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[AwayKen127]

When breathing while cooking there was a belief in an agent breathing. Nothing stood out as different but will continue this comparison throughout the day.

Here's a difficult exercise if you're willing to try it. Sit down and hold your breath as long as you possibly can. As the sensations build, keep your attention on the sensations moment by moment. In the millisecond before you start the in-breath, can you find in direct experience a mechanism or trigger that actually links the sensations or the thoughts to taking the breath? Or do you just find sensations and thoughts, and then taking a breath? What determines the actual instant when the in-breath begins? Let me know what you find.

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff, I'll give the exercise a try tonight and report back! Otherwise continued to look throughout the day yesterday.

[Russ84]

Morning Jeff, I did the exercise a couple times yesterday and woke up this morning to notice that there was no one breathing. Will continue to look for the rest of the day but so far it all seems to be happening without anyone, just breathing, walking, driving...

[AwayKen127]

I'm curious about why breathing seemed to require a breather. After all, most of the time there are no thoughts about breathing and yet breathing is happening. I'm guessing that the issue was that there could be a thought to hold your breath and then the breath would be held. But then, in direct experience, what is the connection between the thought and holding the breath?
Jeff

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff, it was a weird morning yesterday, everything felt a little different, hard to describe, but sometime throughout the work day the belief of being in control was back and after noticing that then frustration came.

I kept looking at the sensations and thoughts of frustration noticing the two weren't connected. Still feeling some frustration and defeat this morning but continue to look at the belief of being in control as well as the thoughts of frustration and the sensations being experienced.

I'm curious about why breathing seemed to require a breather. After all, most of the time there are no thoughts about breathing and yet breathing is happening.

On my meditation retreats they've always said to not control the breath but just be aware of it during sits and I've always struggled to "not control it". It always felt an impossible task once I was aware of the breathing. I have been bringing attention to the fact that breathing happens all the time when not aware, especially when awareness goes to thoughts and then back to focusing on the breath.

But then, in direct experience, what is the connection between the thought and holding the breath?

I'll use this when doing the exercise throughout the day.

[AwayKen127]

Great, Jerry. Let me know what you find.

[Russ84]

The frustration stayed for most of yesterday, kept looking at the connection between the sensations and thoughts and not finding one. Didn't end up looking at the breath but this morning the frustration is gone so I'll get back to working on the breath today

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff, didn't get much looking done yesterday, held my breath for a few times though still believing in a connection between the action and thought. Will continue the exercise today.

[AwayKen127]

"Believing in a connection" is just a thought. Do you see/find a connection in direct experience?

[Russ84]

I don't seem to be able to see a connection in direct experience but I still have the belief of controlling the breath. Not sure how those two can both be true though? There's thoughts if I can't see a connection why would I still believe in controlling the breath.

[AwayKen127]

I don't seem to be able to see a connection in direct experience but I still have the belief of controlling the breath. Not sure how those two can both be true though? There's thoughts if I can't see a connection why would I still believe in controlling the breath.

In experience, whose belief is it? Or is it just a thought that the belief belongs to somebody?

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff have been looking at the belief/thought, nothing found yet, will continue to look for another day.

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff, at first I found it a little difficult to consistently see the thought of being in control and now I'm just noticing the thought each time. I keep noticing there's no connection of the thoughts to the sensations. Starting to direct attention to whose thought it is to see and answer your question.

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff, continuing to look over the last day at the thought of being in control. There's been moments of noticing no one is breathing again, still working on seeing the belief of being in control as just a thought and not belonging to someone.

[AwayKen127]

The question of belonging goes very deep. What exactly, operationally, does it mean to construct the belief that "your life" belongs to "you"? You might remember a scene from your childhood and then a scene from later in your life. What are the microscopic steps that connect these scenes and situate them within "your life"? Let's assume that each scene occurred in front of the same house. In that case, you might see that there is a thought that claims, "the house in the two scenes is the same house". Now, consider the sensation of the "house" as it appears in memory. There might be a vague splotch of color or shape labeled "my house", but I think you can see that the remembered splotches don't contain enough information to uniquely specify a particular house or even any house. "House" is a judgment that claims to be based on the splotches. Once the judgment (label) forms, the splotches aren't even needed any more.

What I described above is the flimsiest thing imaginable. And it's just the starting point for the house of cards that is identity or continuity or ownership. Are you grokking? So how do you construct the belief that a thought can belong to you?