realizing selflessness

[whoknows]

Nighttime sit:
Once again, had no intention but to sit there.
I liked it.
It occurred to me that at other times in my life, doing that would likely have led to either spending most of the time caught up in thoughts or being bored.
Neither of those things happened.
It’s not that it was interesting exactly, but boredom didn’t arise as an issue.
Possibly that was partly because there was a sense that taking some time to not wrestle in any way with experience was a relief and also a worthwhile habit to develop, which sounds a little like DOing something when I say it, but it didn’t really feel like that.

[whoknows]

I was watching the recording of the Friday meeting, continuing on past where I'd signed off, through the extended conversation with the person who joined right as I was leaving. I kept having to pause for various reasons and continue later, and at one point when I’d paused, I was thinking that maybe it was a mistake for me to listen to the three of you because it was making me jealous. And then right when I started again, you said that you see these videos as valuable for seekers but you “don’t want them to seek it even more, you know, to get lost in what’s missing, to get lost in possibilities and so on.”

[whoknows]

Earlier today, before writing my previous post, I got caught up in a bout of suffering, which part of my mind reacted to, as it does all too often, with “I’d rather be dead.” I have no idea what that’s about—sometimes having such an extreme reaction to rather ordinary suffering.

(Don’t worry. I have never once been actively suicidal in the sense of making any sort of plan for self-destruction. I am more prone to what my spouse calls retrocidal ideation: wishing I’d never been born. I’m glad to note, now that I think about it, that this seems to be happening less frequently than it used to.)

Yesterday I was looking at some other LU threads, and another guide had recommended this process to someone for dealing with self-critical thoughts, but it seemed applicable to other sorts of suffering (I’m condensing and paraphrasing):
(1) Notice the thought.
(2) Notice the bodily sensations.
(3) Separate the thought from the sensations.
(4) Allow the thought and sensations to remain. Does anything need to be done about the thought right now?

Step 4 especially caught my attention.

I did this with my bout of suffering this morning. It loosened it up a little bit.

I also noticed, for the gajillionth time, that I have fantasies that waking up will end all suffering.

And I noticed the familiar feeling of discouragement that this process might be a long, slow, tedious, painful slog of dealing with more and more of my psychological shit.

Awaiting more on this:

the next class focuses on how you feel about what arises.

One more thought on “I’d rather be dead”: I think it was from an Angelo video (or maybe his book?) that I got the interesting idea that one is apt to keep escalating expressions of unhappiness if the lower-level and perhaps more accurate expressions aren’t getting the response they want from the world. I feel like I’ve done that with myself and my spouse.

[whoknows]

Found it. From Angelo's chapter on emotions:

This is torture.
. . . . .
On the surface it would seem that someone using these types of descriptions is clearly feeling the emotion. In fact, their communication is emphasizing just how much they are feeling it. Upon closer investigation, however, this type of communication (even with oneself) is actually a way of distracting from the full experience of the emotion. How is this happening? It has to do with self-soothing through a plea for sympathy.
. . . . .
We recognize that the usual descriptions of discomfort don’t bring about the same soothing that we enjoyed as a child, so we up the ante. We begin to overdramatize our suffering in our self-talk.
. . . . .
When we are able to stop overemphasizing emotions, we are able to start feeling the emotions and are invariably surprised how enjoyable, peaceful, and equanimous an emotion can be.

[vinceschubert]

i said:

the next class focuses on how you feel about what arises.

When you said;

focusing on how I feel about what arises.

i realized that i needed a better way of saying what i want to convey.
i don't want you to focus. At least that's not the whole 'job'. What i want is for you to bring a gentle enquiry to how you react to the reactions that arise.
We don't need an outcome. Just some consideration for the stuff that we usually overlook because we are so enamoured by the content of the stories that overlay the reaction.
i'm not asking you to focus harder on experience. i'm inviting you to become curious about your relationship to what is already happening.
For example, irritation arises. That's one happening.
Then perhaps there's a reaction to the irritation: “Oh no, not this again!” Or disappointment that the irritation hasn't disappeared after all this inquiry. Or an attempt to calm it.
That's the bit that can easily go unnoticed, because attention is caught up in the story about whatever provoked the irritation in the first place.

