Hey Barry! Great to hear from you. And I really appreciated your input and guiding on Vince’s meeting. You sounded quite clear during it. How did it feel?
I feel like they're "the wrong answer" though I know they're not--- they're truthful. Just some things that need to be looked at more closely.
I agree completely. There are no right or wrong answers. They all help point out what’s being seen and what needs more attention. That’s all.
Yes, thoughts are noticed intervening as I'm paying attention to sensations. Sometimes its noticed quickly, sometimes I get caught up in thought. Very human of me, I think :D
It is! LOL When that happens, like I’ve said, just come back to sensation. Eventually thinking patterns will start to change. But it takes habitual retraining.
There is narration as I type. This is also noticed. When there is straight awareness that is all there is and then when I report back, I'm back in the mind, back into a memory of the pure awareness, and back to this narration.
Yeah, that’s the tricky part of having to report this to someone. It’s natural. But the important thing is to be as narrative-free as possible when actually doing these exercises.
Yes I feel the quiet. Feel very relaxed. The I feels quite removed from this space. Very meditative place. The sound of my heart appears in this place.
Okay, this sounds like a good place to rest when you can, and just see if anything changes.
Yes, I have tried turning the awareness back on itself and wasn't quite sure how to do that. I've received that direction in the past but this is the first time I started googling it haha. I became aware of the space of awareness. Felt that space and it is very quiet, and relaxed. I will travel with this for a bit.
Lovely. I’m curious what you came across in your Googling.
In your experience were you able to turn awareness back on itself or did you find it an impossible task?
Yes. Thank you for this. It does very much seem like a meditation practice. One that is already bearing fruits... just wasn't expecting this sort of thing haha. This whole nonduality stuff sometimes comes off as "GET ENLIGHTENED NOW!" "NO WORKOUT NECESSARY" type of stuff. Was expecting more of a lightbulb moment but this quiet noticing is very much a meditation practice. A continue to come back to this quiet space. It's very nice but I'm now seeing that I was actively NOT going down any path that felt like a practice because I didn't believe it would lead to this realization. Just noticing this now.
Haha, different methods for different people from different people. :-) Some people get it quickly from a single sentence, others take years of meditation and insight. Neither makes one person better than another. It’s just our history, makeup, karma, whatever you want to call it. And a lot of people who said they got it instantly with no work had actually done years or decades of meditation and other processes first, but downplay that and only talk about the final straw that tipped them over. The meditative state you’re describing isn’t the end, but it’s a great place to be to continue seeing and ripening you for a big shift!
Hmmm. I see how the word "touch" can cause confusion. Have you ever been in a movie theater and the screen is dark and then the screen changes to bright white? It's so bright it causes some physical discomfort. Or something so loud you have to cover your ears. Reminded me of gripping a hot pot. It's so immediate and shocking and physical. Something that causes discomfort.
Yeah, I know what you’re talking about.
Are you finding sensations to be so heightened that they are uncomfortable then?
When I close my eyes, the first thing I notice is the darkness. Then I search for my face. Not an image but a physical sensation. I find my breath. It feels like I moved awareness forward to do so. This awarenes then moves what feels like upward to my forehead and around to the back of my skull. To my left ear it notices pressure where the headphones are and then to my right ear. It roams downward to where my toungue sits. No thought images are noticed but labeling. This is the tongue. This is the ear. This awareness appears to live inside the body. It can travel down to my fingertips, down to my feet-- all contained in this boundery in which it can freely roam. This is what my mind tells me.
Thanks for your thorough description of this.
Have you tried this without the headphones as well? I find the pressure of headphones and eyeglasses can create those artificial boundary feelings if we don’t investigate them closely enough. You can, however, focus in on those headphone sensations and see if they are really happening outside the confines of your awareness or if they’re appearing somewhere within it.
Also, are you intentionally labeling the different bits, or are you just noticing it arising? You don’t want to label intentionally. Just let the sensations appear as pure, raw experience without any designations.
I also want to ask, are you directing the awareness or is it moving on its own?
I also believe that we might have some confusion about attention vs. awareness.
When you’re describing the small fuzzy ball that can travel around the body, it sounds like you’re describing attention, which is more of the focused spotlight zooming in on whatever is being looked at. Awareness, on the other hand, is more akin to a floodlight, or our peripheral vision that can take in everything widely, but with less fidelity.
Can you feel the difference between the two?
There is darkenss, some different colors but very dark. This does not have broders though it feels very small. An itch on my foot appears and it feels like it's "Down".
This is really common, but keep doing this to notice if those sensations that feel “down” or “left” or “right” really are appearing that way, or if the mind is reorienting them.
If the itch in the foot is “down”, then where is the awareness/attention that notices it? Can the awareness be located right in the foot?
Awareness does feel contained within these walls.
Keep investigating this, but I suspect it will change eventually. Specifically zone in on the perceived borders of the head/face/headphones, and see if they are appearing at the external borders of awareness, or if they are appearing somewhere inside of it.
No, no head can be witnessed in DE. There are images and sounds and sensations. This is being witnessed. The witnesser cannot be found.
