?

[cha0101]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? no solid “me” at the center of things, no more usual sense of identity, aware of the bundle of sensations, thoughts, and stories.

What are you looking for at LU? To be more present, and live and experience more truth. be in the visual field, sensations, sounds. To not believe or get caught in the mind and illusions. To find genuine freedom in releasing desire and aversion.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Some pointers, to things that are sticky but I either don't see or haven't ungripped. To see that I'm not here, nobody is here, in the traditional sense. Right now that awareness comes and goes. So I'm like on a sea but not firmly rooted in it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? daily meditation; zen group; non dual teachings; self-inquiry; shadow work

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi "?"
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[cha0101]

Thanks Rali,

Appreciate your time and support.

what do you want me to call you?

Chal

What time zone are you in?

Pacific

I'm reading through the links now :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Chal
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

Pacific

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I'm reading through the links now :)

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[cha0101]

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic.

Ok yes, subscribed now

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I believe it won’t feel like being stuck in the mind and thoughts and misperceptions

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

More connection to reality, more sensation and presence

3. What do you want not to happen?

To panic

4. What are you hoping for?

To eventually be free of resistance and have more of a sense of truth, or have the experience of truth, or just be

5. What is missing?

Nothing is missing at all! Although I connect to that truth more often from the mind, and realize it sometimes.

Ty Rali.

Chal

[poppyseed]

Hi Chal

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. That is why “beginner’s mind” can be quite helpful. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

3. What do you want not to happen?

To panic

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Love
Rali

[cha0101]

If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

It’s ok to set them aside yes. I’m glad you said that because there are often at this point more wants and unwanted things arising. Even while knowing they are illusions, they are still present, and sometimes I wonder if acknowledging them will help them dissipate, or rather instead make them more substantial with the focus on them. Simply setting them aside is a good answer to that question.

How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary…

What is is protecting, and is the protection actually necessary — This is really helpful, thank you.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

There is a sense of relief and peace, and no burden, when looking for the I, and thinking there is no doer. If I check in my body overall, there are currents travelling, spaciousness, what feels like a happy sigh. Then when moving up with more focus on the head, behind and around the head, it feels like something is there watching. And ready to jump in and be in charge. Almost like the I moves out a distance, to give the perception of no thinker being present, yet it certainly is there. Just not in its usual place. When looking directly at this I in the removed location, it doesn’t have substance or form. But when noticing it from the periphery, it looks much more substantial, bossy.

[poppyseed]

Hi Chal

There is a sense of relief and peace, and no burden, when looking for the I, and thinking there is no doer. If I check in my body overall, there are currents travelling, spaciousness, what feels like a happy sigh. Then when moving up with more focus on the head, behind and around the head, it feels like something is there watching. And ready to jump in and be in charge. Almost like the I moves out a distance, to give the perception of no thinker being present, yet it certainly is there. Just not in its usual place. When looking directly at this I in the removed location, it doesn’t have substance or form. But when noticing it from the periphery, it looks much more substantial, bossy.

Wonderful! Thank you for your honesty! It gives me an idea where to point to.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[cha0101]

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

This is understood. One is mental activity, a reality ‘overlay’, while the other is a sense experience in the present, and so it’s real, or 'relatively real', as some teachers call it — do you use that terminology, or should we stick with Direct (Actual) Experience and forget about referring to something being real or unreal?

Writing this out below, to hopefully make it more clear within me, through repetition and feeling into it a bit more:
Direct experience is what the senses reveal.
Summarizing, labeling, or thinking about that experience is thought.
Thoughts vanish when examined, while direct experience remains.
Looking and noticing without thought is wordless, and it is true experience.

We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Q. When I look at a photograph of a beautiful place from the past, and it stirs a pleasant feeling—even without specific memories coming up — does that count as direct experience? Or, since the feeling is connected to hidden memories, does it belong more to thought and mental activity?

Direct or Actual Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

The ‘feeling’ theme isn’t quite clear yet. I understand the idea but don’t believe I could confidently identify the difference between some emotions that I might label as ‘feeling’.
On one hand, I don’t want to ask too much at once. But perhaps over time this will become more clear, and I can also bring it up later as a question instead.

P.S. I’ll be away on a retreat for the next three days starting tomorrow morning. The non-dual theme is a fit for the retreat theme, so it’s likely there will be reflection time in the schedule to write. If not, I’ll be back online once the retreat is over!

[poppyseed]

Hi Chal

I’ll be away on a retreat for the next three days starting tomorrow morning. The non-dual theme is a fit for the retreat theme, so it’s likely there will be reflection time in the schedule to write. If not, I’ll be back online once the retreat is over!

Thanks for letting me know!

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I think you skipped that part. Please answer these questions before we move on. This is quite fundamental! In general if you see a “?” or even a “?”, please answer it – these pointers are there for a reason.

