zero idea.

What will be different?

I feel that EVERYTHING will be different, but then I wonder how that could be since I won't actually be a different organism moving through a different world. Thinking about this question has the same feel as if I were asked how it would be if I went to Indianapolis for Christmas next year. Since I've never been there, I have no idea... and all the reading and thinking about Indianapolis beforehand probably has very little to do with what Indianapolis would actually BE like when I got there.

What is missing?

I like this question a lot, even though I couldn't say what's missing exactly. Maybe a real connection with LIFE is what's missing. But since we're being honest here, it feels like there's some kind of understanding missing. Something I'm just not getting about how life ACTUALLY operates. I feel like I'm not GETTING something. It's like someone handed me one of those interlocking wood puzzles which has a solution and the solution is just right there, I feel like I can almost see it but not quite. So what's missing seems to be an answer to something, but I don't know the question and I don't know the answer.

It’s my favorite Ben & Jerry’s flavor! What's yours?

It's "Everything But The..." hands down. Unless there's some "Americone Dream" around... then there's going to be some indecision.


Lastly, the YouTube link was amazing.

Thanks J :)

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jay,
I'm wondering if you might be able to describe the labels, object thing a little bit more as it relates to the lists exercise. Your coffee example is super clear, and I can of course make some lists in a similar way but I wonder if I'll get more out of it if I have a better understanding in this case what's a label, what's an object, what's a sense. Thank you, D

[jefe2060]

Hiya D, thanks for your work, and honesty.
Glad you liked the video(s? -- both, or only one? "Bad Santa" is just....oyoyoi ;>)

Glad to explain further:


First of all, take any experience you have during the day.


Sitting in a chair.


Picking up a piece of paper.


Eating a banana.


Hearing a car backfire.


Watching a movie.


Writing a text message.


Washing the dishes.


Plumping a pillow in bed.


Taking a shower.


Putting on a shoe.


Petting the dog.


Smelling a dirty bathroom.


Licking a finger with jam on it.


Chopping an onion.


All of these are examples of the “normal” labels we use to describe daily activities. All of them are made up of "Direct" or "Actual" experience, in other words, sense data. The senses are the info "ports" we use to get information. We then add labels to the raw data so we can communicate. Something like making a menu. A waiter can very well bring all the dishes a restaurant serves to a table so the guest can actually see it all - except maybe at Dim Sum ;>) or with a dessert cart. I used to do that kind of thing - with Tapas as well, but a menu - a conceptual representation -- images of the food, text on the page - all "labels" of what might be ordered -- is a quick and easy shorthand. It would be kind of wonky if we had to go through our days communicating all the sense data in a scrambled (or organized) fashion to each other. This is why we have computer software like word processing systems. If we had to code every time we wanted to write the letter "Y" (upper case, no less!) it would take forever. So we use "labels". Yes?


Here’s that list again:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts (arising - not their content!)

To reiterate:

What you are going to do is to label your daily activities in terms of the “objects” of the (6) senses alongside their “normal” labels

Here’s the format.

Make your lists of labels like this:

Drinking a cup of coffee =
…Seeing (the cup in my hand)
…Smelling (the aroma of the coffee)
…Tasting (the taste of the coffee)
…Touching (the feel of the weight, size, and shape of the cup)
…Thinking (whatever thoughts arise while drinking the coffee)
…Hearing (the sound of my sipping the coffee)

In this example, “Drinking a cup of coffee” is the “normal” label for the experience.
“=” means that the label can be broken down into it’s “Direct” or “Actual” form – in other words, what the “labeled” experience is **actually** made of.

All experiences are “made of” sense data “gathered” by the senses. There are 6 of them. When you list an experience (one at a time please), break it down into it’s **actual** components.

Yes?

Please do a lot of these. You should do them until you are clear about what is **actually** the case (in terms of the senses) when an experience is happening. You don’t have to memorize this, you are not being asked to now become a “master” of these distinctions so that you can no longer just ask someone to hand you an object because you are so busy saying it “correctly”. ;>)

It’s just an exercise.

Let me know if you are clear about this or if you have any questions.

Love,

Jeff

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff. That's super clear. Thank you for that... and for all the time youre taking to work with me on this I'm on it!

