Let's gooooo

[megacoolname]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
By this I understand that there is no real, separate "me", but only a sensation of being someone, sustained by various things such as memory, thoughts etc...
I also understand that there is no others, and therefore, that it's kinda all one.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking for liberation ;) To understand the real nature of the "me", to not be fooled by an illusion anymore, to unleash "my" liberation :D
The reason I want this is to cut the root of suffering. I see this as being the most important thing in life, all else is a loop: everything comes and go again and again, there is never a real satisfaction is this world.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be shown that there is indeed no me, with no doubt left. I've a book from liberation unleashed with guided conversations and I've read a few threads here, so I expect something similar.
My final expectation is of course... liberation.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've started my "quest" almost 10 years ago, by googling "how to remove suffering of the world" or something similar. The most practical results were about meditation, that I practiced, but never assiduously (I'm ashamed). I've read various buddhist (zen) and advaita texts. I remember one day reading in the shobogenzo that I should "do nothing", without trying, because trying is ego-centered and is doing something. I did so while walking on the beach and everything merged and it was obvious that I never existed. Then a doubt arised and I was back as a human again. This lasted about 3 seconds.
I had a few non-dual experience on DMT and it happened that I remember who I really am by taking 5-meo-dmt, but it never lasts.
Nowaday I like to listen to some extracts from the ashtavakra gita, and try to stay mindful.
Sometime I feel like I'm just orbiting around the subject rather than practicing seriously :(

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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[graceabounds]

Hello,

Thanks so much for your patience in waiting for a guide. I’m happy to be here with you in this inquiry if you are still interested.

Here are a few questions to begin:

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
3. What do you want not to happen?
4. What are you hoping for?
5. What is missing?

In gratitude,
Becca

[megacoolname]

Hi Becca, thank you for being here :)

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?
What I think will be different is: no sense of separation between the body and what is external to it, and a sense of peace

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
Serenity

3. What do you want not to happen?
Suffering, I guess

4. What are you hoping for?
Peace :)

5. What is missing?
Again, peace :p

[graceabounds]

Thank you for being here.

What should I call you?

These expectations are understandable, and I’ll ask that they be set to one side for now. We will come back around to them later but during the process of this investigation it is not useful to tether to them or anyone else’s teachings or experiences as a barometer for ‘progress.’

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.


So lets dive in, using some of what is written as a launching pad:

no sense of separation between the body and what is external to it, and a sense of peace

Right now, is there separation between the body and “outside” in direct sensory experience?

Is there any line that divides “me” from “not me”? Look. Not think, look.

What do you want not to happen?

Suffering, I guess

What is suffering made of, now?

Find the bodily contraction.
Where is it located? What’s actually there?

-Becca

[megacoolname]

you can call me mega

Right now, is there separation between the body and “outside” in direct sensory experience?

yes, my sense organs distort what's coming into them, with a bit of a blurry vision and tinnitus
and I can't see behind my head :P

Is there any line that divides “me” from “not me”? Look. Not think, look.

I feel like thinking make an arbitrary distinction.
with no thinking then it's only a vague feeling of separation, with no actual logic behind it.

What is suffering made of, now?

Generally it is a more or less constant lack of satisfaction in life.
And right now it is suffering due to a cold and being frustrated to be late at work.

Find the bodily contraction.
Where is it located? What’s actually there?

often I realized that my toes are curling
it feels vaguely like an attempt to escape the unsatisfaction
when I consciously uncurl them it feels like getting rid of a subtle mind fog

[graceabounds]

ok mega,

Good, there are some things to peel back here.

yes, my sense organs distort what's coming into them, with a bit of a blurry vision and tinnitus

how is it known that what is experienced is distorted?

This is actually not direct experience. It is a thought ABOUT experience… a borrowed story from science or memory. Kind of tricky here because the subject is vision and hearing but can you see the layer of interpretation?

Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what the weather is like outside. You can think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the forecast on TV, call your mother and ask her- or you can simply open the curtains and have a look.

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a bit. Observe how the mind is dividing and labeling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time…
Then, stop watching the objects as labeled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

So now:

with no thinking then it's only a vague feeling of separation

explore this vague feeling.

Where is it felt?
What is the shape, texture, location, energy of this separation-feeling?

often I realized that my toes are curling
it feels vaguely like an attempt to escape the unsatisfaction

Ok. Excellent.
So next time this is noticed, stay with the curling… go all the way into it without the conscious release valve. Let the tension build. What happens?

-becca

[megacoolname]

how is it known that what is experienced is distorted?