This is understood. One is mental activity, a reality ‘overlay’, while the other is a sense experience in the present, and so it’s real, or 'relatively real', as some teachers call it — do you use that terminology, or should we stick with Direct (Actual) Experience and forget about referring to something being real or unreal?

Let’s take a closer look… Words are symbols, carriers of meaning. They are pointers, like fingers that point to "objects". Our experiences are named by words that mean something to us. When we communicate, we exchange ideas and concepts, the meaning is perceived and interpreted through filters of beliefs and conditioning. The same words can mean different things to different people or different things in different situations. That is why we try to stick to very basic concepts – the DE labels. But even these are not the "real thing" - they just point to raw DE. DE is indescribable but experienceable as we will see. The rest is a story

Forget the terminology completely. Don’t even decide whether something is real, relatively real, or unreal.
Right now, without using any word at all, look:
What is here?
What is sensed?
What is thought?
Don’t label it, don’t compare it, don’t measure it. Just notice the raw experience.
Is there anything more “real” than this? Or is that whole question just another thought appearing?

The ‘feeling’ theme isn’t quite clear yet. I understand the idea but don’t believe I could confidently identify the difference between some emotions that I might label as ‘feeling’.
On one hand, I don’t want to ask too much at once. But perhaps over time this will become more clear, and I can also bring it up later as a question instead.

Don’t worry about getting it “clear” in your head. Forget definitions.
Let’s do it right now:
Close your eyes for 10 seconds. Feel whatever is happening in the body — tightness, warmth, tingling, pressure, heaviness, vibration. That’s a sensation.
Now notice: is there also a story about it? For example, “I’m anxious,” “I’m frustrated,” “I’m calm”?
That story = emotion.
The raw sensation = feeling.
Can you see the difference? Don’t explain — just describe what you actually found in the body.

Looking forward to the missing answers and the new ones!
Love
Rali

[cha0101]

Hi Rali, thanks for your reply!

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

At first it feels obvious, that thoughts are true, “there is an apple right there”

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

When comparing the thought that names it an apple with the direct experience of its color, smell, and texture, the idea of “apple” starts to seem elusive.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Looking at an apple on my kitchen counter, only color, scent and texture is there, plus a thought arises calling it “apple”.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

The word and idea “apple” arises only in thought.

That is why we try to stick to very basic concepts – the DE labels. But even these are not the "real thing" - they just point to raw DE. DE is indescribable but experienceable as we will see. The rest is a story

Yes, very good ok

Don’t even decide whether something is real, relatively real, or unreal.
Right now, without using any word at all, look:
What is here?
What is sensed?
What is thought?
Don’t label it, don’t compare it, don’t measure it. Just notice the raw experience.

Raw experience noticed, in response to “What is here? What is sensed? What is thought?”
It’s a lovely experience, when this is practiced in a communication like this, more full and expansive. The sense of time pausing while wordlessly reflecting.

Is there anything more “real” than this? Or is that whole question just another thought appearing?

It seems that even the search for something “more real” is just another thought stirring and appearing here. What’s real is already present, and the question itself pulls attention back into the mind.
How fun to explore this.

Let’s do it right now:
Close your eyes for 10 seconds. Feel whatever is happening in the body — tightness, warmth, tingling, pressure, heaviness, vibration. That’s a sensation.
Now notice: is there also a story about it? For example, “I’m anxious,” “I’m frustrated,” “I’m calm”?
That story = emotion.
The raw sensation = feeling.
Can you see the difference? Don’t explain — just describe what you actually found in the body.

It’s easier to say that one part of the body feels pleasant and another feels uncomfortable. When aiming to be specific, with the feeling, it takes more effort to identify the exact sensation. While labeling the story or emotion comes more easily. Interesting.

A thought that arose was that labeling sensations doesn’t lead to any resolution -- a tangible sense of the strength of the underlying conditioning, as if something needs to be changed.

-story = emotion
-raw sensation = feeling
Thanks for highlighting this.

Appreciating the insights here so much,
Chal

[poppyseed]

Hi Chal

IT’s good to have you back! How was the retreat?

Looking at an apple on my kitchen counter, only color, scent and texture is there, plus a thought arises calling it “apple”.

The word and idea “apple” arises only in thought.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”, existing on its own. Everything that thought labels as an apple exists as sound, smell, taste, colour, and/or sensation. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste).

Experience can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be - contrasting colours. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist? The same is happening with experience. It is thought that divides experience into different abstractions and gives them objectivity via labels (colour, sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation), dimensions, meaning and purpose and then further overlays these with stories about them.
Clear?



Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

The reason behind this exercise is to see the discrepancy between the story and what is really happening in DE. There are no objects involved - these are just labels pointing to raw experience. On the one side you have what thought narrates and on the other the actual raw experience, like in the apple example:

Thought description, simply = raw experience

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above (cup of coffee exercise). Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[cha0101]

Hi Rali! Hope you had a beautiful weekend.

How was the retreat?

It was great — a sesshin retreat. Lots of DE, staring at a wall most of the day each day lol. And then the mind, of course, did what it does best, in creating some exaggerations and dramas, from its fear of losing ground lol

Everything that thought labels as an apple exists as sound, smell, taste, colour, and/or sensation. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste).
Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be - contrasting colours. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist? The same is happening with experience. It is thought that divides experience into different abstractions and gives them objectivity via labels (colour, sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation), dimensions, meaning and purpose and then further overlays these with stories about them.
Clear?

I see what you mean, it’s clear. The shapes only appear separate when thought comes in. And with experience, thought divides and labels it.

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.

Thank you, yes, that makes sense. I can see how this shows thought as separating, and categorizing.

Here are some personal exercises:

Standing next to a tree on the deck
Seeing leaves move = colour (seeing)
Hearing wind = sound (hearing)
Feeling air on skin = sensation (feeling)
Smelling earth = smell (smelling)
Thought “this is calm” = thought (thinking)

Driving a car
Seeing road ahead= colour (seeing)
Feeling steering wheel in hands = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the wildlife as the car passes= sound (hearing)
Smelling air from open windows = smell (smelling)
Thought “the road veers off after this turn” = thought (thinking)

Rain on window
Seeing water drops slide down glass = colour (seeing)
Hearing drops tapping = sound (hearing)
Feeling the coolness in air when the rain begins = sensation (feeling)
Thought “I love weather like this” = thought (thinking)

For the past few months, I’ve been practicing staying more connected to the present moment and the sense field. Direct experience itself stays quiet and immediate. Then thought comes in, wanting to go somewhere, to take the simplicity of DE into the mind. Having a guide makes a difference when reflecting. I just want to say that staying with DE for longer periods isn’t entirely comfortable (not that it needs to be). At times it feels like missing out, or like things that were held together might fall apart. But I know that with practice, it’s becomes a better, more genuine, experience of reality.

[poppyseed]

Hi Chal

It was great — a sesshin retreat. Lots of DE, staring at a wall most of the day each day lol. And then the mind, of course, did what it does best, in creating some exaggerations and dramas, from its fear of losing ground lol

That’s what mind does :) - "The mind is a good servant, but a bad master"

Standing next to a tree on the deck
Seeing leaves move = colour (seeing)
Hearing wind = sound (hearing)
Feeling air on skin = sensation (feeling)
Smelling earth = smell (smelling)
Thought “this is calm” = thought (thinking)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. You can continue doing this exercise throughout the day. If it helps you can write a few lines with each of your replies.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

For the past few months, I’ve been practicing staying more connected to the present moment and the sense field. Direct experience itself stays quiet and immediate. Then thought comes in, wanting to go somewhere, to take the simplicity of DE into the mind. Having a guide makes a difference when reflecting. I just want to say that staying with DE for longer periods isn’t entirely comfortable (not that it needs to be). At times it feels like missing out, or like things that were held together might fall apart. But I know that with practice, it’s becomes a better, more genuine, experience of reality.

Beautiful. That sense that things might fall apart — let it.
Don’t move away from it. That’s not danger, that’s the illusion of control cracking. Nothing real will be lost – it just can’t.
Right now, when you feel that unease or the pull to “hold things together,” what exactly is falling apart?
Look closely.
Is anything in your direct experience actually breaking, or is it just thought saying, “I’m losing something”?What is lost? Sensations? Colours? ...
Stay with the raw sensation of that. Describe what’s here before the mind names it “discomfort” or “falling apart.” What is it made of? Where is it?

Now look even deeper — what is it that’s supposedly holding things together?
Who or what is making sure the practice happens, that “you” stay with direct experience?
Can that controller/the one in charge of holding things together actually be found anywhere in direct experience? When you say "I", how exactly are you doing this? Are you in charge of thoughts? Or your body?
How is control presenting itself? A thought? A sensation? An actual entity? A body doing things? Which one of these rings true at the moment?

When the idea of “trying to stay present” appears, does anything in experience actually change?
Or is the trying itself just another thought, another appearance happening by itself too?
Remember, this is entirely for your own benefit. Forget teachings! There are no right or wrong answers - just what seems true at the moment. Your honesty will make this work as I can point deeper

Love
Rali

[cha0101]

“The mind is a good servant, but a bad master"

Indeed! The old adage seems to become more and more clear lol

If it helps you can write a few lines with each of your replies.