P. S. The Temptations video was ALSO awesome. Never have seen that psychedelic video before nor ever even heard the song!

[jefe2060]

Great!

And

If you liked that, you'll love this!

https://youtu.be/B9YrYoY0N4I?si=jfYz8bXOoyX4pnZP

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

Another great video for a song I've never heard!

What you are going to do is to label your daily activities in terms of the “objects” of the (6) senses alongside their “normal” labels

Here's a batch. I've been trying to do it more than I'm actually able to write it down, but I'm writing them down when I can.

TYPING ON MY LAPTOP =
SEEING The letters on the screen. The auto-complete popup keeps popping up. The white background of the text editor.
SMELLING The faintly damp air mixed with the very slightly burnt odor from the room heater
TASTING The coffee taste in my mouth
TOUCHING The laptop keyboard with my fingertips. The arms of the chair pressing against my elbows. The fabric of the hoodie I'm wearing pressing against my neck
THINKING All the thoughts coming up. non-stop.
HEARING The sound of the room heater. The ringing in my right ear. Some vehicle sounds outside The fingers tapping on the keyboard. The spacebar sound when I hit it with my thumb

CUTTING AND EATING A KIWI =
SEEING The brown skin of the kiwi. The green kiwi juice on the cutting board
SMELLING The muskiness of the kiwi skin
TASTING The tart kiwi. The hard inner part near the "stem" end. The small slippery seeds
TOUCHING The furry skin
THINKING All the thoughts that come up
HEARING The knife hit the cutting board after it gets through the kiwi. The water running in the sink as I wash the knife

SITTING IN THE LIVING ROOM =
SEEING The ceiling light turned on. The couch. The maroon rug.
SMELLING Something sweet
TASTING Neutral or earthy taste
TOUCHING The chair cushion. Feet in my shoes
THINKING Thoughts coming up, not dwelling on content
HEARING A low hum

LAYING IN BED =
SEEING The black TV screen against white wall
SMELLING Flower-like scent of soap
TASTING Mint flavor of toothpaste
TOUCHING Indenting head on pillow
THINKING Thoughts arising
HEARING Whooshing of wind outside

EATING BREAKFAST =
SEEING The dark of the blueberries against the lighter color of the oats and milk. The spoon halfway submerged. Milk residue on the inside of the cup
SMELLING The vanilla odor
TASTING The vanilla flavor. Just a little bit of sweetness.
TOUCHING The ribbed glass. Chunkiness of the sunflower seeds and hemp hearts in my mouth
THINKING Thoughts coming and going
HEARING The spoon clinking against the glass. The teeth against the sunflower seeds and blueberries making a soft sound

TAKING A SHOWER =
SEEING The steam in the air, the water droplets on the faucet
SMELLING The rosy scent of the soap
TASTING Occasionally the soapy taste on my lips
TOUCHING The slipperiness of the soap. Feet pressed against the wet tub bottom
THINKING Random thoughts popping up
HEARING The water hitting my head. The water falling in sheets onto the tub bottom

DRIVING THE CAR =
SEEING Flickering lights through the trees on the inside of my sunglasses. Dust on the dashboard.
SMELLING Faint smell of gas
TASTING Neutral... nothing noticeable there
TOUCHING The rubbery steering wheel. Pressure of foot against gas pedal
THINKING Things popping up
HEARING Steady, deep thrum of wheels on road. Heater fans blowing

EATING SUNFLOWER SEEDS =
SEEING The computer screen in front of me
SMELLING Dry smell of winter
TASTING Saltiness of seeds. Earthiness of the seeds
TOUCHING On teeth where where seeds are stuck between teeth. Feeling the seeds in my palm before I pop them in my mouth
THINKING Thoughts bubbling up
HEARING The light crunch of the seeds

WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS =
SEEING The bright colors. The psychedelic shapes. The phone surrounding the small YouTube screen. The background of my room surrounding the phone
SMELLING Neutral
TASTING Neutral
TOUCHING The smooth contours of my phone.
THINKING The usual background voice in my head
HEARING The falsetto of one of the singers. The bass notes of another singer. The horns. The tinniness of the music through my phone

This last one was interesting because I noticed how completely the visual and the sound drew me in so that it seemed like there was little to no tasting, smelling, touching being recognized. Almost like those other senses didn't exist for the short period of the video. Of course they did, but it was much much harder to pay attention to them because the sound and visual senses seemed to sort of co-opt the entire experience.

