Hellou friends

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WoollyShower
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:30 pm

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
I feel like there is but when I look I cannot find it. So I guess not... So i mean it's not in my direct experience. Or i don't know how would i be looking for it, or could uneven recognise it. So i guess self is an idea, so the content of a thought.. A thought. A sensation.. A movement of the attention.


2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
But who is moving? Is there anything that is doing it? No. It's just happening. But then all these ideas and concepts are all there, so the language is a useful way to referring to the perspective and experience and life. Why would it make a difference if there actually was a self or not. If i try to imagine it there are no images, thoughts or concepts coming about what would it be like to be no self. Then the thought is But I don't know why am I experiencing this if I'm not doing it. Who is doing it? Why do i need the experience of a self, why is it necessary? What purpose does it fulfill?

Is this helpful? Feels a bit like rambling.

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WoollyShower
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Fri Feb 09, 2024 7:30 pm

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
I feel like there is but when I look I cannot find it. So I guess not... So i mean it's not in my direct experience. Or i don't know how would i be looking for it, or could uneven recognise it. So i guess self is an idea, so the content of a thought.. A thought. A sensation.. A movement of the attention.


2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
But who is moving? Is there anything that is doing it? No. It's just happening. But then all these ideas and concepts are all there, so the language is a useful way to referring to the perspective and experience and life. Why would it make a difference if there actually was a self or not. If i try to imagine it there are no images, thoughts or concepts coming about what would it be like to be no self. Then the thought is But I don't know why am I experiencing this if I'm not doing it. Who is doing it? Why do i need the experience of a self, why is it necessary? What purpose does it fulfill?

Is this helpful? Feels a bit like rambling.

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Elad
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby Elad » Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:23 am

Hi Synes, great!

So lets adjust this to the ADHD characteristics you describe:

With the daily point (3), the exercise that is, just do and report on what feels helpful. Only requirement is that if there is an exercise you write some reaction to it. It can even just be to write "I didn't get to it today".

Apart from that the process is going well. The confusion, the questions why am I doing this, what does it mean, what difference does it make are natural. They are like thought debris that is just to be allowed to come and go. Once the realization of no self really hits at heart/gut level, not just on thought level, the liberating ramifications will be self evident.

You did well with the exercise. Those moments where it loosened the identification with "I" was the point. That thoughts quickly find a way to reestablish status q is just the nature of it. We just keep at it and allow the process to move by itself.

Okay, will send you a new exercise a little later.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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WoollyShower
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:29 am

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
No. I mean it feels like there is, but when looking for it in direct experience I cannot find it. Anything that I attend to, whether it is my typing this on my phone or the sensation of my fingers touching the screen or my attention switching to other stuff randomly, there is no doer, no self that is doing it it just happens.

But the sensation of there being a self is very much intact. It's similar to any other feeling > a sensation plus a label. The sensation is mostly different sources of tensing in my body. The thought is something like "here is something compact to hold on to, that's it, no need to investigate further"

There has never been a doer. Things bumping into each other and then there's a thought taking responsibility for it after the fact. But it happens very quickly.

2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
I feel this question is kind of like a rambling corner, so I'm just letting out what comes up, right?

Why is this feeling of selfing and what does it do for me? And what about the whole idea of separateness that is built on top of that, layers and layers. If all of that collapses what is then there still? I'm not scared of it, I'm curious because it's so so vast that i cannot or let's say i do not want to start even thinking about it. There is no point. I want to experience it falling apart. If I take a peek beyond the sense of inadequacy that pervades my life, this immediacy is something that has been with me my whole life and has been eluding me my whole life. I love that you mentioned the heart and the body last time, that it will end by activating the realisation there and not only in the thoughts. That gave me a lot of hope and relaxation. Things are moving on their own. I don't need to try so hard. I can relax and trust more in areas where i didn't even notice i was not trusting before. There is a sense of "mystical" that is only a top layer of I have to be careful now, smells similar to my parents using their intellect to shut me up or make fun of me as a kid. I don't need that.

