Hi, guide needed:-)

[The-Song-Of-Me]

So it has no use? You said it was a tool. A tool always has a use. What does this stream of thoughts and labels do?

[PeterCs]

What does this stream of thoughts and labels do?

What do you mean with that question? ...I do not understand it.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

What's their purpose? If they are a tool, what is their use?

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Do you understand what I'm asking you?

For example, would you be able to communicate without thoughts or labels?
Is there anything else that thoughts help with?

[PeterCs]

I see that labels and thoughts make communication easier and they are practical, for example with daily tasks, creating things, planning, solving things/problems... Also they help to try to predict things - what will happen if...; imagine things that are not seen - for example the back side of a monitor; making things to be known.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Peter

That's right, thoughts are a very useful tool.

What else do they do? For example think of memories. Are memories anything other than thoughts?
And if so is there a Past? or are there just thoughts of things that have happened, happening Now and only Now? or in other words, is there anything other than this present moment other than in thought?

imagine things that are not seen - for example the back side of a monitor;

This is a very good point Peter. What do you think the implications of this are in the way we construct reality?

Silvia x

[PeterCs]

Hello Silvia,

I do not know if I see it really clearly or I answer from what I have read/heard: Yes, memories are thoughts that could bring sensations. Yes, there is a past but it is only an imaginary past, only thoughts, stories that is also changing. There is a timeliness "past - now - future", but it is only a thought. Regarding the present moment, there is no time. Only this what is happening right now. Typing is happening. When I say "The typing happend", it is from memory - a thought - an image. When I say "The typing will happen", it is from imagination - a thought - an image. All of this, activity, "seeing the past", "seeing the future" is happening right now. It is clear.

I see that in most cases things happen in a different way that I have thought about them. For example, now imagine the "tomorrow" - how I will wake up, how I will go to work... They are only thoughts, images... It "will" not happen that way "tomorrow". It is sure.

What else do thoughts do? ...I found a lot of judgments happening, for example: "It was quite expensive.", "It is too late.", "I hate that.", "What a wonderful song."... Also it seems that thoughts bring conclusions. "She smiled at me. Something funny must be on my face.", "I think that he thinks, it is a good point.", "I should eat less in order to lose weight." and so on.

Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts...

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for your answers.

Yes, so many thoughts! And they are always happening Now.

How about this question. I'm not sure you've adressed it in your last post.

imagine things that are not seen - for example the back side of a monitor;

This is a very good point Peter. What do you think the implications of this are in the way we construct reality?

It's quite important, because it points to the difference between the reality the mind creates and the Real reality.

For example, look at your computer monitor.
First tell me what your mind says when you look at the monitor.
hen describe to me what you actually see.


So we agree that thoughts are a very useful tool, but do thoughts really "do" anything?

Do thoughts think?

Sending love
Silvia

[PeterCs]

Good morning, Silvia:-)

imagine things that are not seen - for example the back side of a monitor;

This is a very good point Peter. What do you think the implications of this are in the way we construct reality?

It brings a lot of assumptions what is seen, what will happen, how things are… For example to see someone crying. It can be quite easily assumed that something wrong happened to that person. But who knows? …perhaps he/she is crying because of feeling happiness, or only he/she was chopping an onion, …different stories.

For example, look at your computer monitor.
First tell me what your mind says when you look at the monitor.
hen describe to me what you actually see.

It says that monitor is really nice, very good colors, quite big screen. I like it. It brings a good feeling. It automatically labels what is seen and brings the “I” - I see a thing in form of rectangle, different colors and shapes, images, icons, words, light. …but actually what is seen can be described like a single image on a screen (awareness?), like a photo. That image always disappears when eyes get closed or the face turns away.

So we agree that thoughts are a very useful tool, but do thoughts really "do" anything?

Yes, I agree. They do not do anything in reality. They exist, they come and go as reaction, but not moving things from one place to another one. A thought of storm does not make the storm in reality.

Do thoughts think?

No. They seem to be done/finished as they are.

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Peter.

Good answers.

So can you see how much of our so called reality is a thought process based in assumption? If you look carefully around you, you might be shocked at how much of what we think we know is just based on assumption.