D

[jefe2060]

Ok good work!

In your list, you've definitely broken down the main experience labels into the various sense elements.

But there's lots of little label-bunny-babies still hopping around.

They are soooooooo cute!!!!

Let's corral them.

Here’s what you wrote:

““TYPING ON MY LAPTOP =
SEEING The letters on the screen. The auto-complete popup keeps popping up. The white background of the text editor.
SMELLING The faintly damp air mixed with the very slightly burnt odor from the room heater
TASTING The coffee taste in my mouth””

When SEEING is happening, all kinds of things can float into and out of the visual field without changing the fact that SEEING is taking place, right? Same is true for all the other sense categories too, right?

In the beginning, we all get a little blendy with our senses, and interested in the blendy experience itself, too, especially where everyone’s favorite sacred cow (thinking) is concerned. Hard to keep that sucker out of everything!

Please notice the preference for thinking, if you can, if you do, don't, or don't know what I'm talking about ;>)

Does it feel necessary? Special? Is there any pride (or pride in reverse) involved in it? I mean, it's "me" thinking, after all, isn't it? And I'm...ME!!!! ;>)

Example: A famous, very well loved person goes into a coma. The whole world is incredibly concerned. For the person, there's not a whole lot of thinking going on. Is that person any less loved by all those who loved them before? When (if?) they come out of it, are they any less or more special? Of course, everyone's enjoyment of all the cool ways that person does whatever they do that they are famous for expands, like all the fans of Stranger Things got more involved when the final season foinally came back after the writer's strike ended, but that's just a detail. The inherent appreciation for the person is always what it was, thought or no thought, coma or no.

Everyone is a bit different. There’s a learning theory someone told me about once where Kinesthetic, Auditory, Visual, and Cognitive dimensions are arranged in different orders of preference; so, like some people aee highly visual learners, but others can’t stand that and they want to be told how to do thing, but god forbid you touch them! We’re all socialized and organized a bit differently, so this is a bit like noticing that we are left or right handed, and learning to be aware of that (if not ambidextrous).

Anyways, you wouldn’t be the first person to be enamored of the notion that thought is more important than your other senses (if that’s the case). Sure, sticks and stones may break my bones, but don’t you @#$%^&* try and tell me to think differently!

All the meaning - and all the relevance, substance, reality, and existence we assign to our “selves” - lives in the subject object relationships we construct through meaning, and then practice, reify, and reproduce in our cute little bunny menageries.

If you were a video camera on standby sitting uptop of a tripod, waiting for the actors or specific action to take place in order to start recording, your viewfinder would kind of be like doing a very blank stare at everything but not “remembering” (recording), or “attaching” (getting particularly involved with, or labeling, because, like, who cares? You're on standby. Nothing happening here folks! Keep moving!) to anything.

Seeing. Just seeing.

Not interpreting, labeling, interacting particularly.

Just.

Seeing.

One of the most beloved of the Buddhas’ teachings is known as the “Bahiya Sutta”. Good old Sid(dhartha) made this guy wait forever before telling him the deal. Then he gave it to him straight:

“...Bāhiya you should train yourself thus: when you see something there will be only what is seen…when you hear something there will be only what is heard
…when you smell something there will be only what is smelled …when you taste something there will be only what is tasted…when you touch something there will be only what is touched… when you think something there will be only what is thought… Bāhiya in this way you should train yourself.

Bāhiya, as a result you will not cling to [these things]. When, Bāhiya you do not cling to anything at all, then, Bāhiya there is no “you” there. When, Bāhiya, there is no “you” there, you are neither in this world nor in the other world nor in between the two worlds. Just this is the end of suffering.”


So.

Copy paste your list here (probably better off of the board wherever you compose; Google Docs or Word or whatever), and get ready to do some VERY SLOW editing ;>)

This is about quality, not quantity.