I have been living inside my head for so much of my life, escaping from pain and rejection and bullying. Dissociation felt always safe. But I cut myself off from direct experience by attending only the thoughts and denying the pain. And I've been trying to get back now longer than I've been in it, but I've been really far gone after highschool. Like standing 5meters behind my body planning out conversations like a chess game: always 8 moves ahead.

What is the meaning of this. That i have some sense of homeness within my thoughts. And my sense of person. Even though it's not a pleasant way to experience life because it's so compressed and small. Ok these are all just thoughts. And now the sense of why am I even trying to express this. Does it matter? Can I do it? Is it possible? Are all potential prerequisites dealt with for this shift to happen?

I know that this is not up to me. I have been following the flows that have been pushing me around and giving me tasks to do and things to learn for the last six years. I have done none of the things. I have detached from ideas of what my life should be like. All the thoughts of "well if this would be true then i would be happy/content/..." I have seen through them long ago and let go of achieving and instead following the resonance of what is presented to me in each moment. There is aloneness, but this is from a lack of trust and deep uncertainty of what i should be doing. And I have gotten much more in touch with my body. I like most of the times it's a dialogue with what my heart resonates with and what my mind deems reasonable. It's more and more like a partnership instead of a dictatorship. So on the small level i am getting there. On the micro level there is still lot of ambition and pressure to force and to do things with force. Using fear or more like some form of tension to follow the thought patterns of what i think I should be doing.

Most of these "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" pretend to come from outside. Hiding behind other people. But I'm noticing faster now that they are not outside me at all. And I'm starting to connect with them and be more friends. But the underlying pattern is still going. There is still a lot of momentum from the decades of relying on this fear based energy to achieve anything.

That's so strange this scam of "i am doing it" > "but i shouldn't be doing it" > "but i don't know how not to do it" > hopelessness, helpnessness, more pressure. Blabla. It's a spiral.

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Elad
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby Elad » Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:41 pm

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
No. I mean it feels like there is, but when looking for it in direct experience I cannot find it. Anything that I attend to, whether it is my typing this on my phone or the sensation of my fingers touching the screen or my attention switching to other stuff randomly, there is no doer, no self that is doing it it just happens.

But the sensation of there being a self is very much intact. It's similar to any other feeling > a sensation plus a label. The sensation is mostly different sources of tensing in my body. The thought is something like "here is something compact to hold on to, that's it, no need to investigate further"

There has never been a doer. Things bumping into each other and then there's a thought taking responsibility for it after the fact. But it happens very quickly.

2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
I feel this question is kind of like a rambling corner, so I'm just letting out what comes up, right?

Why is this feeling of selfing and what does it do for me? And what about the whole idea of separateness that is built on top of that, layers and layers. If all of that collapses what is then there still? I'm not scared of it, I'm curious because it's so so vast that i cannot or let's say i do not want to start even thinking about it. There is no point. I want to experience it falling apart. If I take a peek beyond the sense of inadequacy that pervades my life, this immediacy is something that has been with me my whole life and has been eluding me my whole life. I love that you mentioned the heart and the body last time, that it will end by activating the realisation there and not only in the thoughts. That gave me a lot of hope and relaxation. Things are moving on their own. I don't need to try so hard. I can relax and trust more in areas where i didn't even notice i was not trusting before. There is a sense of "mystical" that is only a top layer of I have to be careful now, smells similar to my parents using their intellect to shut me up or make fun of me as a kid. I don't need that.

I have been living inside my head for so much of my life, escaping from pain and rejection and bullying. Dissociation felt always safe. But I cut myself off from direct experience by attending only the thoughts and denying the pain. And I've been trying to get back now longer than I've been in it, but I've been really far gone after highschool. Like standing 5meters behind my body planning out conversations like a chess game: always 8 moves ahead.

What is the meaning of this. That i have some sense of homeness within my thoughts. And my sense of person. Even though it's not a pleasant way to experience life because it's so compressed and small. Ok these are all just thoughts. And now the sense of why am I even trying to express this. Does it matter? Can I do it? Is it possible? Are all potential prerequisites dealt with for this shift to happen?

