Couldn't get it, couldn't forget it

[chillyrodent]

Does this nebulous thing need a thought to exist?

Yes.

[CarefulDog88]

Who or what is having the thought that allows the nebulous thing to exist?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Who or what is having the thought that allows the nebulous thing to exist?

Hmm. It seems that "I" am having the thought that allows "it" to exist. So, the marshmallows thing seems like a distraction, a trick. But, thoughts just do thought things - I don't control them.

Could you say more about the question, "Do thoughts think?" please?

I am looking for chances to get intimate and comfortable with sensations in the body, and so have been practicing.

[CarefulDog88]

Do thoughts think?
Is a thought seperate and autonomous?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Do thoughts think?
Is a thought seperate and autonomous?

Thank you.

If Roxanne can't think a thought, how can a thought think itself? Thoughts just arise without a thinker. But, again and still, this is a thought.

If it seems that Roxanne is grabbing a thought (like "does a thought think?") and it gets turned over and over, and is obsessed over, where do I look to "see" that Roxanne is not thinking? And, when I say, "ENOUGH! of this obsession" and I divert my attention, where do I look to "see" that there is no volition, that thoughts arise, and that thoughts about thoughts are just trying to catch up?

I have set aside all spiritual / metaphysical reading for the duration of our time together. Do you think it would help to go back to reading Gateless Gatecrashers? Or ... ? I've been relaxing, I'm just not sure that's getting me anywhere. :D

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

If Roxanne can't think a thought, how can a thought think itself? Thoughts just arise without a thinker. But, again and still, this is a thought.

A Thought is just happening, Roxanne or no Roxanne isn't a thought just arising and passing away. Paul has a thought, the lady down the road has a thought, the man across the street has a thought.

Is a thought Real and experienced?

The same thoughts hold a story, the thoughts Roxanne has, contain a story, The thoughts of Paul and the lady and the man across the road contain stories/content that are all different. Never is a story the exact same story.

Is the the story true for anyone?

Its not getting rid of thought that you are after, it is the illusion of the story that you want to SEE.

Does the story of Roxanne exist in the GAP between thoughts?

If it seems that Roxanne is grabbing a thought (like "does a thought think?") and it gets turned over and over, and is obsessed over, where do I look to "see" that Roxanne is not thinking? And, when I say, "ENOUGH! of this obsession" and I divert my attention, where do I look to "see" that there is no volition, that thoughts arise, and that thoughts about thoughts are just trying to catch up?

You LOOK into your Direct Experience, Your Body. The sensation that feels like the body (the body is a concept), the sensation that's always there, thought no thought, Its always there when you were 1 year old, when you were 5 year old, when you were 30 years old, its always there and always will be.

I have set aside all spiritual / metaphysical reading for the duration of our time together. Do you think it would help to go back to reading Gateless Gatecrashers? Or ... ? I've been relaxing, I'm just not sure that's getting me anywhere. :D

No need to go and read Gateless Gate crashers, If I may suggest, Start again on your own experience. Go back to the beginning of his Thread, page 1 and start there, read your own experience, and repeat the exercises and the questions, you don't have to send anything to me unless you have questions, and sit with a pen and paper or do it on the computer
and just start again. Relax take your time, and see what you notice.

All the exercises and pointings that I'm giving you are pointing to the same thing, they are just different versions.

Direct Experience is where you ask is this true?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

If I may suggest, Start again on your own experience. Go back to the beginning of his Thread, page 1 and start there, read your own experience, and repeat the exercises and the questions, you don't have to send anything to me unless you have questions, and sit with a pen and paper or do it on the computer
and just start again. Relax take your time, and see what you notice.

Okay, thank you.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
How are you going just checking where you are at and if you are ok

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Thank you for checking. I am okay. I have only been looking at sensations in the body without the thought-story. Offering love and thanks to the sensations.

