Seeking

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

So thought seems to have an owner?

Can you find the owner of thought?

Where does thought end and the owner of thought begin?

Is a thought of "you" the same as the "owner" of thought?
Ate they identical?

If so are "you" a thought? Is the "owner of thought" a thought?

Have a look.

Is there a story teller that exists outside the story? Or is it a storytellers trick?

Best wishes

Nina
Xxxc

[Artyzen]

So thought seems to have an owner?
Hmm well not so much an owner but an awareness of thought. So what is the awareness?

Can you find the owner of thought? Thought originates from somewhere and that place would be the 'owner' or originator of thought. But thoughts just appear of their own accord in actual experience, as if from no-where.

Where does thought end and the owner of thought begin? The 'owner' I would describe as awareness. Normally there are thoughts then an awareness of them - it's as if there is a gap. There seems to be a gap between thinking and becoming aware of thinking but it may just be that attention is distracted/on auto pilot then comes in to focus.

Is a thought of "you" the same as the "owner" of thought?
Ate they identical? Yes the thought of me and the thought of the owner of thought at first seem to be the same, but they are not identical. The thought of 'me', includes the 'owner' of thought, it's just one component. But in essence it feels the same.

If so are "you" a thought? Is the "owner of thought" a thought? Well I suppose it has to be as it can only exist in thought.

Have a look.

Is there a story teller that exists outside the story? Or is it a storytellers trick? Hmm I'm not sure, I don't think so.

Best wishes
Louise xx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Let's have a look for awareness.

What thoughts are here about what awareness Is?
What does thought say about awareness?
Where does thought say awareness Is?
What does thought say awareness Is?

Now LOOK.

Where is awareness is actual experience?
Where does sound end and awareness begin?
Where does taste end and awareness begin?
Is it possible to put a credit card sized gap between thought and awareness of thought?

Best wishes

Nina
Xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, very interesting the difference between thinking about awareness and the experience of awareness

What thoughts are here about what awareness Is?
There are thoughts analysing what awareness is. It's something I'm capable of that brings experience to my mind, a large spacious 'thing' that's not really a thing. Awareness is when my attention is on something, when I see, hear, taste something.
What does thought say about awareness?
That is is big, all encompassing, it doesn't have physical substance, but is something in my conscience that means I can percieve and engage in the world.
Where does thought say awareness Is?
It says it's all around me but also that it needs to be somehow connected to my mind in order to process what's happening. Though also in my body, as body sensations bring an awareness of feelings (emotions).
What does thought say awareness Is? It says awareness is an aspect of consciousness that I (and all people/animals) have. It's where the outside world meets the inner world, how I meet and perceive the world.

Where is awareness is actual experience?
I can't actually find awareness in the way I can 'find' a sound/sight/smell. It's hard to find because I use awareness to look, so awareness is looking for awareness. And as soon as 'i' look for awareness it's like space expands around me, then that becomes awareness, but then I can become aware of that, so it's infinite.
Where does sound end and awareness begin?
I can only experience sounds happening - I can't distinguish any bit of the experience that is awareness versus sound, there is just sound.
Where does taste end and awareness begin? Ditto. In experience it is the mind commenting on taste that makes it seem like awareness is located in the mind/in thought. But I guess that's the mind and not awareness itself? I don't know what awareness is now, apart from the thoughts I have about it.
Is it possible to put a credit card sized gap between thought and awareness of thought? I don't think so, as there is thought there is awareness of it. Often there is a delay between thinking about something (ruminating) and realizing I'm doing that but I don't think that's what you're getting at.

Thank you and best wishes, Nina, have a lovely weekend,

Louise

[Nina45]

That is really great looking Louise.

Thought has some very firm ideas about awareness.

But in actual experience ....... is it possible to locate it at all?

Nina
Xxxx

[Artyzen]

Morning Nina

But in actual experience ....... is it possible to locate it at all?

I am finding it hard to locate it in actual experience because I am looking for a tangible thing. So I can locate sounds, smells, tastes etc as they are obvious and very much there in experience. But say I hear a sound, there is the sound, just the sound, changing sounds coming and going. Thought tells me that there is awareness in order for me to perceive the sounds, but how to find it in actual experience? So far what I find as awareness seems to just be thoughts. There's the sound and a thought about the sound....but maybe there's something I'm missing? Awareness isn't a tangible thing so how to find or experience it?