Look at one point in your desk, focus on that point, if your eyes shift, just bring them back to that point. what do you see? There is probably a very narrow spot that is in focus, but I bet everything else is out of focus and blurry, and yet the mind fills the gaps of what you don't see in a way that almost makes it seem as if you're seeing not only The Table, but the whole room around you. But what do you see other than blobs of apparent shapes and colors?

Have you ever had direct experience of the table? Or is the table an image in the mind, constructed from a series of direct experiences of certain qualities this object seems to have as it comes in contact with the body?

Silvia x

[PeterCs]

Good morning Silvia,

I looked at one point in my desk, focused on it and saw this: the point I was focused on was visually sharp. Everything else was blurry but still identificable - I mean things quite close to the that point. The things far from it were quite hard to be identificable - visually not sharp at all, but I "knew" what they were because of memory.

Not sure if I have ever had direct experience of the table. When I look at my work desk now, I am seeing a colored flat horizontal surface (a shape) with five legs, a 3D picture. Mind labels it as a "desk/table". When I touch it, there is a body sensation of "touching", but it is the same as if I touched any other object. It is clear there is nothing like "The Table". What we call "a table" could be whatever what has a solid flat surface and a leg/several legs. ...but it does not must be true. Regardless of that, the definition what is a table is enough for communication purposes.

Peter

[PeterCs]

Silvia?

Am I living like in Matrix? Is everything what I experience only like in a dream? I do not have any problem with dreaming, actually I like it, but I am curious... For example, the "aliveness" that is experienced is so big mistery. Is aliveness permanent, never starting, never ending "thing" and birth/death are only absence of memories, thoughts, feelings?

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Peter,

So do you agree that most of what we usually call reality and don't usually question is actually a mental construct?

For example do we really see in 3D? or is perspective learnt? Babies don't have any sense of depth or distance or shape. Can you imagine what it would be like to see like that again? Of course that's not what we're trying to achieve here. But just as an exercise, can you try to look at things and just focus on the most immediate basic visual impression and try to describe what you see? Do you acutally see space and depth and separation? Can you see here and there. Or is seeing just an experience? And within that seeing there seems to be blobs of different colors and shapes that the mind has learnt to separate and classify into objects occupying an apparent space and separate from each other?

Now close your eyes for a few minutes listening to sounds. Do the sounds happen inside or outside? Is there an inside and outside in actual experience, or is it just another (and useful) mental construct?

x

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Regarding your second post,

First of all.. I'm not here to answer your questions, you are! :-)

Also, they are perfectly good questions, but are they useful to our task here? Once you see though the illusion of self, you'll be in a much better position to answer them. What is the ultimate nature aliveness? Great question! but make sure the mind doesn't use it as a distraction to avoid answering, the most important one at the moment. Is there a separate me that operates or witness within aliveness? Or is there just aliveness?

Direct experience cannot be denied. It's real, it's not a dream. To say it's all a dream is an interpretation of direct experience and as such is a mental construct. What is it that cannot be denied direct experience or mental construct?


x

[PeterCs]

Good afternoon, Silvia

So do you agree that most of what we usually call reality and don't usually question is actually a mental construct?

I am getting see it.

...can you try to look at things and just focus on the most immediate basic visual impression and try to describe what you see?

The most immediate basic visual impression is that colors and shapes are seen. It is sure. It is interesting that seeing is happening, but it is not felt physicaly. Of course looking at a thing can give to arise an emotion, but how seeing happens, it is not felt...

Do you acutally see space and depth and separation? Can you see here and there. Or is seeing just an experience? And within that seeing there seems to be blobs of different colors and shapes that the mind has learnt to separate and classify into objects occupying an apparent space and separate from each other?

I am seeing things that are separate from each other, they have different colors, shapes, they are in a space (in a room), some of them are close to me and some of them are far from me. ...it is how I am seeing now.

Do the sounds happen inside or outside? Is there an inside and outside in actual experience, or is it just another (and useful) mental construct?

It is interesting with hearing. It is experienced like there is no head, no inside, no outside. The inside/outside is seen only as a mental construct.

What is it that cannot be denied direct experience or mental construct?

Direct Experience. ...what is happening.

Peter