Staying awake

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:22 pm

Hi Cyberogue,
but the language can also trap one into ways of thinking.
Indeed! Every single sentence enhances the notion of I, me and mine.
There is no total experience of awareness, only moments of focused awareness that come from different sensory input. .
Are you expecting a "total experience of awareness", when the Illusion of self is seen through? What would it look like?

With much love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Cyberogue
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Cyberogue » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:41 am

Hi Ghata,

Yes, the there is an expectation of a total experience that is like "waking" up. That was and honestly still is the expectation. Actual experience of being aware, defined by forgetting an I because the actual sensory experience is all that is present, comes and goes. I am standing in the bank now. It is an "I" until I look at the floor and suddenly there is just sound, even temparture, voices of people. There isn't an I but an awareness of these things. Then I look up and "I am back", the idea of me as a personality needing my banking sorted and late for a meeting, etc.

B

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:50 am

Hi Cyberogue,

thank you for sharing your expectation so openly. It won't be like that. And since your measure for seeing through the Illusion of self is this other state of consciousness, you don't notice that you are already getting it.
Actual experience of being aware, defined by forgetting an I because the actual sensory experience is all that is present, comes and goes.
It happens in a different way. You won't forget that there is an I because you are immersed into sensations. You will see through the Illusion of the 'I'.
Did you have to forget Santa to understand there is no real Santa? No, you either found out for yourself or somebody else told you that there is no real Santa. What changed? Where you in a different state of consciousness afterwards?

The same will happen when seeing through the Illusion of 'You'.
I am standing in the bank now. It is an "I" until I look at the floor and suddenly there is just sound, even temparture, voices of people. There isn't an I but an awareness of these things. Then I look up and "I am back", the idea of me as a personality needing my banking sorted and late for a meeting, etc.

That's it. Just listening, there is only sound. Just seeing, there is only forms. No listener, no see-er, no I to be found. Then the sense of a self returns.

Next time just hearing or seeing happens, pay close attention to the 'I' coming back. Where does is come from? What is it made of?

Sending much love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Cyberogue
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Cyberogue » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:26 pm

Hi Ghata,
Next time just hearing or seeing happens, pay close attention to the 'I' coming back. Where does is come from? What is it made of?
It seems to always be a thought that starts, and then the "I" returns to deal with the thought, and the subsequent barrage of thoughts that follow. As if the "I" is created to deal with the thoughts, as well as to generate them. Once they are there, is is hard to distinguish between thought and the "I", they are practically inseparable.

Cyber

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:46 pm

Hi Cyberogue,

so the I is located somewhere in the thought realm.

Let's have a close look at this.

Sit quietly and play close attention to thoughts for 30 or so minutes. Do 6 observations of approx. 5 min. each. Don’t try and muddle them up and look for them all at one time. Take one at a time and if you need to spend more time looking at each one, then take more time. If possible do this exercise a few times throughout your day and notice your thoughts throughout the day.

1) Where are thoughts coming from? Look very carefully. Is there an obvious cause or reason for their appearance or their sequence?

2) Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?

3) Can you stop a thought before it arises or after it has arisen?

4) It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully. Is there an organised sequence OR is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ and that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

5) Observe a thought. When a thought appears, are you ever given an option to avoid that thought or is every thought appearing spontaneously without anyone’s permission?

6) Where is the starting point and ending point of thoughts?

7) Can you find a sperate I between the thoughts? Or is the I a thought itself and if so, do I-thoughts differ from other ones?


Just a reminder that with this inquiry we can make an artificial distinction by saying that mainly there are two types of thoughts:

1. Thoughts 'made of' or 'consisting of' words or letters (like the word 'tree' or 'table')
2. Mental images (of a 'tree' or a 'table')

So when we investigate thoughts we are mainly referring to either 'word thoughts' or 'mental images'.

Please answer each of the 7 observation questions individually and answer directly from your observations.

With much love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Cyberogue
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Cyberogue » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:15 pm

Hi Ghata,

This I can only do in a few days time, I have a lot to take care to with my dad and not going to get alone time for a few days. Give me till Monday. I will message then.


