liberation

[sensey]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I - it is just a concept. A set of ideas and programs. which seems to be real. but if I try to find it I can't.

What are you looking for at LU? I want to find the Truth. Be free from illusions. And the greatest illusion is "I". I like to be free and act freely. And I want to discover unconditional permanent love within myself. I want to realise more deep that "I" is not existing . This "I" is tricky. And I want to be free from all my masks. Be real. Just be myself without interpretations. without ideas who am I. And whom I should me. I want to live in present. And discover that "power of now" .

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I expect help in finding and discovering my illusions. and destroying them. and find the Truth beyond that . I hope it will help me to see how I is pretending to be real. And how I can go beyond that.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I practiced daily meditation and yoga since 2010. And I was monk for 10 years. Lived in monastery for 2,5 years. searching for the Truth. serving people. meditate daily 2-3 hours. and during day also continue practice of repeating mantra, self enquiry 'Who am I?'.
I had some experiences. One time my mind become calm for 3 days. Stoped talking. Only peace, silence, happiness. and many others experiences of unconditional love. Feeling of God. Rising kundalini. some times feeling is so strong that I can't move. but after that my I appears again. And I feel limited.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

Thank you for your patience in waiting for a guide. I’m happy to be present with you in this inquiry.

What shall I call you? Sensey?

In gratitude,
Becca

[sensey]

Hello Becca.
Nice to hear from you.
Yes You can call me.
You can find me in telegram
@PeacefulSadhu

[sensey]

Hello Becca.
Nice to hear from you.
You can call me Ilya or sensey.

[sensey]

Becca. Sorry.
I was sleepy when i read yor message and I misunderstood your question. And I thought you want to call me. That is why I gave my ID telegram.
So you can call me sensey or ILYA.
Thanks for your readiness to guide me im my inguiring

[graceabounds]

Hi Ilya,

You laid out a few expectations for this process in the initial questions. Truth is on offer here at LU. Presence. Freedom. Those come along with Truth.

But this:

And I want to discover unconditional permanent love within myself.

Let's start here.

Is love present now?
Where does it arise/how is it known?
Is there ownership of it? Look right there for the owner of 'love'... the possessor...

Is anything 'permanent'? Wouldn't that be counter to being present?
Describe what you find when the chase for something everlasting is inspected in real time...

-Becca

[sensey]

HI Becca
Yes. Love is presenting now.
It is feeling in my body. Chest. I just feel it. It is just there if I look on it.
It has no owner. It is just there by itself.

I see love is permanent but if I don't pay attention to that feeling it may seems not permanent. Being presetn also permanent if I pay attantion to it. When I see it it is permanent. even if I don't see and after that i see it again I understand that it was always there. And it didn't go anywhere.
I found it is always there. and there is no need to chase it. It is just here.

[graceabounds]

You discovered something important:
There is no owner of the feeling.

Good. Now go further. :)
Is there an owner of attention?
When attention moves away from the chest does someone move it? Or does attention simply shift?

And when you say you “understand that it was always there”…
Is permanence being experienced?
Or is there a thought saying “this has always been here”?

Right now, in this moment, can “always” be experienced?
Or only this immediate sensation?

[sensey]

There is also no owner of attention.
And I can't see who moves this attention. Thought comes and attention moves by itself. But also thoughts arise that it can move just by itself. Something is noticing that attention was shifted. And it can it shift back to the object of concentration. Like in meditation.
So it looks that it simply shifts. But then I can shift it wherever I want. But then it is again simply shifts. But at the same time I can't find this "I" who can control attention.

[sensey]

And when you say you “understand that it was always there”…
Is permanence being experienced?
Or is there a thought saying “this has always been here”?

“this has always been here” It is looks like just a thought.
And at the same time permanence can be experienced. For example permanent changing, permanent shifting of attention.

"Right now, in this moment, can “always” be experienced?
Or only this immediate sensation?"

Only this immediate sensation. But I can see here "always" too. Always this immediate sensation at the moment.

[graceabounds]

Hello Ilya,

So it looks that it simply shifts. But then I can shift it wherever I want. But then it is again simply shifts. But at the same time I can't find this "I" who can control attention

Who is the I who can shift it at will but cannot be found? Is there an entity here managing experience? Or is experience simply unfolding, including the thought “I can move attention”?

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

And at the same time permanence can be experienced. For example permanent changing, permanent shifting of attention.

This replaces the old belief (“I am a self”)
with a new one (“There is permanent love” / “There is permanent presence”). Both are ideas.

Stay raw.

Right now is there anything other than immediate appearing and disappearing?

Can you experience “permanent”? Or only this current shift… and now this one… and now this one? Is permanent change experienced or inferred?

Also here is how to use the quote function on this forum:

https://youtu.be/QCbZYSvnTpc?si=9Jch47blr15RDj_L

-Becca

[sensey]

Who is the I who can shift it at will but cannot be found? Is there an entity here managing experience? Or is experience simply unfolding, including the thought “I can move attention”?

experience simply unfolding. I can't find any entity behind it.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?

The movement controls by thoughts. But also it can be automatic. When I turn my palm many times I didn,t think about it and thought about something else palm was still turning. it starts from thought but then was automatic.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I can't find any location of a 'controller'

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Thought arised and decision came. I don't who made decision. So there is thought and there is decision made by thought to follow previous thought or not. I see like this.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Thought choose. I noticed that there was not conscious decision which hand I will use for exercise.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I can't find. And I confused who decide turn palm or not. and when to turn. and the same with other decisions.

Right now is there anything other than immediate appearing and disappearing?

no. only immediate appearing and dissapearing.

Can you experience “permanent”? Or only this current shift… and now this one… and now this one? Is permanent change experienced or inferred?

no. i can't experience "permanent". I see that there is only current shift. Only one moment. And permanent change inferred. not experiensed

[graceabounds]

Right now, hold your hand out again. Turn it slowly.

This time, watch before the movement. Does a thought appear first every time?
Or does the movement sometimes begin and a thought comments after?

Thought arised and decision came. I don't who made decision.

And I confused who decide turn palm or not. and when to turn. and the same with other decisions.

Good. Don’t fill that gap. When a “decision” appears what is it actually?
Can you find a decision separate from thought?
Can you find a decider separate from sensation and thought?

Search in raw experience, not logic.
Is there a “thought making a decision”?

Or is there one thought then another thought then movement
...And afterward a story saying, “I decided”?

[sensey]

Right now, hold your hand out again. Turn it slowly.

This time, watch before the movement. Does a thought appear first every time?
Or does the movement sometimes begin and a thought comments after?

Thought doesn’t appear first every time before the movement. Sometimes appear and sometimes just comment after the movement.

Good. Don’t fill that gap. When a “decision” appears what is it actually?
Can you find a decision separate from thought?
Can you find a decider separate from sensation and thought?

I can’t find decision separate from thought. And I can’t find decider separate from sensation and thought.

Is there a “thought making a decision”?

Or is there one thought then another thought then movement
...And afterward a story saying, “I decided”?

Yes. There is one thought then another thought then movement… and afterward a story saying “I decided”

[graceabounds]

And I can’t find decider separate from sensation and thought.

Great. What is the sensation of ‘decider’? Where is it? What are its qualities?