What am I?

[LoriAnn]

Life has a way of doing this in the perfect way for each person, so perhaps this is more about trusting life instead of the 'I' for you?

Well, life pulled the rug out from under me, not exactly instilling trust! haha! But, I know it was a gift, it was beautiful and terrible. Now, it is all labels and images. I don't know what it was anymore.

Also, usually these experiences of pure nothingness are temporary, just glimpses, often to bring up fear so it can be processed.

.
These words are music to my ears!! I am clinging to the word, temporary. It was temporary, with some longer affects. And since I approached this with much gusto, life said, Here ya go! And shoved me off the cliff. And the fear is here, raw and in the open. Good job done, life!

We are inquiring into the separate self here, which is not the complete loss of self (that comes later, often), but just seeing that there is no Lori doing, thinking, deciding, feeling, and making things happen.

Yay! This seems do-able. Causes less fear in my body.

Thank you for your quick response. I was feeling 'contracted' as you say, a word which fits perfectly here, all over my body. Now it seems as though I can handle it.
I will do the exercise, I know exactly what you mean. I have ignored the nudges before, and found it not optimal. If I can learn to listen to and trust my body, I will feel less untethered if the floor does drop out. A good refuge.
Thank you.

[Bluejay]

I will do the exercise, I know exactly what you mean. I have ignored the nudges before, and found it not optimal. If I can learn to listen to and trust my body, I will feel less untethered if the floor does drop out. A good refuge.
Thank you.

Yes, let me know how it goes :)

[LoriAnn]

I thought I posted a reply this morning, but it isn't here, so I must have messed it up!

1. Tell your mind that you will conduct an experiment for 24 hours,

No surprise to you, this actually worked!

3. Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like? Is it instant or does it require time?

I am not sure where in the body the communication is coming from. It is not instant, it requires time, which I don't have all the time. I think perhaps the time involved is just on my end, that it takes time for me to hear/feel it.

4. Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

Thoughts about self, which are usually negative, cause my stomach and shoulders to tighten.

What happened? Report back what you discover.

I was able to pick up signals on whether to keep going with a task or not easily - and actually was able to stay focused longer than I would have. Without listening to the mind, which struggles with finding peace in the mundane, I was more peaceful. It would seem the body and awareness are inter-locked. I would be deep in thought doing something, and awareness would make itself known (an actual feeling in my head and eyes comes on and the field arrives where I feel like I am looking out a pair of eyes onto a silent, tranquil, still room, is the best I can describe it) so I would remember to go into the body. This happened strongly 4 or 5 times throughout the day. Usually when I was the farthest from it.

When you think about the state of nothing now, notice that it's a thought/image. It's not the real thing, but you can use that to bring up the fear, and then gradually go into the fear. Let go of any labels, and get to know it.

I did not sit and face the fear, and I have actually skipped the morning meditation, making every excuse Lori could. I love to meditate, and really treasure my silent hours, but not today, friend! I am resolved, though, so no matter WHAT I am going to sit tomorrow, as I need to do this to move forward. It's the whole point.

[Bluejay]

No surprise to you, this actually worked!

Yay 😎

I am not sure where in the body the communication is coming from. It is not instant, it requires time, which I don't have all the time. I think perhaps the time involved is just on my end, that it takes time for me to hear/feel it.

For some people it is slower, so keep experimenting and noticing, and it will clarify naturally.

Thoughts about self, which are usually negative, cause my stomach and shoulders to tighten.

Yes, usually the self is a contraction/tightening, which is labeled as 'self'.

I was able to pick up signals on whether to keep going with a task or not easily - and actually was able to stay focused longer than I would have. Without listening to the mind, which struggles with finding peace in the mundane, I was more peaceful. It would seem the body and awareness are inter-locked. I would be deep in thought doing something, and awareness would make itself known (an actual feeling in my head and eyes comes on and the field arrives where I feel like I am looking out a pair of eyes onto a silent, tranquil, still room, is the best I can describe it) so I would remember to go into the body. This happened strongly 4 or 5 times throughout the day. Usually when I was the farthest from it.

Sounds good!

It can be surprising that the body does just fine on its own, no thinking needed.