Cyber

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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:39 pm

Hi Cyberogue,

thank you for sending the short note.

No problem, take your time. And also feel free to share about what is going on right now, it certainly is a lot!


With much love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Cyberogue
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Cyberogue » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:26 pm

Hi Ghata,

There is a lot going on right now. The family dynamics are hard. Anyhow. Please bear with me as I have to drive my mom around, and we have the wake on Thursday so I am never sure when I have time or not.

I am trying the exercises when I have a chance so will answer a little erratically, but I am also keen to keep moving forward in some sense.
1) Where are thoughts coming from? Look very carefully. Is there an obvious cause or reason for their appearance or their sequence?
When sitting or resting thoughts appear either spontaneously. There is a sense of a gap, call it a lack of clear thought, when just allowing input to be there, and thoughts almost rush to fill that gap. Honestly my gut reaction is that there is in fact some kind of crazy coherence but its not conscious or controllable by my conscious mind. Once they start, one triggers another and they rush around. Only concentrating on sensory input keeps the gap clear of thinking.
2) Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
No. It can be forced in a direction, but after that its like a wriggly hamster - it just runs off wherever it wants to, generally in the opposite direction from where "I" would choose to take it. At least, there is a constant attempt to reign in a new thought with a different thought, or analysis of it. Its a crazy cycle.
3) Can you stop a thought before it arises or after it has arisen?
Before it arises? How can you stop what you can't even know is coming? So, I don't think so. Once it has arisen. Thought has a gravitas of its own. The big ones are scary ones are not easily dealt with. Little ones or light ones can be brushed aside. At best, concentrating on something else (could be another thought) or sensory input (like breathing during meditation) takes attention off it and that reduces the power, but doesn't change the thought itself.

That's as far as i have got.

Wanted to ask - do you want me to avoid saying "I" when I write? How do you navigate in the world if you really believe there is no "I", as there is still a body referred to that is responsible for things getting done?

C

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:49 pm

Hi Cyberogue,

I deeply appreciate your commitment to move forward even during these difficult times. Be easy on yourself, it is a hard time. Feel free to share what is going on within your family and how you feel.

For the next week take a break with the question until after the wake. I have commented on your answers and we can then have a look at it.

For this next week I have a special exercise for you. It refers to your last paragraph.
Wanted to ask - do you want me to avoid saying "I" when I write? How do you navigate in the world if you really believe there is no "I", as there is still a body referred to that is responsible for things getting done?
It is not about a new belief "That there is no 'I' ". It is about seeing it like you see the sun.

I use the word I and all pronouns. The way the language is made up it strongly reinforces the illusion of an I. Try this during the next week.

There are two ways of describing what is happening in direct experience. Play with each as you go through the difficult days ahead of you.

1. I am sitting on the Sofa. I feel the weight of the laptop on my thighs. I am seeing the candle flame. I am Hearing the noise of the Refrigerator. I hear my neighbour putting the key into the lock. I hear the humming noise of the nearby harbour. My eyes feel tired.

2. Sitting on the sofa. Pressure on my thighs from my Laptop. Seeing the light of the candle flame. Hearing the sound of the Refrigerator. Noise of keys being put into the doorlock of the neighbour. Humming nose of nearby Harbour.
Some soft pressure in my eyes.

Is there a difference how you feel when you use either of them?


Sending lots of love and wishing you all the best for the coming days,
Ghata

These comments are for later use.
When sitting or resting thoughts appear either spontaneously. There is a sense of a gap, call it a lack of clear thought, when just allowing input to be there, and thoughts almost rush to fill that gap.

Lovely direct experience :-)
Honestly my gut reaction is that there is in fact some kind of crazy coherence but its not conscious or controllable by my conscious mind.

This is a thought as well.
Once they start, one triggers another and they rush around.
Can you actually perceive that they trigger each other? If not, this is a thought as well.

Only concentrating on sensory input keeps the gap clear of thinking
Can thoughts see or hear, feel, smell or taste anything?

2) Observe thought closely. Try to determine what your next thought is going to be before it appears. Can you do this?
No. It can be forced in a direction,

How does that work?
3) Can you stop a thought before it arises or after it has arisen?
So, I don't think so.