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

More fantastic looking Louise!

So awareness can't be found in actual experience - certainly not separately from sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the experience of thought happening.

If it can not be found in actual experience, is awareness just a concept?

Concepts exist in the content of thought and therefore are not "real" - they can not be found in actual experience.

Can awareness be found in experience? Or is it imagined?

Best wishes

Nina
xxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina

Can awareness be found in experience? Or is it imagined?

Walking the dog today, looking at experiences. My hands felt cold, there was the feeling of coldness in my fingers and the recognition of that in my mind, the thought 'my hands are cold'. I was directing my attention at the sensation of cold and trying to see how I could experience awareness of this sensation. I cannot experience awareness as a separate thing. Awareness seems to be the thing to which everything is experienced, but I think that is a thought or concept rather than in actual experience. The actual experience is that there is a flow of phenomena experienced, one after the other, or sometimes concurrently and mostly fast changing. I experience that flow and how different things come in to focus as it seems like my attention changes and moves from one thing to another/or a sense of directing attention. But it's experienced simply as one thing after another, a flow of phenomena and thoughts happening.

So, so far I can't say I have direct experience of awareness, I just experience sensations, sights, thoughts etc. Is it possible to see or find awareness? How can I experience awareness as the moment I become aware of that, then that is awareness looking at awareness. What I think of as awareness seems to be thinking or the attention of the mind. I don't know, I'm a bit in the dark here!

Best wishes
Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise,

Apologies for not posting! I had an unexpected holiday. Or rather, the holiday I was expecting turned out to be full on and all consuming. It is great that you have noticed the flow of experience and that no separate experience can be found!

So, so far I can't say I have direct experience of awareness, I just experience sensations, sights, thoughts etc. Is it possible to see or find awareness? How can I experience awareness as the moment I become aware of that, then that is awareness looking at awareness. What I think of as awareness seems to be thinking or the attention of the mind. I don't know, I'm a bit in the dark here!

What are you in the dark about? You seem to be clear about experience .... are you expecting to find awareness?

If you sit outside for a while, notice what your eyes do. Can you notice them flickering from one thing to the next?
Do you have any control over where your eyes are moving? Or does it happen automatically?
Can you notice what thought says as your eyes move from one colour to the next?

Best wishes

Nina
xxxx

[Artyzen]

Hi Nina, no problem, I hope the holiday was good, if full-on!
And I meant to get back sooner but have just been really busy.

What are you in the dark about? You seem to be clear about experience .... are you expecting to find awareness?

I suppose there's an expectation of something I will find by doing this process, a result, like all the other people who've been through the process have found. Yes that I'm looking for an experience of awareness and haven't got it. But thank you for pointing me back to my experience.

If you sit outside for a while, notice what your eyes do. Can you notice them flickering from one thing to the next?
Do you have any control over where your eyes are moving? Or does it happen automatically?
Can you notice what thought says as your eyes move from one colour to the next?

My eyes move around noticing all the things in vision. The mind doesn't necessarily name these things - tree, leaf, grass, bench etc but there's a sense of knowing what these things are known as or have a function for. There is also seeing in a different way, the 'artist's way' in that I just see abstract shapes, tones and colours as if I were to draw or paint it. And there is the awareness that I am deliberately paying attention to what my eyes are doing and a running commentary on that - 'now my eyes are moving from grass to bench' etc, then an awkward feeling around whether I keep my eyes fixed on something or move them. Do I control them to keep them fixed or do I control them to move them. 'Self-consciousness' around what I'm doing, so that is observed. There is also a strong sense of the world of colour and form out there and 'me' looking at it.

This contrasts to my experience of sound, which just seems to arise and pass with no sense of me doing anything. I had a brief experience the other day of there just being sound, no 'me' and no 'out there', just sound arising. But with seeing there is a sense of me in here and the world out there and that I am seeing things. Though sometimes I realise what I'm seeing is a continuum of bits of my body against whatever is around me (room, garden) which has the result of losing that sense of separation, it looks like my 'head' is in fact the world.