Great!
So how do you feel about this?
Yes, perfectly clear. I'm looking for a self to witness and in turn to see it is not real but I am unable to find such a thing. The mind is happy to comply and serve up an answer.
Yup, very true. There will always be “I-ing” if there isn’t diligence about noticing it.
There is no head. There is darkness. sounds arise in space. I hear talking and it feels behind me. This feels like the wrong answer yet it's the honest answer. It is behind. There is direction here even though there doesn't seem to be a point of reference.
Again, there’s no wrong answer. But keep observing this and see if it changes at all. It’ll keep happening, but if you really focus on the sounds with complete presence and relaxation, you might notice something different.
I'll go through each one...
Where is your head? - Using DE I cannot find a head.
Can you see it without looking in a mirror? - No, not all of it. Sticking out my lips a shape appears. Closing one eye (which I can't see) see the shape of the nose (labeling).
Can you feel it without using your hands? - Sensations do arise in this space where the head should be. Like a cloud of sensations. An itch, pressure, etc. Cannot feel detailed features.
Can you hear it, taste it, smell it? - No cannot hear, taste, or smell the head.
All great!
Does this bring any sort of feelings or emotions when you become aware of this?
There is no taste. Just sensation.
Yes. It appears where I think a mouth should be. It does not appear by my feet or in my chest or above my eyes.
Sorry... I just realized you might be asking about where the taste arises rather than the sensation of the liquid in my mouth?
Also... there is no taste... so there is no appearance of taste. Taste doesn't appear until I swallow... I was literally having this conversation with my fiancé like last month on at what point does taste appear... which for me isn't until after I swallow lol. Anyways back to the questions.
No taste? Do you have Covid? LOL Seriously? That’s fascinating.
If you hold food or a drink in your mouth for a minute, you can’t taste anything at all until you swallow? I do agree the flavor is stronger when we open our mouths or breathe through our nose. I suspect because the sense of smell is so connected to taste. Like why when your nose is plugged you can’t taste anything.
Try it with something with flavor, even with food. Observe the taste and see where it’s appearing. Get close to it. I was asking about where the sensation of taste appears, but also notice the sensation of feelings inside the mouth. I find this can be a big trigger personally for a slight shift of identity.
Any difference?
Does the mouth seem “below” awareness, or somewhere else? Is it below awareness or attention? Can you tell a difference?
Swallowing happens below... let me step back and be very clear.
When I close my eyes there is darkness... there is also a center to this darkness. The center is defined by the borders of the vision of this darkness. It's not ever truly dark. There are gradients, even some colors, all dark, all muted. In this darkness there is an up and down, left and right. When I swallow, there is a sensation happening somewhere below. It's not like thought... where does thought appear?
Okay, actually this is kind of frustrating, lol.
Thoughts appear to appear as an overlay on top of my vision. My eyes are open, a thought appears... vision softens... and attention is in the thought. A thought doesn't feel "over there" but the senses do have a "over there" feeling. I would guess it feels this way because we have receptors and it's pretty useful as a living thing who must move in space and watch out for things to eat and things that can eat us.
Yeah, I agree that they are likely adaptations that have evolved to let us know if the tiger is in the bush behind us, or to the right, or the left. But you can also find that the sounds themselves are also just appearing right here, right smack in awareness.
What you’re describing about feeling like awareness is centered behind the eyes and everything else is below them is probably the experience of 99% of us. But the more time you spend with the DE of sensations without returning to thought or labeling those sensations, the more glimpses you might be able to get of things not being quite that way. It will also help to take the floodlight awareness view rather than the spotlight attention view for seeing this.
Again, it feels like it's happening directly inside the nose. There is even some slight discomfort in the nose. Taking in a deep noseful. The smell feels very close... originating in the center of awareness and blossoming out.
I can relate to your experience of this, but keep playing with it.
Does it feel like there’s a smeller behind the scent?
There is no Barry in any of these sensations. No head. Experiencing just happening all on their own.
Excellent!
So where is Barry now?
Sam Harris has a great meditation for examining the feeling of being located in space behind the eyes, and above the rest of the body. Essentially it's this:
Close your eyes. Place your hands in your lap with your fingertips of each hand pressed against the other. Not hard, but enough that you can feel it.
Gently move your hands in small circles to keep the sensation of the fingertips rubbing against their counterparts fresh.
Observe whether it feels like you’re looking down at them from somewhere in the head, or if awareness can actually move right at/into/around the sensations of movements in the fingers.
Play with shifting the focus from attention to awareness and back and see in which ways it changes your experience of the sensations.
Let me know what you find.
I don’t want to keep throwing more stuff at you right now. I feel like the observing of sensations and boundaries, and sitting in the DE awareness are going to be very transformative for you. You’re right there.
Where do you feel like you’re still being hung up?
Keep up the great work, and enjoy your day!
-Todd
That relaxation of the clenched "myself" feels like having been roused from a dream to find oneself alive and aware...Each moment feels fresh, different from any other, and entirely unspeakable...And that is sufficient.- Robert Saltzman