I did not sit and face the fear, and I have actually skipped the morning meditation, making every excuse Lori could. I love to meditate, and really treasure my silent hours, but not today, friend! I am resolved, though, so no matter WHAT I am going to sit tomorrow, as I need to do this to move forward. It's the whole point.

It can happen that you avoid something, but also notice that determination builds on its own, and then the facing the fear happens ... or not.

Usually when I notice avoidance like this for my inquiry, I know there's something juicy there to investigate, so that now makes me more interested in it :)

[LoriAnn]

So, I sat this morning with the attitude, whatever comes up, comes up. Some grief came up, and I felt it, tried not to get lost in thoughts and did a pretty good job of just feeling the sadness. It moved on. Some more ongoing sadness came up, I felt that, and let it move on. It came back, in a different way, so I let that stay, and it moved on.

Then, I felt like I was sitting in front of a bottomless dark hole, and that I was tipping forward into it. I was overcome by fear. I stopped myself from falling/feeling it before I even realized it. Just a knee-jerk reaction of getting away. So I sat some more, trying to let the fear come, but the moment had passed, and I couldn't get back to it.

I realize now that I don't very often let myself go to the dark places in meditation, nor do I just sit with no expectation. I have done it, but it's not a regular thing. I usually go toward the joy, which is always there.

"Presense" is hanging around this morning. It comes and goes, through every day, which shows me one thing amongst many:
Lori is not in charge

I have a very basic, maybe ridiculous question that I have had a long time. If Lori /thought is not real, is a mind created veil over what is really in charge, why is all this hoopla necessary to get beyond her? Awareness could wipe out the veil in any manner of ways, in an instant, a week, a year. or a life time, or a thousand lifetimes. Ahhh, is that the answer? Stillness IS wiping out the veil? In an instant?

I have told 'the head' that the body is in charge today. Gonna see where that leads.
Thank you!

[Bluejay]

Then, I felt like I was sitting in front of a bottomless dark hole, and that I was tipping forward into it. I was overcome by fear. I stopped myself from falling/feeling it before I even realized it. Just a knee-jerk reaction of getting away. So I sat some more, trying to let the fear come, but the moment had passed, and I couldn't get back to it.

No problem. Let it happen naturally :)

So, I sat this morning with the attitude, whatever comes up, comes up. Some grief came up, and I felt it, tried not to get lost in thoughts and did a pretty good job of just feeling the sadness. It moved on. Some more ongoing sadness came up, I felt that, and let it move on. It came back, in a different way, so I let that stay, and it moved on.

Excellent!

I realize now that I don't very often let myself go to the dark places in meditation, nor do I just sit with no expectation. I have done it, but it's not a regular thing. I usually go toward the joy, which is always there.

It's a very human thing to avoid going to the dark places within.

Have you ever tried bringing the joy into the dark places? The dark places are not truly dark. They are just places that have been neglected, and once they have been included, there are gifts there, so there is joy there, too.

I have a very basic, maybe ridiculous question that I have had a long time. If Lori /thought is not real, is a mind created veil over what is really in charge, why is all this hoopla necessary to get beyond her? Awareness could wipe out the veil in any manner of ways, in an instant, a week, a year. or a life time, or a thousand lifetimes. Ahhh, is that the answer? Stillness IS wiping out the veil? In an instant?

I have no idea really.

But it's good to note that the story that something is being wiped out, or needs to be wiped out, is just that--a story.

And this story is often created to distract from the feeling in the body. It's an escape from this moment. Do you see this?

There is just this life happening, and we have no idea why or what's going on. When that is truly seen, there is just the joy of this unfolding, which includes the whole spectrum of emotion.

I have told 'the head' that the body is in charge today. Gonna see where that leads.
Thank you!

Sounds good!

[LoriAnn]

Have you ever tried bringing the joy into the dark places? The dark places are not truly dark. They are just places that have been neglected, and once they have been included, there are gifts there, so there is joy there, too

How do I do this, please? What would the approach be? I get it, shine the light and of course the darkness is still there/isn't there. I can feel the need for the love to heal it/neutralize it.

[Bluejay]

The way I would do it is to get in touch with the joy, let it permeate everything, and then go to a dark place. The two will blend together almost.