Suppose frustration appears. What happens in response to that frustration? Is there resistance to it? A wish for it to go away? Perhaps even frustration about being frustrated?
We're not looking to change any of this. We're simply interested in noticing what usually goes unnoticed while we're absorbed in the content of thoughts.
No outcome is needed. Just discovering what's happening.

You said: “Picking and choosing is going on almost all the time. It's exhausting. Help! I'm really sick of this!”
So, There's the picking and choosing.
And then there's the reaction to the picking and choosing.
That's worth investigating, not because it's another layer that needs to be eliminated, but because it's a happening that has largely escaped examination.

One caution: even “notice your reaction to the reaction” can become another job. So I emphasise that gentle enquiry, without needing an outcome.

The invitation is to discover something, not accomplish something.

v

[whoknows]

What i want is for you to bring a gentle enquiry to how you react to the reactions that arise.
. . . . .
One caution: even “notice your reaction to the reaction” can become another job. So I emphasise that gentle enquiry, without needing an outcome.

The invitation is to discover something, not accomplish something.

Got it: notice how I react to the reactions, but just for the sake of discovery, not in order to eliminate the reactions to the reactions or otherwise accomplish anything.

There’s a temptation to revisit the issue that gave rise to much of yesterday’s sticky blob of suffering—an issue that is still extant and will inevitably give rise to more unhappy feelings—but the spirit of your invitation, and all of your invitations (to me? to me now? to everyone?), suggests, to my relief, that I don’t need to manufacture or search for reactions to reactions but I can just wait until something turns up and I happen to recall this invitation and happen to take a look without even TRYing to.

Found myself thinking earlier that I should reread Angelo’s “Emotions” chapter, especially the bits I’d highlighted, because that would probably be helpful. But that felt like a job, like a chore, and possibly a painful one involving dredging up unpleasant emotions. And such “self”-help chores tend to prompt resistance and weary discouragement in me, perhaps at least in part because they seem to reinforce the sense that “I” am not okay now and need to DO something in order to be okay in the “future,” but as far as I can tell, that’s the illusion at the root of all the struggle.

So I appreciate your repeated reminders not to turn invitations to notice things into projects or practices. The invitation itself sets up the conditions for noticing to happen when it happens, without any need to TRY to notice. Whew.

[whoknows]

Thanks as always, vince, for getting up so early to facilitate the Monday meeting.

The only thing I had in mind to possibly bring up at the meeting was what I ended up talking about, at your prompting, to the new person. Maybe the notion of experimenting with not DOing anything at all in meditation might have been relevant and helpful to him, or maybe not. It seemed like that might’ve been what you had in mind, if you had anything in mind?

Anyhow, I still want to put a few thoughts about this into writing.

First of all, I feel like I’ve been discovering for myself what the Zen practice of shikantaza is “supposed” to be: just sitting there. (The word shikantaza literally means “just precisely sitting.”) I think it’s a challenging and confusing practice for most folks who are new to meditation because they’re apt either to get totally lost in thought and think they’re doing it badly or to get bored and wonder what the point is. Even when I’d gotten a bit of a feel for it a long time ago, it still seemed to take a certain sort of effort or DOing. But now, probably because I have enough experience with meditation that my awareness naturally surfaces from thinking periodically, I feel like I’m capable of “just sitting” without it devolving into mostly long stretches of getting lost in thought. And I now have a better feel for why it’s worthwhile to just sit there with no other intention.

In my recent periods of “just sitting,” I’ve been noticing that my mind has more of a haze of thoughts floating over everything and maybe gets caught up in thoughts for longer (though I’m not sure about that part) than when, prior to these experiments, I was using sitting periods to settle into clear-ish awareness of sense perceptions (or “unbound consciousness”).

I like clear awareness, and I’m sad to have less of it since I’ve been “just sitting.”