May I tell you what I am noticing? It is perhaps irrelevant, and I don't want to overemphasize "symptoms." However, I'd still like to run them past you. "Symptom" is probably not quite right - so be it.

Beliefs have unspooled. Spiritual beliefs, primarily, but also political, social, personal beliefs. These were thoughts that I placed varying degrees of importance on. I don't miss them - it actually seems quite spacious and free - but it wasn't exactly my intention to drop all opinions. I feel like I could scrape together some ideological preferences if I had to, but I'd rather not.

Also, the body is quite relaxed. I would say it doesn't seem so worried about itself.

I cannot bring myself to go back to the beginning yet, but I haven't forsaken the request.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,

May I tell you what I am noticing?

Absolutely

May I tell you what I am noticing? It is perhaps irrelevant, and I don't want to overemphasize "symptoms." However, I'd still like to run them past you. "Symptom" is probably not quite right - so be it.

It is the noticing that is important, continue to notice.

If the words were taken away, the language removed from the noticing what would there be?

Beliefs have unspooled. Spiritual beliefs, primarily, but also political, social, personal beliefs. These were thoughts that I placed varying degrees of importance on. I don't miss them - it actually seems quite spacious and free - but it wasn't exactly my intention to drop all opinions. I feel like I could scrape together some ideological preferences if I had to, but I'd rather not.

So now you are seeing through the illusion of thought - beliefs (Spiritual, political social and personal) are thought, concepts are thought, labels are thought. It is liberating and as these beliefs start to unravel and fall away, some slowly some faster, the more this freedom starts to be lived.

Also, the body is quite relaxed. I would say it doesn't seem so worried about itself.

You have made a lot of effort to return to the body, as often as possible this is where you stay, in the body, not in the little Marshmallow behind the eyes. :), How would the body worry about itself, there is just body parts.

What was doing the worrying about itself?

I cannot bring myself to go back to the beginning yet, but I haven't forsaken the request.

No need to, if the impulse is there do it, if not don't.

"there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up as you read that sentence?

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

If the words were taken away, the language removed from the noticing what would there be?

Only spaciousness.

What was doing the worrying about itself?

I dunno. The marshmallow, I guess? The thought-stories? The body was not worried about itself, or else it would still be worried.

"there is no separate self in any shape or form and there never was" - what reactions come up as you read that sentence?

I feel bubbly, amused. Spacious.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
Apologies for the delayed reply, the Forum webSite has been hit by AI bots and a lot of mischief was carried out before one of our volunteers managed to get it under control.

Has something changed since the beginning of our dialogue? Please describe as detailed as possible


I f you would like to go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

[chillyrodent]

Hi Paul,

Has something changed since the beginning of our dialogue? Please describe as detailed as possible

Thought has dropped away, although not entirely. Opinions and beliefs have also dropped away. I can revive them for fun, but they are not important. This gives very little to think about, which sometimes seems boring, but also roomy. Worry for the body can arise when physical symptoms arise. Sometimes I feel very aware of "me," and sometimes I can't find me. It feels strange not to have strong beliefs, because they buoyed Roxanne; now there is just curiosity. Sometimes not even curiosity, just indifference. No need to figure anything out. Not much interest in figuring anything out.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

This changes. Sometimes there is no boundary. Sometimes the boundary is my skin.

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

There does seem to be an inside and an outside, at times.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

This chunk that calls itself Roxanne, it seems sometimes to be not included in the whole.

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

At times, there is just witnessing from a clear, open space. At times, it feels like a "me."

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Again, at times it is all just happening. Then thought arises and it feels like things are "being done."

Paul, I won't be concerned if I do not hear from you right away. I see that the website is still having troubles.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne

Opinions and beliefs have also dropped away. I can revive them for fun, but they are not important.

Is there an Opinion, without thought?

Is there a belief without thought?
Do they both require thought to exist?

What is there when no opinion or belief to distract?

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Roxanne,
How are you going, just checking in.