I'm ready for liberation. Who's willing to walk me home?

[Nene]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I'm aware that there's a presence, an infinite ocean of openness behind, before, throughout and after and kind of mind activity. It feels like mind is floating and operating without ground support in this presence. I know you would probably say, that's true, that is your essential self. I know that that is true but I always fall back into the mind

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance to let me clearly experience my true self. Guidance that let me surrender to that openness. Exhausting all excuses of the mind to stay in mind activity. Open the blinds. Seeing permanently through the veil. I've had a long journey of this exploration. Many years spend in the yoga tradition, ashrams. Many teachers and guids along the way, from Ramana Maharshi to Mooji to Eckhart Tolle, and many others. As many people do I think I have a pretty good intellectual understanding about it but not experiential so much. Glimpses. Those glimpses seem to become more present but they remain glimpses. Maybe because I start to analyse the glimpses, looking to have them again because I want it so bad. And yet it is already here. See I understand that. I would love for somebody to "push me over the edgeless edge." Please help. All my love. Rene

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope it triggers something inside me to surrender, to open permanently. When I listen to Ilona and her podcasts, it often happens while she's talking. It's in that moment so obvious what I am. But as soon as the conversation ends I fall back in mind. It is my hope that someone can help me with this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
It only helps to a certain extend. It lets you understand that you are not the mind but it doesn't let me experience it. At best glimpses.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[davjak]

Hello Rene,
My name is David, and I would be happy to be your guide, if you like. If so, we can jump right in... so on that note:

I'm aware that there's a presence, an infinite ocean of openness behind, before, throughout and after and kind of mind activity. It feels like mind is floating and operating without ground support in this presence. I know you would probably say, that's true, that is your essential self. I know that that is true but I always fall back into the mind

What if I'm not going to say that is your true nature, and that it sounds like mental imagery to me, I wonder how this feels? You say you know it's true but you always fall back into the mind. What is the thing that leaves the mind and then falls back into it?

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance to let me clearly experience my true self. Guidance that let me surrender to that openness.

How do you know you have a "true self"? What wants to surrender?

I hope it triggers something inside me to surrender, to open permanently. When I listen to Ilona and her podcasts, it often happens while she's talking. It's in that moment so obvious what I am.

Where is inside me? Is there an inside and an outside? What is the shape or form of you? And what is it that is closed that needs to permanently open? Does something really open and close? You say "It's in that moment so obvious what I am." What is found in that moment?

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please have a look:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

[Nene]

Thank you David for your reply.
I'm grateful for your time to be my guide.

The last couple of days, after I read your post, I felt a lot of resistance to reply. I noticed making excuses constantly. Everything else was more important it seems like. It's interesting to notice that what I deeply long for is being fought. It's a little bit hard to explain. It feels like a tug of war inside of me. Part of me feels like I'm going to lose a lot. I hear myself thinking; I have so many things I would like to do. Perhaps when I go through with this I won't be able to do what I love so much. It's a feeling of losing something. There's fear too. And there's the relationship with my wife. How's that going to change? All these thought came flooding out after your reply. Is this normal?
Much love,
Rene

[davjak]

Perhaps when I go through with this I won't be able to do what I love so much. It's a feeling of losing something. There's fear too. And there's the relationship with my wife. How's that going to change? All these thought came flooding out after your reply. Is this normal?

Ah, OK Rene, I get what you are saying. It did occur to me that the delayed response may have been due to those questions landing in that way. But from your opening description, I got the impression that you are a seeker who has been around the block a time or two.

It may be however, that we can take this little wave of initial fear and apprehension as an indication you are now in a position for this to not be just another fruitless spiritual exercise.

But what we are talking about can be as simple as being fooled by a magic trick, and then coming to see it was just a sleight of hand, redirect of attention and some mistaken beliefs about what seemed to happen. It was an illusion, and then it was no longer an illusion, simple as that.

That's what we're here for. It need not be scary or threatening at all. I will just ask questions, and you respond with whatever comes. There are no mistakes in this, only the perfection of what happens, however it seems to be, whatever is right in front of us, step by step by step. How does this sound?

If you do feel ready, here are a few questions to get us going: When you say, "It's interesting to notice that what I deeply long for is being fought.", can you tell me what it is you deeply long for? What might there be that is missing and not here/now? And what do you feel is at stake in this; what can the loss of an illusion cost you? And one last one, is there anything outside what is presently happening?

On the question of what is normal, there is no normal or abnormal, just what is showing up, however it seems. That's all there ever is, one foot in front of the other. The rest is all imagination and stories about what is showing up.

[Nene]

That's what we're here for. It need not be scary or threatening at all. I will just ask questions, and you respond with whatever comes. There are no mistakes in this, only the perfection of what happens, however it seems to be, whatever is right in front of us, step by step by step. How does this sound?

Thank you for this. This opened something in me.