I know that this is not up to me. I have been following the flows that have been pushing me around and giving me tasks to do and things to learn for the last six years. I have done none of the things. I have detached from ideas of what my life should be like. All the thoughts of "well if this would be true then i would be happy/content/..." I have seen through them long ago and let go of achieving and instead following the resonance of what is presented to me in each moment. There is aloneness, but this is from a lack of trust and deep uncertainty of what i should be doing. And I have gotten much more in touch with my body. I like most of the times it's a dialogue with what my heart resonates with and what my mind deems reasonable. It's more and more like a partnership instead of a dictatorship. So on the small level i am getting there. On the micro level there is still lot of ambition and pressure to force and to do things with force. Using fear or more like some form of tension to follow the thought patterns of what i think I should be doing.

Most of these "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" pretend to come from outside. Hiding behind other people. But I'm noticing faster now that they are not outside me at all. And I'm starting to connect with them and be more friends. But the underlying pattern is still going. There is still a lot of momentum from the decades of relying on this fear based energy to achieve anything.

That's so strange this scam of "i am doing it" > "but i shouldn't be doing it" > "but i don't know how not to do it" > hopelessness, helpnessness, more pressure. Blabla. It's a spiral.
This is great! Let's keep it up with three daily point's and just keep at it as best you can bringing your HEART and sincerity and unique manifestation to it as best you can.

Play with this exercise today:

Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centred in the head.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head. Before the apple disappears....

...imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away. Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)....

...imagine a 'me' centred in the head. Stay with it...

...imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it... ...imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens. If you feel identification in other body areas try it there also.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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WoollyShower
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:42 pm

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
Today i am aware of some doer that wants to do this process well. And show effort. And that needs to overcome the "lazy" in me. And there is also more anxiety today somehow. I analyse that it's using effort trying to mask my "shortcomings" because its scared... Jeah there is more tension or friction in orienting myself towards this work today for some reason.

But when I'm observing those aspects i do not find a someone that would be controlling this. Or if there is it's not observable to me in direct experience. I can find mostly thoughts mixed with different sensations in the body. Kinda like this cheesy "5D cinema" with the rumbling chairs. Trying to orient or control my attention.

Ok lot of analysing going on, fear... Control.. Still no self. No actual control. Instead sensations, thoughts and some sort of belief maybe tied in with it? What is that? It's very subtle.
2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
Pretty clear. I don't know if 100% but apart from what i wrote above there's nothing else today.

What is the process going from A to B do I need to prepare for it, do i need to do something more something less? Am I doing enough. It's there but it's not really bothering me. But there is a bit of a heavier tension here compared to last days.

What if I'm accidentally faking it. There are so many things where I realise people tell me to do something and i don't understand and i never ask and then do it wrong. Is there something I'm missing?

There is a belief in a self, I can sense it... Is there something i should do with that? Now i read again about what you wrote about bringing the heart into it. Good reminder, thanks.

Feels easier, clearer. There is a lot of tiredness. Welcome tiredness <3

Falling into it and forgetting my heart. Jeah there's confusion also now. Still no self. Just the same game i described above

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Elad
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby Elad » Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:15 am

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
Today i am aware of some doer that wants to do this process well. And show effort. And that needs to overcome the "lazy" in me. And there is also more anxiety today somehow. I analyse that it's using effort trying to mask my "shortcomings" because its scared... Jeah there is more tension or friction in orienting myself towards this work today for some reason.

But when I'm observing those aspects i do not find a someone that would be controlling this. Or if there is it's not observable to me in direct experience. I can find mostly thoughts mixed with different sensations in the body. Kinda like this cheesy "5D cinema" with the rumbling chairs. Trying to orient or control my attention.

Ok lot of analysing going on, fear... Control.. Still no self. No actual control. Instead sensations, thoughts and some sort of belief maybe tied in with it? What is that? It's very subtle.
2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
Pretty clear. I don't know if 100% but apart from what i wrote above there's nothing else today.

What is the process going from A to B do I need to prepare for it, do i need to do something more something less? Am I doing enough. It's there but it's not really bothering me. But there is a bit of a heavier tension here compared to last days.