Instead of this:

“TYPING ON MY LAPTOP =
SEEING The letters on the screen. The auto-complete popup keeps popping up. The white background of the text editor.
SMELLING The faintly damp air mixed with the very slightly burnt odor from the room heater
TASTING The coffee taste in my mouth”

…break down each element of the sense data that you have grouped together, rephrasing each sense category and the content within them with the opposite emphasis, prioritizing the sense category in this manner:


“TYPING ON MY LAPTOP =

The letters on the screen = SEEING

The auto-complete popup keeps popping up = SEEING

The white background of the text editor = SEEING

The faintly damp air mixed with the very slightly burnt odor from the room heater = SMELLING

The coffee taste in my mouth = TASTING

The laptop keyboard with my fingertips = TOUCHING

The arms of the chair pressing against my elbows = TOUCHING

The fabric of the hoodie I'm wearing pressing against my neck = TOUCHING

All the thoughts coming up. Non-stop = THINKING

The sound of the room heater = HEARING

The ringing in my right ear = HEARING

Some vehicle sounds outside = HEARING

The fingers tapping on the keyboard = HEARING

The spacebar sound when I hit it with my thumb = HEARING


When you do this, linger each time the data “dissolves” or generalizes into the various sense categories.

Let your attention rest completely within each occasion of your senses functioning.

Appreciate the fact – the miracle – the unlikelihood that these amazing things (not the tapping on the keys - or whatever - although all those things are quite amazing too), of all the events that are occurring right this very instant in the infinite universe, are manifesting within the SENSING that is happening in the exact ways in which they are being experienced by you - just you - at this moment, and that even though practically everyone else alive has some version of what you are doing going on too, only your experience is quite like the one you are having!

It’s a #$%^& miracle, so take your time.

When you are done, describe as best you can what it was like.

Love,

Jeff

[Enzymatic]

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for all that. Your analogies (like the video camera on stand-by) are really helpful… along with everything else. The "Bahiya Sutta" really got me.

When you are done, describe as best you can what it was like.

There were a few distinct things that happened each time I typed out a line in the way you described:

1) There was a sense of ease and simplicity. As if an overcomplication was evaporating into just the SEEING, TOUCHING, HEARING, etc. That description is more grandiose than what actually happened. But there was a subtle sense of moving from an idea to experiencing an essence. Four sentences (now five) just to describe a sense of ease or relaxation in moving from "complicated" to "simple".

2) There was crying-laughter. That's been happening over the past year or so and I'm just sort of done thinking about it… it just seems to happen sometimes during these kinds of moments. This time, in the spirit of what we're doing, I tried to just feel the tears on the face, hear the sniffling or laughter, see the body shaking.

3) You mentioned that we're not here to focus on the content of thoughts, but this felt like a funny / interesting thought: the thinking mind sort of seem to "say", comically, seemingly almost out loud a few times: "But what am I supposed to do if you don't need me?".

4) I found myself going back and kept trying to "rework" the part before the equal sign because it kept feeling separate / distinct from the part after equal sign, and that didn't seem right. Even though we switched around the emphasis, it started to feel like it really should be this for everything:

SEEING = SEEING
SMELLING = SMELLING
TASTING = TASTING
etc.

I mean, "the brown skin of the kiwi" is a description of a THING, but the THING doesn't seem to be important to the experience of SEEING. I mean… the THING just happens to be where the focus of attention is at the moment… but the SEEING is always and forever SEEING. Whoa. Is that true?

5) The THINKING line stood out to me every time, as it feels qualitatively different than the other "ways" of experiencing. It was like a "one of these things is not like the other" moment every time.

6) Related to #4 above, I actually stopped tweaking the lists after doing 4 of them because I realized (or rather, you pointed out with the funny thing about label-bunny-babies) that nearly all my descriptions had labels in them. "Musky" means nothing without words to describe it. "Tart" is just a label, a shorthand for a certain kind of taste which is meant to be universal rather than a reflection of a certain moment of TASTING. And what the heck is a "rubbery" steering wheel? Isn't the TOUCHING of a steering wheel just the experience of actually touching it and isn't "rubbery" just a word someone created so we could all have the same language to talk about steering wheels and calamari?