Answers to your questions:
What I long for is to be free of the concepts of mind. To see through them, to not create my identity from them. But now that I'm writing this I notice that when I'm writing there's no I that is writing, there's just writing. An awareness of writing. Or is that the mind telling me this. Or was there a brief moment of just presence while writing and then the mind kicked in and asked; Or is that the mind telling me this.

What might there be that is missing and not here/now?
I don't know the answer to this. I don't no what to say to this. That question surprises me.

what can the loss of an illusion cost you? Very good question.
But the illusion seems so real. How can I move trough life or be with life knowing this/ experiencing this?

is there anything outside what is presently happening?
The answer is no. But that answer is coming from my mind to be honest.
I'm going to sit/be with this question for a while. I feel like there's a lot in that question.

[davjak]

What I long for is to be free of the concepts of mind. To see through them, to not create my identity from them. But now that I'm writing this I notice that when I'm writing there's no I that is writing, there's just writing. An awareness of writing. Or is that the mind telling me this. Or was there a brief moment of just presence while writing and then the mind kicked in and asked; Or is that the mind telling me this.

What's the difference between just writing happening and a sense of me doing it? When I seems to be present, what are the properties or qualities of I? Can you describe how I is manifesting? What does I look and feel feel like? Does it have a clear boundary or outline? Is there a size and shape to this I? How about weight or texture? Where is I located? Let's try to find out more about I.

What I long for is to be free of the concepts of mind.

This sensation of 'longing', what are its properties or qualities? What does it look and feel like? Does it have a size or shape, a clear boundary or outline? Where is it located?

Consider these two apparent things, the sense of I and the sensation of longing. What is the difference? Are they two different things?

Also, please use the quote function. It helps to keep to a standard format. There is a link to a video on it in my first post.

[Nene]

Hi David,

Could you share the link to the video again please. The link doesn't work, it looks like its not a complete link.

It looks like I is manifesting as everything I'm aware of. When I look into I, I can't seem to find a tangible I. I seems to manifest as my thoughts. But I can't find my thoughts either. I does not have a boundary. If I look closely to my own thoughts, it feels like it keeps up a narrative, it's like I'm talking to a ghost. it seems it feeds itself. It doesn't like or isn't comfortable with the silence between thoughts. But the interesting thing is that silence must be me too. So why the compulsion to keep thinking and identifying with that. My mind is confused about how to identify with the stillness, or how to rest in and as that. although it must be already. I guess what I'm trying to figure out, and maybe that is the problem, is how to rest / identify/ connect as this. How do I do this? What needs to happen? Is it a letting go? Is it a shift in Identity? Is it allowing? What is it?

Longing feels like an energetic quality more so than a thought 'quality'. I can't find the origin of the longing either. I't like a wave on an ocean. It's there for a while and then leaves. It has no shape. It's similar to a thought in away but longing seems to stay or linger longer and is felt in the body whereas thoughts feel heady. Feel like it originate in my head.

Wishing you a Happy Thanksgiving ( If you celebrate this)
Thank you for your guidance so far.

[davjak]

Hello Rene, and Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

it's like I'm talking to a ghost.

Is I the talker? Is there any control over thoughts? Can you turn them off or think only pleasant thoughts? Is what shows up next known in advance?

But I can't find my thoughts either.

If you can't find them, can you be the producer of them? If you can't even attribute a location to them, how could you be controlling them? Is there any control whatsoever over the content? How could an unfindable, unlocatable I produce or control something that is equally unfindable? Is it even remotely possible?

My mind is confused about how to identify with the stillness, or how to rest in and as that.

Someone is trying to figure out how to identify as stillness? Isn't that just conceptual thinking? It's imagining, while nothing like that is actually going on, is it? Why would anyone want to identify as stillness? Is someone really tying to do this, or is it happening nowhere but imagination, based on something taken onboard as spiritual concepts?

Can you name something in this apparent universe that is still?

How do I do this? What needs to happen? Is it a letting go? Is it a shift in Identity? Is it allowing? What is it?

What if it's nothing? And what if nothing needs to happen, and there is only what is already apparently happening? Would effort be necessary? What if there is nothing to figure out and effort just gets in the way?

How do I do this?

Do what?

Is it a shift in Identity? Is it allowing? What is it?

What is anything?

Feel like it originate in my head.

Stand before a large, well-lit mirror. Notice thoughts. Are they originating in my head? Where is my head? Where are thoughts appearing? Where am I looking at the them from? Are they in front of me, outside me, inside me? Do they move? In what direction do they go, up, down, left, right? Are they bigger or smaller than me? What are they made of?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

[Nene]

your comments hit home. The more I release and let go it the more it becomes clear nothing needs to be done to experience my true self. The mirror exercise helped clarify things too.
There is no ‘place’ or location as such for thoughts.
Long walks help too. Being in nature. Away from my desk, tv and household distractions. Eventually it makes no difference where you are or what one is doing but for now the walks in nature create an openness.
Is it common for this to unfold gradually? I feel this is the case.