Sorry for the delay in responding, will aim to respond every day as it's better for the momentum. xx

[Nina45]

Hi Lousie!

This sounds great:

This contrasts to my experience of sound, which just seems to arise and pass with no sense of me doing anything. I had a brief experience the other day of there just being sound, no 'me' and no 'out there', just sound arising. But with seeing there is a sense of me in here and the world out there and that I am seeing things.

Observe typing as you write a reply to me.

Notice how much of the movement seems "automatic".

Movement of hands/ fingers.
Movement of eyes.
Movement of the ribcage and body as breathing happens and typing happens.
Does the thought form as the typing happens? Or does typing form as the thought happens?

Does it feel like there is a "self" required in these movements?
Does it feel like a "self" is required for the thoughts to happen?
Or does it just happen?

Best wishes

Nina
xxx

[Artyzen]

Observe typing as you write a reply to me.

Does the thought form as the typing happens? Or does typing form as the thought happens?
[/quote]
Hi Nina, meant to reply earlier, just got so busy. So as I'm tying these words, the words appear on the screen simultaneously with the sound of the word as spoken in my mind. I really can't experience one happening before the other. Where do the ideas for the words come from? I pause to think before writing the next sentence, working out what to say, but while I'm actually typing, the words are being spelt out and sounded in my thoughts at the same time.
What else is happening...I'm aware of how I'm sitting the feeling of contact with the chair and the strain on my neck if I don't sit up properly, the movement my breath makes in my body, the garden outside, wind and rain swept at the moment, traffic passing behind, the sound of the traffic. Observing all that and writing it down at the same time. I think of it as 'unconscious competence' the final stage in learning, so it happens automatically as I no longer need to process each step of tapping one letter at a time, as I did when I first learnt.

Does it feel like there is a "self" required in these movements?
There is a belief there is a self required, or at least some form of alive conciousness.
Does it feel like a "self" is required for the thoughts to happen?
Well thoughts do just happen, there's no controlling that process. They feel like they belong to 'me' but I think that's just the familiarity of them and the sound of my voice that they come to me by.
Or does it just happen?
When I stop and observe all this, I know the sense of attaching a self to it all is in thought rather than in an actual being. This stuff just does happen but there is also the familiarity of the feeling and a belief it's happening to me.
Hmm don't know what else to say now......Louise

[Nina45]

Hi Louise!

Thanks for the very interesting reply. Let's have a look at each part of it in turn.
Please remember to answer from direct experience rather that thought/theory/story.

the words appear on the screen simultaneously with the sound of the word as spoken in my mind.

From direct experience ........ what is the experience EXACTLY?
Can "mind" be found?

What else is happening...I'm aware of how I'm sitting the feeling of contact with the chair and the strain on my neck if I don't sit up properly, the movement my breath makes in my body, the garden outside, wind and rain swept at the moment, traffic passing behind, the sound of the traffic. Observing all that and writing it down at the same time. I think of it as 'unconscious competence' the final stage in learning, so it happens automatically as I no longer need to process each step of tapping one letter at a time, as I did when I first learnt.

In direct experience .....
how is it known there is "contact with the chair"?
how is it known there is "strain on my neck"?
how is it known there is "breath"?

How is it known there is "the garden outside"?
How is "wind and rain" known?
How is "traffic" known?

I think of it as 'unconscious competence' the final stage in learning, so it happens automatically as I no longer need to process each step of tapping one letter at a time, as I did when I first learnt.

This is a story about a character called Louise "learning".
But the character called Louise is imaginary.
So what is happening separate from the imagination here?

What is "unconscious competence" in actual/direct experience?
Is there more of a "self" present when learning something "consciously"?

There is a belief there is a self required, or at least some form of alive conciousness.

Is "self" the same as "alive consciousness"?
Is "me" required for life to happen?

Very best wishes

Nina
xxxx

[Nina45]

Hi Louise - are you there?

[Artyzen]

Ah well, there's no Louise Nina so I can't be here!!

So sorry I was just about to post, I just have so many things going on and did intend to post yesterday, then just got swept up in admin and work. Thanks for you patience....

And thank you for your reply really specifically pointing me to be with actual experience. I find it difficult, I realise there are such habitual ways of being and noticing that are done through thinking....but it's great, I really appreciate this NIna!