What if I'm accidentally faking it. There are so many things where I realise people tell me to do something and i don't understand and i never ask and then do it wrong. Is there something I'm missing?

There is a belief in a self, I can sense it... Is there something i should do with that? Now i read again about what you wrote about bringing the heart into it. Good reminder, thanks.

Feels easier, clearer. There is a lot of tiredness. Welcome tiredness <3

Falling into it and forgetting my heart. Jeah there's confusion also now. Still no self. Just the same game i described above

Good you are doing well. Seeing how all this is happening by itself. And good also to feel into how the heart responds to everything. There might be words for it or not.

Reminder to either do the exercise, or write a little comment about the choice not to.

Look forward to hear from you next time.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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WoollyShower
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:23 pm

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
It feels like there is. All my ideas and countless peronalities are built somehow in the belief that there is. And yet somatically it's more like these words. I am not thinking them. I just watch them appear and watch me typing them. It's actually nice because the selfing is less when I do that. And the selfing is painful. It correlates with a sharp unpleasant sensation in my body. Similar to the various patterns of thinking. And a shifting of the attention into something more rigid and dissociated.

Defocusing and watching it just happen allows me to also notice places in my body where I'm holding a lot of tension.

I don't control my attention = "I'm getting distracted" => it happens to me. I'm coming back from being distracted. That's an action. There's a person doing it. But I'm not doing it. It happens, and I maybe notice it happening but i don't do it.
2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
Ok and all these words me my i mine they are useful right? Or are they? I don't know any more. There's so many implications to the self not being true and somehow it feels like this impossible mountain to figure this all out. What would be different and all? I don't wanna even have to think about all the implications. I do not want to think about it. There is an instant deflation and exhaustion, i can't even get up any curiosity to go there or even start checking. Is there a version where i need to do more? I want to do less.

3) I didn't manage to do number 3 today. I'll try again tomorrow.

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WoollyShower
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:30 pm

Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
There is no one controlling or doing.
It feels like there is a controller or some person that things happen to. Like I don't really "do" most of the things throughout the day, and when I do "choose" them, if I actually manage to look a bit closer at what's actually going on I feel tension in my body but no self.
2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
I reread an old post where you write about not needing high concentration but high motivation. And that the ways that this expresses itself is not hindrance but something to show that there is no separate self.
You don't need high concentration ability. You do need high motivitation, humbleness that you might be fundamentally wrong about what the problem is and perserverence in the face of feeling helpless and not knowing and frustrated. All the ways this seems to not work for you are not hindrances, they are more ways it shows that there is no separate self existing and in control. Once you fully accept that this is all ready so, and it is all ready seen, the shift will happen. The signs will be feeling humblness, gratitude and peace, instead of anger, defensiveness and a simutaneous "knowing better" co-existing with a sense of not enoughness and lack.
Do you have some tips how to do this shift of expectation in practice? Like I notice that there is resistance or some sort of restlessness there, with the wish to get this over with. Maybe a bit frustrated? Anyway. Perseverance. Jeah, is there something specific I can do when those come up? I'm currently just hopping around it, but there is a lot of the whole game of "not being good enough" around it, which is not believed but still somehow has a lot of draw in the system.

Like I'm thinking maybe inviting in the frustration and let it pass. Now it's such a quick thing, i don't really know it's annoying me, overwhelming.

Is there something I need to do? Like the thing you wrote recently about "when the heart and the body follow the whole thing will open up and be clearer" and I think i wrote that that calmed me down. That I don't need to do anything or like the process is unfolding on it's own. But there is something to realise or have an insight about, right?

But then if I am more in my heartspace, I notice this fear and pain and I am able to be that with courage. Like there is more spaciousness. The fear invites the courage and love. Jeah so patience and practice I guess?

3) didn't get to the exercise again today. Will try again tomorrow

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Elad
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby Elad » Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:52 pm

"But then if I am more in my heartspace, I notice this fear and pain and I am able to be that with courage. Like there is more spaciousness. The fear invites the courage and love. Jeah so patience and practice I guess?"