It's difficult to describe. You probably have to find your own way of doing this. And it may be that it's not really needed. I don't really do this myself anymore because there's compassion and gratitude for what arises.

[LoriAnn]

Hi Henri,
What came to mind during meditation regarding the black hole of doom, were the thoughts, why not "free fall into love"? The black hole became a tunnel of love. So, Presence handled this in the softest, sweetest, kindest fashion. I could not have been more surprised. So that' s what is happening, the black hole is becoming this free fall. I couldn't actually sit and tip myself in, that was too much. But the overwhelming sensation is this falling into love. It is revealing itself only as fast as I can handle it. But it's so beautiful, and loving, I am speechless at the simplicity and compassion.

But it's good to note that the story that something is being wiped out, or needs to be wiped out, is just that--a story.

Ahhhhhh! Thank you! it IS a story! I forget these things, when I am neck deep in the story swamp. Yes, I see it. The mind once again, is trying to take over.

And this story is often created to distract from the feeling in the body. It's an escape from this moment. Do you see this?

I did not figure out exactly what feeling in the body is being avoided, but I will. I had much trouble with this at the beginning of our conversation. My mind was scattering all attempts to turn away from it. I am still listening to my body, it comes and goes throught the day.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Henri.

[Bluejay]

What came to mind during meditation regarding the black hole of doom, were the thoughts, why not "free fall into love"? The black hole became a tunnel of love. So, Presence handled this in the softest, sweetest, kindest fashion. I could not have been more surprised. So that' s what is happening, the black hole is becoming this free fall. I couldn't actually sit and tip myself in, that was too much. But the overwhelming sensation is this falling into love. It is revealing itself only as fast as I can handle it. But it's so beautiful, and loving, I am speechless at the simplicity and compassion.

Absolutely beautiful. I'm always amazed at how everyone finds their own way through seeming obstacles. All I'm really here to do is to tell you to go for it 😎

Ahhhhhh! Thank you! it IS a story! I forget these things, when I am neck deep in the story swamp. Yes, I see it. The mind once again, is trying to take over.

Yes! Even the mind is a story, so nothing to be wiped out, no one to take over. Just the falling in the tunnel. Even that is a story. What remains?

Just this.

And what's this? Who knows. Could be a cheesecake for all we know.

I did not figure out exactly what feeling in the body is being avoided, but I will. I had much trouble with this at the beginning of our conversation. My mind was scattering all attempts to turn away from it. I am still listening to my body, it comes and goes throught the day.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, Henri.

Let it happen at its own pace. You will no doubt discover that these feelings that feel so unpleasant are just another tunnel into love, they often just have to be felt first.

Here's a pointer on memory:

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

During this exercise. please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say. Focus on direct experience.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference known exactly?

[LoriAnn]

And what's this? Who knows. Could be a cheesecake for all we know.

I HOPE it's a cheesecake! :p

What is memory exactly?

It is a thought. However, thoughts come from nothing, and go to nothing therefore, memory is nothing.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Images, feelings, sensations.

WHEN does the memory appear

I have written down many, things here, but the pattern is just to reaffirm SELF, make self more real, substantial. It states there is an 'I', and it did something.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

I don't see any difference?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

The only proof I can come up with is if there is physical evidence that what you are thinking happened. Like a scar on your body? Or if lots of people talk about the same event. All will have a different view, but can discuss it. I think I am missing something here, my head is buzzing.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Same: feelings, sensations, images.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

when the self wants to be reassured it will be alive and well in the future.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought? I don't see one.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It can't possibly.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

Well, both are used to support the sense that there is a self. I know self doesn't exist. I want to say the difference is one happened, and one didn't.

If there is difference and how is that difference known exactly?

I am gonna need help with this, please.


That said, I can see where this is going.... my ears are starting to drift apart, leaving a biiiiig space... This happens sometimes (uh-oh, thought of the past!). Yikes. ;)

[Bluejay]

I HOPE it's a cheesecake! :p

🍰

I don't see any difference?

Correct. Both are thoughts.

The only proof I can come up with is if there is physical evidence that what you are thinking happened. Like a scar on your body? Or if lots of people talk about the same event. All will have a different view, but can discuss it. I think I am missing something here, my head is buzzing.