But it seems like, where I am right now, if I have to choose, it’s probably better for me to spend more time “just sitting,” even if that involves some haziness of awareness, than to spend more time in clear awareness. Seeing my impulses to DO things and letting go of DOing seems particularly important for me at this point, for grokking the illusory nature of the DOer. (I don’t know how to talk about this without making it sound like a subtler or sneakier form of DOing. I think that’s more a problem of communication than of my approach to this, but if you think otherwise, I’m happy to hear it.)

Do you have any thoughts on any of this?

[whoknows]

A thought that arose during late-night sit:
“Just sitting” is an enactment of “It’s all THIS.”

[vinceschubert]

Do you have any thoughts on any of this?

Notice something rather lovely about all this: the two recent sits you described were enjoyable without any need for a special experience.

sets up the conditions for noticing to happen when it happens, without any need to TRY to notice. Whew.

This is significant.
K, I'm wondering if it's time to look less to teachers, books, videos, and even our conversations for the next bit of inspiration. (don't worry, i'm not abandoning you)
You've accumulated plenty of pointers and explanations. You don't need another idea about awakening to investigate.
What interests me now is what life is revealing about the conditioning of that organism, from moment to moment.

Much of that conditioning operates beneath the level of conscious thought. Something happens, and there's a response. Perhaps a tiny contraction, an almost imperceptible reluctance, a flicker of fear, anticipation, pleasure, or defensiveness. Then thought arrives with a story about what's happening.
Usually we're so captivated by what the story is ABOUT that we overlook the response itself.
But what if there's something fascinating to discover in those little responses?
What happens in the body when a thought about work appears? What happens when something doesn't go as expected? When there's a moment of uncertainty? When a pleasant experience ends?
And perhaps even more interestingly, what happens in response to those responses?

We're not looking for anything in particular. There may be conditioning that has never been consciously examined, expressing itself in ways that are surprisingly subtle. There may be feelings that haven't previously found expression.
We don't need to dig them out of some hidden subconscious storehouse. When the conditions are right, things get triggered and show themselves.

And please don't turn this into another project! You don't have to go searching for these happenings, manufacture situations to provoke them, or remember to investigate every response.

The invitation is simply to become curious about what turns up, particularly what ordinarily goes unnoticed.
That curiosity might arise during sitting, while working, while talking with your husband, or while having an ordinary grumpy moment.
And if curiosity doesn't arise, that's okay too.

There's no preferred outcome, no special experience to achieve, and nothing to fix.
Just an opportunity to discover something about the mystery of how this organism responds to life.

Perhaps the most surprising discoveries won't come from looking for awakening at all, but from becoming interested in the little things that have been happening all along.

v

[whoknows]

the two recent sits you described were enjoyable without any need for a special experience.

It seems like what was pleasant was the relief of letting go of all the TRYing and DOing.
(My brain has the tiresome habit of being contrarian in response to almost anything, and the previous sentence was my third or fourth attempt to say, without being or sounding entirely dismissive, that I think these sitting periods were a positive experience mainly because of the absence of something.)

K, I'm wondering if it's time to look less to teachers, books, videos, and even our conversations for the next bit of inspiration. (don't worry, i'm not abandoning you)
You've accumulated plenty of pointers and explanations. You don't need another idea about awakening to investigate.

Maybe. (And thank you for not abandoning me!)

What interests me now is what life is revealing about the conditioning of that organism, from moment to moment.
. . . . .
What happens in the body when a thought about work appears? What happens when something doesn't go as expected? When there's a moment of uncertainty? When a pleasant experience ends?
And perhaps even more interestingly, what happens in response to those responses?

Trying to decide whether to delve into what’s here at the moment, in this completely public forum. I guess I’ll start writing about it, and I can always decide not to post it.

I’m still stuck in the sticky blob of suffering from two days ago. (Yeah, okay, that made it sound like it’s been constant, but I recognize that it hasn’t been. It just keeps recurring.)

OK, never mind. Wrote stuff (sobbing my way through it) and deleted a lot of it. I don’t want to get into specifics here.

Some places where suffering often arises for me, and these are all involved in the current suffering:
- Having to do tasks I don’t want to do, especially if I feel like I shouldn’t have to do them.
- Snafus in communication with spouse, which happen daily (I think), often multiple times a day. (We both now recognize that this is often related to my neurodivergent brain, and so there’s more grace involved than there used to be, but it’s still frustrating and painful.)
- Dealing with anger—my own or others'.