That's right. This is good. And now need to figure anything out. You just keep seeing how everything is unchosen and you are not finding anyone behind this. You also experiencing the feelings and resistences that come up in relation to that and that they are not chosen, but just come. At some point it settles down by itself.

The writing is good. As you write be curious about what comes out and be aware that more important than anything that comes out is actually the spontaneous seeing of it and the spontaneous choiceless nature of it.

Most importantly return to the heart.

Read you tomorrow :)
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby Elad » Wed Feb 14, 2024 10:53 pm

now need to figure anything -> *no* need to figure anything
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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Elad
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby Elad » Wed Feb 14, 2024 11:01 pm

Oh and, when you answer the first of the three questions keep it focused on what you can see, what you can find, in direct experience. Not what it can seem like. This is important.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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WoollyShower
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:21 am

Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:12 am

This is from yesterday. I tried to do number 3 but got distracted in the middle and forgot to post it. finished writing it now.
Okay, so every day respond as sincerely and deeply as possible to these three points:
1) Is there a separate self at all, a controller, a doer, has there ever been?
I cannot find a separate self in direct experience. Things appear in direct experience, some are pleasant some are unpleasant. Lot of thoughts. No controller or doer of any of that.
2) Is it 100% clear, if not what is not clear?
My main question is why? Why is there this idea of a self or of me doing something if that's not actually the case?

Why do I keep orienting towards this 'old trick' of self? Why is there so much resistance to actually seeing this - I notice restlessness, impatience in that question.

3) Imagine “me”

Many experience the ‘me’ as being centred in the head.

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head. Before the apple disappears....

...imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away. Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)....

...imagine a 'me' centred in the head. Stay with it...

...imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it... ...imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.

Give it a go, see what happens. If you feel identification in other body areas try it there also.
I'm struggling with imagining things. It usually doesn't come effortless to me (maybe an understatement). A lot of doubt.

But I did it anyway. Different parts of the body. Apple, bird, me, disappearing.

The exercise cuts selfing short. It's useful. But it's really hard to do. Like fully committing to imagining an apple is tough, the bird when it comes is already mid -flight, looping. Then I forget what was the third thing. yes a self. ok, when I get it, it works. but between the tree images it's easy to loose the connection. Oh jeah, at some point I managed to approach the bird in a way that it wouldn't fly away, like a wild animal.

What is helpful is that when I notice selfing I can now do something about it. The imagination technique is maybe not best suited for me, but maybe I'll come up with something else, more somatic.

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Elad
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Re: Hellou friends

Postby Elad » Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:21 pm

Hi good stuff! Re imagination, as before I believe you and I have some similarities, it used to be more that way here also. I would describe it today that the rational/logical part of the mind would try to control and get right the imaginal part and thus stifle it. I found out there is much more imaginal here, once there was more disidentification from thinking/logical certainty. I would not be surprised if the same will open more with you over time.

Now to your question:

"My main question is why? Why is there this idea of a self or of me doing something if that's not actually the case?

Why do I keep orienting towards this 'old trick' of self? Why is there so much resistance to actually seeing this - I notice restlessness, impatience in that question. "


Language operates with subject and object and we need a concept of self, to be able to coordinate relationships and communicate. So we are not looking for the sense of self to go away. Actually you might get healthier sense of self and an increased capacity to see "your" needs and preferences and act accordingly, as a result of this process. All we are looking for, is that it is clearly seen that ultimately, no separate self is underlying or controlling anything, including the unique expression we call Synes. So you can think about Synes and be in touch with the feelings of Synes and act on behalf of synes - conventionally speaking - doing it more easefully and lovingly then before, and at the same time you can sense and see how all of it is ultimately coming from/as mystery.

For today contemplate what I wrote here, and if you can clearly recognize it in direct experience. And if not, what is not clear.
With love,
Elad

Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.

- Kahlil Gibran

One gets there by being there.

- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)

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WoollyShower
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2023 11:21 am

Re: Hellou friends

Postby WoollyShower » Sat Feb 17, 2024 12:08 am

Hi Elad, i didn't write today. Talk to you tomorrow.


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