Have you ever had physical evidence for something you thought happened, only to find out you misremembered it?

Now, this is not about saying that memory is useless, just to start poking holes at it, so it can be seen for what it truly is, instead of something real, if that makes sense?

Well, both are used to support the sense that there is a self. I know self doesn't exist. I want to say the difference is one happened, and one didn't.

You might enjoy this meditation, have a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYnKMggFxfE

I am gonna need help with this, please.

You said a memory thought happened and future thought didn't, the question would be: How do you know that?

Have a listen to the meditation above and let me know if you view this differently.

[LoriAnn]

Now, this is not about saying that memory is useless, just to start poking holes at it, so it can be seen for what it truly is, instead of something real, if that makes sense?

I totally get it, we need memory, or else we wouldn't be able to do much. What is right in front of me, when I am in the awareness space, is the only relevant thing. How could there be more? I know that space is always there, but I am not able to stay there. Something takes me out. Anyway, yes, I understand the fact that memory is/is not relevant.

Have you ever had physical evidence for something you thought happened, only to find out you misremembered it?

I'd like to say no, my husband would say yes! Haha! Yes of course, It would seem each time we remember something it is like the Telephone game. You don't remember the original occurrence, you remember what you recreated, and so on...

You might enjoy this meditation, have a listen

I listened to the video. Wonderful! I had a knee-jerk reaction, though, that I cannot seem to prevent. I was feeling the bottom drop out, and a realization started to occur, when my mind got ahold of me and I reached for my coffee cup as a distraction! I actually told myself I was thirsty in the midst of it, and then the moment was lost. I know it just takes practice to see what the self is doing, and head it off. At least I noticed it after! If you have any help in this area, I'd love it.

You said a memory thought happened and future thought didn't, the question would be: How do you know that?

Lori has categorized them this way, but of course, because it isn't happening right now, I can't know if it actually happened! it is an assumption, not necessarily truth. So, I don't know it happened.

Thank you for your perseverance with me. I am slowly changing and having small realizations throughout the day. :) This really helps, knowing you are here!

Full disclosure: I have 6 family members staying with me starting on Tuesday for Thanksgiving. I am thrilled, we have a very loving family, but it might be difficult to find time for contemplation. I am okay to proceed until Tuesday, but I may slow down a bit next week. Is that okay?

I will listen to the new meditation again tonight, with heightened awareness, and continue to sit with my free fall into love!
Thank you Henri!

[Bluejay]

Something takes me out.

Since we're looking at the separate self here, this is not about staying in a space, or feeling a certain way, just about looking if there is a 'self' doing, deciding, thinking, feeling... so is there a self taking you out, doing something, or does it happen based on conditioning?

I know it just takes practice to see what the self is doing, and head it off. At least I noticed it after! If you have any help in this area, I'd love it.

Let's try something different. Instead of me giving you something, why don't you ask your intuition, awareness, universe, whatever you want to call it. Ask for what is needed here.

If nothing else, this may keep happening until you're so sick of it that you go through it anyway.

Full disclosure: I have 6 family members staying with me starting on Tuesday for Thanksgiving. I am thrilled, we have a very loving family, but it might be difficult to find time for contemplation. I am okay to proceed until Tuesday, but I may slow down a bit next week. Is that okay?

We can take a break from pointers and you can just focus on Vipassana noting starting Tuesday?

Until then, here's another pointer:

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if it started at all) far in the past and advances to the future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and moving into the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Look at a thought about the past or the future, where is 'time' in that?

Is there actual experience of ‘time’ or just thoughts about ‘time’?

Enjoy! :)

[LoriAnn]

so is there a self taking you out, doing something, or does it happen based on conditioning?

Conditioning, which I assigned to the self. Duh.

We can take a break from pointers and you can just focus on Vipassana noting starting Tuesday?

Thank you.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

I don't experience one moment giving away to the next, but somehow I feel there is a timeline. I am baking bread, I need to wait for it to rise. Time. This is really pushing some buttons, I feel a little upset, maybe even angry.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

Hmmmm.. I mixed the flour, and now I am seeing it rise. Can I experience the mixing of the flour while I watch it rise? No. Direct experience only the rising.