Perhaps the idea of recurrence—the reaction “Oh, dear God, this again?”—adds yet another layer of suffering? I’m not at the “I should be beyond this” stage. It’s just, “Oh, fuck, I am so sick of this!!! Will it ever end?!?” The “this” that I'm really sick of is not so much, e.g., the communication snafus but my strong reactions to them.

Thought of the social gathering I dreaded last week and how it wasn’t so bad as I’d feared, in part because of a clever scheme my husband came up with. I have now started dealing with the thing I’ve been dreading for a couple of days, and so, far, it’s been just as bad as I’d feared.

Bodily responses in all of this are the usual: most obviously, tightness in throat, constricted breathing, tension in face, and crying.

Help!

[vinceschubert]

Trying to decide whether to delve into what’s here at the moment, in this completely public forum.

Go to email to get it out/state it clearly so that it's objectified.

It seems like what was pleasant was the relief of letting go of all the TRYing and DOing.

How did this happen without DOing? (not looking for answers - just appreciation that some mysterious process occurred)

stuck in the sticky blob of suffering

Suffering relies on you not delving into the details. Examine the sensations & notice the reactions to what is discovered about them.

My brain has the tiresome habit of being contrarian in response to almost anything

It's good that you don't say "I am being..." but "my brain" is not much different. What are the details? Are you saying that it invents stories that deny or oppose the "anything"

Snafus in communication with spouse

How 'married' are you to the "normal" in "situation normal all fucked up"? (just examine casually)

Dealing with anger—my own or others'.

What do you mean by "dealing"?

vince

[whoknows]

Trying to decide whether to delve into what’s here at the moment, in this completely public forum.

Go to email to get it out/state it clearly so that it's objectified.

I did write it out (though with some vagueness) but then deleted it before posting. Is that good enough, or should I actually write it up again and send it privately to you?

[vinceschubert]

should I actually write it up again and send it privately to you?

yes please. Be super specific. ❤️

[whoknows]

should I actually write it up again and send it privately to you?

yes please. Be super specific. ❤️

Sent.

It seems like what was pleasant was the relief of letting go of all the TRYing and DOing.

How did this happen without DOing? (not looking for answers - just appreciation that some mysterious process occurred)

Yeah, interesting.

Suffering relies on you not delving into the details. Examine the sensations & notice the reactions to what is discovered about them.

Was going to say, “Will try to remember.” But maybe I won’t TRY. I’ll just remember or I won’t.

My brain has the tiresome habit of being contrarian in response to almost anything

It's good that you don't say "I am being..." but "my brain" is not much different. What are the details? Are you saying that it invents stories that deny or oppose the "anything"

I suppose you could put it that way. My brain tends to frequently offer counterexamples and punch holes in theories—that kind of thing.

Snafus in communication with spouse

How 'married' are you to the "normal" in "situation normal all fucked up"? (just examine casually)

I would be very pleased if that would cease to be “normal,” but even though both of us keep getting a better understanding of the oddities of how my brain works and we keep working on strategies for smoother communication, it hasn’t helped as much as we might wish. But we’ve gotten a bit more tolerant of the problems. I’d be glad if we could keep moving toward more toleration, if not smoother communication.

Dealing with anger—my own or others'.

What do you mean by "dealing"?

I mean that a lot of suffering arises for me (more, I’m pretty sure, than for many other people) when I’m angry or when other people are angry, even if they’re not angry at me but are simply angry in my presence but especially if they’re angry at me. (I saw something once about autistic folks being extra-sensitive to other people’s negative moods, but I’m not sure whether that’s actually a widely recognized thing.)

* * * * *

Used afternoon sit and nighttime sit for “What’s the next thought?” and settling into clear awareness, rather than for “just sitting.” Felt like that would be more useful for mental and emotional well-being today. (It sometimes feels like, if nothing else, meditation is worthwhile for basic mental hygiene.) Both sits were surprisingly clear and peaceful despite all the dread and other unhappiness swirling through the day.