Try it.
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:58 am

Hi Cyberogue,

how are you doing?


Sending lots of love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Cyberogue
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Cyberogue » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:32 am

Hi Ghata,

I seem to have lost a post to you, in fact, two.

So let me re-start.

Firstly. The missing post asked for some advice. How would you comfort someone who has lost their soul mate of decades and decades? Considering all the guidance on this post itself as to the fiction of the "I", but the very real suffering which is nothing sort of total.

What would you say?

As for the exercises. The post was also an apology. I am here. I will be here more consistently, but the time has been a veritable mix of highly emotional and very busy with all the things to attend to. The wake. My mom. Friends. The last few days have blurred together.

My previous post might have had more detail, but there are some big points that seem to be worth mentioning.

* Death is so merciless that it seems pointless to fear it, you don't escape or get a reprieve by fearing it, so why bother.
* I feel remarkably unchanged by much of this. Not sure how to describe this better. In the exercise of looking for the I, there is a central calm gap that's comforting to occupy. It is readily available to me at most times.
* Death makes no sense, and therefore its easy to abandon trying to make sense. There is an element of hiding in this approach perhaps, but i am not sure.
* There hasn't been a removal of fear of daily living - the need for achievements, etc - have all come back after the initial shock and very large perspective shift. It feels like death should be a better reminder of how temporary these fictions are, but their gravity still pulls on me

Again. Apologies. I am not giving up on this, and will be more consistent. This week still promises to be difficult for me though.

thanks for the message.

C

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:04 pm

Hi Cyberogue,

it is alright. Life has it own ways.

Death is a terrible shock and a powerful eye opener. You have realised a lot.

The excruciating pain of losing your soulmate for decades cannot be comforted. The comfort you can give is allowing all of (your mom's?) pain to be, to come out in whatever expression it finds. That way it can heal in it's own time which might be long. Can you be with her in that and also with your own emotions which may be quite different?

Talk more about how you feel and the central calm gap you can access quite easily. Is there a 'you' in this gap?
Who could achieve anything?

Sending lots of love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Cyberogue
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Cyberogue » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:26 am

Hi Ghata,
The excruciating pain of losing your soulmate for decades cannot be comforted. The comfort you can give is allowing all of (your mom's?) pain to be, to come out in whatever expression it finds. That way it can heal in it's own time which might be long. Can you be with her in that and also with your own emotions which may be quite different?
There is a desire to fix the unfixable, but when someone is in such pain it feels like I have to do something. Of course there is nothing, but to be present, but the feeling persists.
Talk more about how you feel and the central calm gap you can access quite easily. Is there a 'you' in this gap?
Who could achieve anything?
This morning I am slightly ill. Probably built up stress for some time or at least a weak immune system. There is a lethargy that makes doing anything seem almost impossible. The gap is not as easy to access. Stopping, looking out at the day. There is a sense of it, but my body keeps drawing my attention to it. Sore. Cramps. In the gap there isn't a "me", and no there is nothing to be achieved. These days I have been doing more and more to try and bend the world, to shape it into something else than what is - which at his very moment is tainted with a lack of energy and the concern that life is just this, and it feels lacking.

C

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:41 am

Hi Cyberogue,

be easy on yourself, it has been a challenging time.
There is a desire to fix the unfixable, but when someone is in such pain it feels like I have to do something. Of course there is nothing, but to be present, but the feeling persists.
We are human beings and want to alleviate the suffering of another person. I think that is wonderful. The best medicine to alleviate the suffering is another human being, being with us while we are in pain, allowing the pain to be there.
These days I have been doing more and more to try and bend the world, to shape it into something else than what is - which at his very moment is tainted with a lack of energy and the concern that life is just this, and it feels lacking.
Yes, we so much want the world to be...ANYTHING BUT THIS

What if life is just this? Can this moment be any different than what it is?


Sending lot of love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de

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Ghata
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Re: Staying awake

Postby Ghata » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:38 am

Hi Cyberogue,

how is it going?

Sending love,
Ghata
In the seen just the seen. In the heard just the heard.
(Bahiya-Sutta)

http://www.unterwegsmitbuddha.de


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