[davjak]

Hello Rene,

The more I release and let go it the more it becomes clear nothing needs to be done to experience my true self.

When you refer to this 'experience of my true self', who is the one who says it's 'my' true self? Isn't that making two things, the true self and the one who calls it mine or who can experience it? This has to be conceptual, does it not?

Is this what we are doing here, seeking to have an experience of a self that's true? I asked this before, is a true self a spiritual concept?
Are you clear on what is a concept in thought and what is seen, heard felt, tasted and smelled? Can you see, hear, feel, taste or smell a true self?

There is no ‘place’ or location as such for thoughts.

Does anything control them?

Is it common for this to unfold gradually? I feel this is the case.

Yes, it seems to be common.

Please answer each question and use the quote function. Copy and paste a question into a reply, highlight it and click 'Quote'. No pressure, but it helps keep things clear and orderly. Have you watched the video?

[Nene]

When you refer to this 'experience of my true self', who is the one who says it's 'my' true self? Isn't that making two things, the true self and the one who calls it mine or who can experience it? This has to be conceptual, does it not?

I don't know, I can't find that one. Yes it is making it into two things. it is making it conceptual. It's strange because the conceptual seems to be nonconceptual at the same time.

Is this what we are doing here, seeking to have an experience of a self that's true? I asked this before, is a true self a spiritual concept?

No it is not. It just is. Experiences come and go in it, as it.

Are you clear on what is a concept in thought and what is seen, heard felt, tasted and smelled? Can you see, hear, feel, taste or smell a true self?

This is exactly where I struggle.
I can't see, hear, feel, taste or smell a true self. I'm not sure what to do about this. Or maybe do nothing , maybe there's nothing to do.

Does anything control them?

No. but they seem to appear not randomly, thoughts are structured. there's a pattern to them, one follows the next in the same context.
At times I feel like I'm just answering questions. I want to go deeper but not sure how.

Yes I watched the video.

[Nene]

When you refer to this 'experience of my true self', who is the one who says it's 'my' true self? Isn't that making two things, the true self and the one who calls it mine or who can experience it? This has to be conceptual, does it not?

I don't know, I can't find that one. Yes it is making it into two things. it is making it conceptual. It's strange because the conceptual seems to be nonconceptual at the same time.

Is this what we are doing here, seeking to have an experience of a self that's true? I asked this before, is a true self a spiritual concept?

No it is not. It just is. Experiences come and go in it, as it.

Are you clear on what is a concept in thought and what is seen, heard felt, tasted and smelled? Can you see, hear, feel, taste or smell a true self?

This is exactly where I struggle.
I can't see, hear, feel, taste or smell a true self. I'm not sure what to do about this. Or maybe do nothing , maybe there's nothing to do.

Does anything control them?

No. but they seem to appear not randomly, thoughts are structured. there's a pattern to them, one follows the next in the same context.
At times I feel like I'm just answering questions. I want to go deeper but not sure how.

Yes I watched the video.

[davjak]

Hey there Rene. I didn't get a notification that you had responded, so I am just seeing this. I'll have a look and respond asap. David

[Nene]

Hi David, no worries. No rush. I had the same thing happening.
And tomorrow I’m out all day and this weekend I’m moving my mother in law to assisted living. Warmly, Rene.

[davjak]

This is exactly where I struggle.
I can't see, hear, feel, taste or smell a true self. I'm not sure what to do about this. Or maybe do nothing , maybe there's nothing to do.

YES!!!
Wouldn't it be the most devilish deceit of all, to give the belief, I exist as a separate presence within what happens, and I need to find myself?

Isn't this hiding what is longed for in the last place 'I' will ever look? Isn't that the cleverest trick of all and the "cosmic joke"?

What might it feel like to have this realized in every cell and fiber, that there never was anything separate and apart from what is happening? How would it be to realize that THIS, whatever seems to be, is IT! It's already it, and there is nothing else to find and nothing that can be looked for, because everything is already EVERYTHING! And the separate, searching presence is found to be the illusion. It never could have found itself and the frustration is integral to it.

Every time we overturn and dismantle another of the conceptual deceits that have been supporting this core delusion, we are taking a step in the right direction.

I asked this before, is a true self a spiritual concept?
No it is not. It just is. Experiences come and go in it, as it.

Do you see the same deceit here, that experience happens in something that contains it (my self), and they are coming and going through me, the container/imaginary presence? It's another imaginary construct.

Isn't this another manifestation of the within/without deceit? See how it requires inside/outside? Because inside/outside can only be a reference to 'me', the imaginary presence that is an addition to what seems to be happening. Yes?

It was a setup. To go looking for the thing doing the looking. If you found the true self, who would be the finder? It's a trick, a setup.

If this is clear, let's look at doership and control. Is there a "free will"?