Jeff, I worry that I'm enjoying the "thinking part" of this endeavor too much... and when I write a long post full of thinking and reflection I have that worry even more. Any advice for finding that balance?

Thank you again for working with me on this crazy endeavor.

D

[jefe2060]

3/15

“Thank you for all that. Your analogies (like the video camera on stand-by) are really helpful… along with everything else. The "Bahiya Sutta" really got me.

You're very welcome. Yes, it's a good one, huh?

There were a few distinct things that happened each time I typed out a line in the way you described:

1) There was a sense of ease and simplicity. As if an overcomplication was evaporating into just the SEEING, TOUCHING, HEARING, etc. That description is more grandiose than what actually happened. But there was a subtle sense of moving from an idea to experiencing an essence. Four sentences (now five) just to describe a sense of ease or relaxation in moving from "complicated" to "simple".

Nice!

2) There was crying-laughter. That's been happening over the past year or so and I'm just sort of done thinking about it… it just seems to happen sometimes during these kinds of moments. This time, in the spirit of what we're doing, I tried to just feel the tears on the face, hear the sniffling or laughter, see the body shaking.

The bodymind always does whatever it does. Enjoy.

3) You mentioned that we're not here to focus on the content of thoughts, but this felt like a funny / interesting thought: the thinking mind sort of seem to "say", comically, seemingly almost out loud a few times: "But what am I supposed to do if you don't need me?".

Yep. Sure. "It" thinks "it" exists. You are undermining that.

4) I found myself going back and kept trying to "rework" the part before the equal sign because it kept feeling separate / distinct from the part after equal sign, and that didn't seem right. Even though we switched around the emphasis, it started to feel like it really should be this for everything:

SEEING = SEEING
SMELLING = SMELLING
TASTING = TASTING
etc.

I mean, "the brown skin of the kiwi" is a description of a THING, but the THING doesn't seem to be important to the experience of SEEING. I mean… the THING just happens to be where the focus of attention is at the moment… but the SEEING is always and forever SEEING. Whoa. Is that true?

Video cam on standby! 😀 "Forever" in that all there is is now.

5) The THINKING line stood out to me every time, as it feels qualitatively different than the other "ways" of experiencing. It was like a "one of these things is not like the other" moment every time.

Yes.

But, for whom is it “different”?

Who is that one?

Where is it?

What is it made of?

If it exists, go ahead and find it, and tell me all about it.


I (dare) / invite / welcome you.

Please address those questions DIRECTLY.
LOOK.

6) Related to #4 above, I actually stopped tweaking the lists after doing 4 of them because I realized (or rather, you pointed out with the funny thing about label-bunny-babies) that nearly all my descriptions had labels in them. "Musky" means nothing without words to describe it. "Tart" is just a label, a shorthand for a certain kind of taste which is meant to be universal rather than a reflection of a certain moment of TASTING. And what the heck is a "rubbery" steering wheel? Isn't the TOUCHING of a steering wheel just the experience of actually touching it and isn't "rubbery" just a word someone created so we could all have the same language to talk about steering wheels and calamari?

Brilliant. Yup. Precisely.


Jeff, I worry that I'm enjoying the "thinking part" of this endeavor too much... and when I write a long post full of thinking and reflection I have that worry even more. Any advice for finding that balance?


There is no balance to find.

LOOK for the one who is seeking the answer to that question.

Where /what is it?

Who is it that is “worried”?


Where is that one?


What, precisely, does she/he/it consist of?


Please answer those questions PRECISELY.

Thank you again for working with me on this crazy endeavor.

Crazy?

I don't think so.

Everything else but this is crazy.

Just because it's in the majority doesn't make it sane.

Look around.

The only way humans justify the genocide, ecocide, and suicide – not to mention the plethora of neurosis' we call “the way it is”, “normal” (we don't actually “call” it that, we're way too asleep, numb, and complacent to notice) is because we think it's inevitable, that none of us is personally responsible for any of it, that there's a “me” in here and everything else is happening “out there”...

THAT'S crazy.

I mean, WTF!?!?!?!!

WAKE THE F**K UP!!!!!!!!!!!!


(I'm not telling at you ❤️, I just get loud when I step up on my soapbox 🤣)



Go ahead and answer those questions if you haven't already.

❤️J