So....I'll go through your questions one by one:

the words appear on the screen simultaneously with the sound of the word as spoken in my mind.
From direct experience ........ what is the experience EXACTLY?
Can "mind" be found?

There is sensation in my finger tips, changing sensation as each finger tabs a key. There is the sound of many keys being tapped. Letters appear on the screen with gaps in between them and as they appear there is a silent voice located in the area of my head saying the sounds of those 'words'. ie reading them as they appear. The fingers know what to do and move quite fast, then stop as there are thoughts working out what next to say, but with the working out during the pause there is no silent voice. The silent voice only happens simultaneously with the words appearing. Re Mind - I experience the contents of mind ie the silent voice, sensations in the body I relate to particular emotions, responses/thoughts to seeing things. I'm not sure that mind itself can be found as I don't think it's a discrete or tangible thing.

how is it known there is "contact with the chair"?
There are sensations of contact, pressure, something I can feel ie there is not no feeling in the area around my buttocks, but there are different sensations that are hard to describe or put in to words. Hard, dense. If I move the sensations change, a bit stronger against part of my butt or legs. If I relax I stay on the chair and don't fall to the ground.
how is it known there is "strain on my neck"?
There is pain in my neck and shoulders and head. Tension. I know if I doing standing Qi gong it is the only time that pain is relieved. It happens most when I'm either sitting at my lap top or lying down in bed. So thought makes the link between the pain and the activity ie the association is 'strain'. I try to ease the tension by moving - ie I move, there is the thought that I hope the movement will change the sensations to ones that are not so uncomfortable. What is the pain or discomfort. It's clearly something I'm not wanting and am trying to change. Its strong sensation that feels tight and dense.
how is it known there is "breath"?
Breath is known as the flow of air in and out of the body. It's involuntary, it happens by itself though I can conciously decided to change that flow to deeper or shallower. There are sensations against my nostrils, back of my throat. My body moves, my chest expands out, my shoulders rise, my belly expands, then goes back down again. It's often irregular
How is it known there is "the garden outside"?
I see trees and hedges and grass and plants through the window. I know the symbol for this is 'garden' or even 'my garden' being contained within a fence boundary that is also marked on documents as belonging to me. I know from experience of walking in and out of the house that what I see is space this side of the window protected from the elements and on the other side of the window the nature in the garden. I realise from a pure seeing point of view there are just a mass of different colours and shapes and my mind is able to interpret these as 'inside' and outside', tree, lawn, sky etc
How is "wind and rain" known?
From experience and knowing the symbols of wind and rain are allocated to those experiences. Wind, I see from inside the house moving leaves. I can't feel anything, I can't hear anything just now but know that sometimes wind creates sound. If I were outside, there would be sensations on my face, walking would be harder (or easier) depending on the direction of the wind, my hair would keep flapping in my face and there would be sounds (wind in the leaves). Rain makes me wet and the dog muddy.
How is "traffic" known? There is a stream of sound that comes and fades, comes a fades, and at the same time vehicles are seen then not seen (as cars drive past). Thinking knows that traffic is the word used to refer to all the vehicles on the road.

This is a story about a character called Louise "learning".
But the character called Louise is imaginary.
So what is happening separate from the imagination here?

Separate from the imagination....the imagination is so huge......there is just the stuff happening separate from the imagination. I'm not sure how to separate it. Is the imagination the thoughts that accompany the experience of what is happening? Without the imagination sensations in fingertips, sensation/tension in brow, sensations in buttocks, symbols appearing on the screen, sounds heard, colours and shapes seen, a constant stream of stuff, stimulus, constantly coming and going, changing, fast moving.

Is "self" the same as "alive consciousness"?
No, I think self is the personal experience of alive consciousness
Is "me" required for life to happen?

I think if there's no me there's no life. No Louise, no living being. But I know Louise is a concept added strongly on to life. Life can certainly happen without 'me' but 'I' need to be there to experience it.....I'll have to be with this last one for a bit. My mind is tired from the exertion of doing this and needs a break! I think I know what I'm meant to be seeing but I want to go on what really happens, what I do really experience.

Very warm wishes
Louise