It is true that it's an idea in my mind that an object is mean to not be blurry. At the same time, other people can see it clearly.

This is actually not direct experience. It is a thought ABOUT experience… a borrowed story from science or memory. Kind of tricky here because the subject is vision and hearing but can you see the layer of interpretation?

I think I see the layer of interpretation. But it ignores the fact that other people hear/see the same thing in a different way, no?

with no thinking then it's only a vague feeling of separation

explore this vague feeling.

Where is it felt?
What is the shape, texture, location, energy of this separation-feeling?

It is felt in the chest
I'd say it is kinda warm, soft, in a moving ball-ish shape.
It also feels like a lingering concept from the mind?

stay with the curling… go all the way into it without the conscious release valve. Let the tension build. What happens?

If I stay with the curling and focus mentally on it, I feel like there is nothing behind it, no real reason for it to be. I don't even know why it appears, it's quite common tho. The subtle anxiety that comes with it stays, but it kinda loses its grip on me (only for the few seconds that my mind can keep focused on it)

[graceabounds]

Just to save us some time, let’s make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the inquiries and exercises here:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

At the same time, other people can see it clearly.

But it ignores the fact that other people hear/see the same thing in a different way, no?

Where are these “other people”?
Are they here, in your direct experience?
Or are they just a thought, arising now?

What is here, without any reference to others, memory, or explanation?


So, if the toes curling doesn’t have anything behind it, does this feeling in the chest? Is there a ‘me’ to be found in either location except as a thought attached to the sensation after the fact?

[megacoolname]

Where are these “other people”?

It's true that when I said "other people can see it clearly", it refers to an idea in my mind, not my direct experience

Are they here, in your direct experience?

No, they can appear in my visual field tho, then that's direct experience of them (or at least, direct experience of their physique)

Or are they just a thought, arising now?

Yeah it was just an idea

What is here, without any reference to others, memory, or explanation?

there is what there is, inputs from the sense organs and mental things (thoughts etc...), there's also a sense a separation

So, if the toes curling doesn’t have anything behind it, does this feeling in the chest?

There's nothing behind it too

Is there a ‘me’ to be found in either location except as a thought attached to the sensation after the fact?

no

[graceabounds]

Great!

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

:)

[megacoolname]

I did your exercise yesterday and this morning
it makes life feel easier but I often lose the focus
it also has the tendency to create a "witness" that label things
and I feel like it soften the separation sensation

[graceabounds]

Hi Mega,

Do a little of that exercise each day. It is so simple but helps to practice looking for what is actually here.

Let’s look more precisely at this experience of labeling:

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise, otherwise google for a picture of one.

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual, or direct, experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in direct experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?


There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’ , what is the actual experience?
Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

-Becca

[megacoolname]

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

It's true that in this way, "apple" is a concept. I can have the experience of the concept of an apple.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

they describe a concept

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

there is the concept of apple in thought, the experience of the concept.
I can tame my mind and not have though for a minute when I stare at an apple, yet in a subtle way my brain is still labeling the apple as an apple, but without thoughts.

However, is an apple actually known?

not really, but the concept of an apple is known

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’ , what is the actual experience?

the actual experience can't be put in words, there is what is and that's it

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

the red is "experienced", although even "experiencing" is a concept

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

It's really just a label yeah

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Redness stays as redness, obviously :)

[graceabounds]

Very good. Onward!

I can tame my mind and not have though for a minute when I stare at an apple, yet in a subtle way my brain is still labeling the apple as an apple, but without thoughts.

Right now hold or look at a picture of the apple. Stare again. But drop the label.

Forget “apple.” Forget “fruit.” Forget “object.” Forget even “thing.”

Now tell me: What is ACTUALLY here?

Describe it without concepts.
Not “red” or “smooth” or “round.”
These are still conceptual overlays.

Go underneath.
What is here in pure sensory terms?

Color… great but what kind? Describe it like you’ve never seen it before.
Texture (if it is in your hand)… but without using the word smooth. What actually is the texture?
Edges…but where exactly do they begin and end? Are they solid?

Is there really a shape? or just shifting gradients of shade and light?

Is there an object? or just a field of visual data?

Can it be known what the back side of the apple looks like?

Take a breath.

Where is the “apple-ness”? Can it be found? Or is it only ever an invisible overlay?


And now… who is it that sees this as apple?

Can that “who” be located? Or is that just another flavor of the same overlay, this time called “me”?

[megacoolname]

Let me answer you tomorrow, I fear I don't find the right words today to answer you and I'd like to re-read another time your post, I was also pretty busy today.