Do you mean taking notes throughout the day and writing a bit more detail than just a simple list, like in our examples here? I can do that, feels like a great exercise.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It’s lovely. A really sweet feeling. Like being connected, like the feeling of home. Even if those moments are still fleeting throughout the day, the world looks subtly different in general.
What still comes up is: When there’s a sense of closeness or connection (in direct experience), part of me still half expects to spiral mentally soon after, with those subtle, irrational thoughts. As a directly response to 'going there', un-gripping for some moments. But today, while walking with my neighbour’s dog, I noticed I was waiting for that subsequent blindsiding to happen, since the nature was serene and more seeing/hearing/feeling was active in the moment. And it didn’t. Just stayed in a quieter, more peaceful place. With maybe a bit of background whining, but no big mental post-DE slam. Such a relief, honestly lol. I’m trying not to expect anything or start generating hopes and spinning future thoughts, but there is still a wish for a steadier foothold, like today.

Beautiful. That sense that things might fall apart — let it.

Don’t move away from it. That’s not danger, that’s the illusion of control cracking. Nothing real will be lost – it just can’t.

Frightening lol, but exciting. The adamant ‘no’ of the past (about releasing desire for control) is giving way to more openness and possibility.

Right now, when you feel that unease or the pull to “hold things together,” what exactly is falling apart?
Look closely.

I guess I want to be a certain kind of person, with things lined up in ways I believe are good. It might sound a bit crazy, but even though I don’t desire disorder, there’s this background fear that if I stop trying to maintain control, I’ll somehow get swept up by the darker currents of the world. A bit like possibly throwing oneself to the wolves. Seeing it written out like this, it sounds ridiculous. Yet there it is lol — the familiar thoughts of my supposed demise and descent into chaos and corruption haha.

Is anything in your direct experience actually breaking, or is it just thought saying, “I’m losing something”?What is lost? Sensations? Colours? ...

Nothing seems to be breaking, except for a few cracks appearing in the cage of the mind.
It’s really just thought after thought, whispering and implying that the path will get shaky, that I’m somehow losing goodness or the hope of happiness.
Yet, oddly enough, there’s more joy in my life now than in any other time I can remember.
Colours and shapes feel more vibrant, so nothing is lost there.
Even sensations that might normally be considered negative feel more alive and real, and not clearly ‘negative’ when tuning in to them. Maybe it still feels like they ‘hurt’ but the ‘negative’ part doesn’t quite seem true anymore.
At least, that has been my experience over the past few days.

Stay with the raw sensation of that. Describe what’s here before the mind names it “discomfort” or “falling apart.” What is it made of? Where is it?

The raw sensation feels a bit like adrenaline or alertness, if that’s the right way to describe it. Before the mind labels it as discomfort, it’s just physical sensations, such as a faint nausea, a wave of tension rising from the chest to the head, an impulse to resist, and at the same time, a subtle sense of some relief or okayness in the whole thing (things falling apart, losing hope of control). It almost feels a bit like acceptance or surrender, and I believe it might be the surrounding or accepting itself, that is actually where the discomfort finally lands. As if there’s nowhere else to go but into that very feeling of the discomfort of accepting that this moment is it, that the DE is all there is. Background joy, background defeat at the same time.

Now look even deeper — what is it that’s supposedly holding things together?

It feels like a vague, foggy energy that quickly dissipates whenever attention tries to focus on it.

Who or what is making sure the practice happens, that “you” stay with direct experience?

It also feels insubstantial, yet there’s a faint sense of form clustering around the body — not as easily dissolved, a bit like whatever seems to hold things together. It feels wider and more expansive than the old, solid sense of self. Even so, when looked at closely, it’s just as absent as the rest.

Can that controller/the one in charge of holding things together actually be found anywhere in direct experience?

No, doesn’t seem to be so!

When you say "I", how exactly are you doing this? Are you in charge of thoughts? Or your body?

This I don’t really know — how am I saying I, when there doesn’t seem to be any actual substance. Yet it is very easy to say “I”. And comforting lol
Lately I’m seeing I am not in charge of the thoughts that arise. Mysterious and surprising.

How is control presenting itself? A thought? A sensation? An actual entity? A body doing things? Which one of these rings true at the moment?

Right now, from some distance, it feels like the controller is a collection of thoughts held together with their own personality and drive, accompanied by sensations of pushing and pulling. Not really contained within the body, but more like a field in and around it. Looking closer, though, it seems more like everything is just happening on its own.

When the idea of “trying to stay present” appears, does anything in experience actually change?
Or is the trying itself just another thought, another appearance happening by itself too?

Now that you ask, it actually feels like the “trying to stay present” thought is just another thought, but with a kind of cheap or artificial quality to it. Still, it seems to trigger something, sometimes — like a movement out of the mind and into direct experience. But I’m not totally sure. I’d love to hear your perspective on this. It feels like something is right there to either understand or release, and I’m just not quite there. Please say more if you would!