Is it possible to see this?

[vinceschubert]

While I am having no effect on anything, the belief in me is clearly having an effect on my thoughts and feelings and such.

Great, you are seeing the process.
And can you 'see' that before thoughts = reality, after thoughts = distorted reality (suffering) ?

[xyzzy]

While I am having no effect on anything, the belief in me is clearly having an effect on my thoughts and feelings and such.

Great, you are seeing the process.
And can you 'see' that before thoughts = reality, after thoughts = distorted reality (suffering) ?

I had a realization, or whatever it was, a month or so ago, where I saw that there really are no objects anywhere, and no thoughts are true. I didn't exactly see this, but instead the idea came to me, and it feels true. What it says is that there really are no separate things anywhere, there's just this experience. The mind works by analyzing things, dividing them up into pieces, and so no thoughts are true, because there aren't really any separate things.

From this standpoint, yes, thoughts will always lead to a distorted view of reality.

[vinceschubert]

I didn't exactly see this, but instead the idea came to me, and it feels true.

This IS a SEEing.
Sure it came to you in the form of a thought, but it wasn't arrived at after torturous logic. It was a spontaneous arising of recognition, wasn't it. Am i getting it right?

What it says is that there really are no separate things anywhere, there's just this experience. The mind works by analyzing things, dividing them up into pieces, and so no thoughts are true, because there aren't really any separate things.

Yes, yes. Perfectly said.
Go on... tell more in this. Do you also see how the 'self' is constructed by thoughts and then those thoughts interact with ideas of separate things. It is All thought, all mind, all construct, concept, illusion ?
Can you resonate with this ?

[xyzzy]

I didn't exactly see this, but instead the idea came to me, and it feels true.

This IS a SEEing.
Sure it came to you in the form of a thought, but it wasn't arrived at after torturous logic. It was a spontaneous arising of recognition, wasn't it. Am i getting it right?

Yes, it wasn't a logical conclusion, the idea just appeared to me.

What it says is that there really are no separate things anywhere, there's just this experience. The mind works by analyzing things, dividing them up into pieces, and so no thoughts are true, because there aren't really any separate things.

Yes, yes. Perfectly said.
Go on... tell more in this. Do you also see how the 'self' is constructed by thoughts and then those thoughts interact with ideas of separate things. It is All thought, all mind, all construct, concept, illusion ?
Can you resonate with this ?[/quote]

I was looking at what I said above, that there are no objects anywhere, and then asking myself how I can exist, since I am supposedly some sort of object. The answer is that I'm just a belief, a mental object. I don't exist anywhere else, the mind is the only place I can be.

But a belief isn't alive, a belief can't have experiences. I can't be me and be just a belief.

[vinceschubert]

a belief can't have experiences.

No, but reacting to a belief as if it were true can result in a physical response. Now we are talking experience. The mind/body organism, experiencing. (still no I anywhere...)
Does an experience have any more credibility than a thought ?

[xyzzy]

a belief can't have experiences.

No, but reacting to a belief as if it were true can result in a physical response. Now we are talking experience. The mind/body organism, experiencing. (still no I anywhere...)
Does an experience have any more credibility than a thought ?

Thoughts are part of experience. I'm not sure what you're asking, though.

I'm still seeing that I am just a belief. And not even a true belief, because the belief says that there is an I object which exists outside of the mind, but the mind is the only place that the I exists. But, how to move forward from here?

[vinceschubert]

I'm still seeing that I am just a belief. And not even a true belief, because the belief says that there is an I object which exists outside of the mind, but the mind is the only place that the I exists.

When you say that you are "seeing" that you are just a belief, How do you 'see' it ?
Examine it closely. Is it a belief that you have accepted. Is it a realisation that came to you with an aha! ?

But, how to move forward from here?

There is no "moving forward". This is not something we progress with. We are looking to position you to recognise, to discover something. Things will flow from there. No Doing required.

[xyzzy]

I'm still seeing that I am just a belief. And not even a true belief, because the belief says that there is an I object which exists outside of the mind, but the mind is the only place that the I exists.

When you say that you are "seeing" that you are just a belief, How do you 'see' it ?
Examine it closely. Is it a belief that you have accepted. Is it a realisation that came to you with an aha! ?

I'm not sure. Above, I said, "I was looking at what I said above, that there are no objects anywhere, and then asking myself how I can exist, since I am supposedly some sort of object. The answer is that I'm just a belief, a mental object. I don't exist anywhere else, the mind is the only place I can be". I'm quoting this because I don't really remember it (my memory in certain ways is not good).

It feels true to me to say that I am just a belief.

[vinceschubert]

It feels true to me to say that I am just a belief.

Hmm, it seems here that you have arrived at a logical conclusion that "feels true".
It may be a step, that is, it may be a repositioning of a viewpoint that will facilitate the recognition of the reality behind that, but it isn't SEEing.
Do this; take that feeling (that it is true that self is only a belief) and ask what would be different in your life if you were living each and every moment Knowing that self was only ever the result of thoughts.
How would suffering be different ?
How differently would an insult impact ?
How would the past be viewed ?
What of the future ?
etc, etc.

[xyzzy]

Do this; take that feeling (that it is true that self is only a belief) and ask what would be different in your life if you were living each and every moment Knowing that self was only ever the result of thoughts.
How would suffering be different ?
How differently would an insult impact ?
How would the past be viewed ?
What of the future ?
etc, etc.

If I fully knew that I was only thoughts, that would mean that there is no me. This would change things in various ways which I can't really forsee now. But, it would mean that there would be no need to worry about many of the things that I worry about, and perhaps an insult wouldn't bother me in the way that it does now. I don't really think much about the past, so this wouldn't change much.

[vinceschubert]

If I fully knew that I was only thoughts

Ok, investigate "fully knew"
Would this be belief ?
Would it be a logical conclusion ?
Who is there to Know ?
Where would the knowing be ?
What do you already "fully know" ?
Have you ever fully known something only to UNknow it later ?
Has there ever been anything that knew wasn't true, only to fully know it later ?
What would fully knowing feel like ? (sensations)
Do you think constantly about something that you fully know ? or occasionally ? or never ? or when stimulated ?
Is there emotion attached to fully knowing ?
etc, etc

[xyzzy]

Ok, investigate "fully knew"
Would this be belief ?
Would it be a logical conclusion ?

No.

Who is there to Know ?

There would be no one.

Where would the knowing be ?

Knowing isn't in a location.

What do you already "fully know" ?

Ultimately, the only thing I really know is that this experience exists.

Have you ever fully known something only to UNknow it later ?
Has there ever been anything that knew wasn't true, only to fully know it later ?

Not that I can recall.

What would fully knowing feel like ? (sensations)

I don't know.

Do you think constantly about something that you fully know ? or occasionally ? or never ? or when stimulated ?

Probably not often.

Is there emotion attached to fully knowing ?

I don't know.


I'm not sure what the point was of this list of questions...

[vinceschubert]

I'm not sure what the point was of this list of questions...

Remember, the point of any question i ask is NOT to get an answer. The point is to get you to LOOK at your own experience for recognition of something. To glibly give me short answers makes me wonder if you are serious about this. If you're not burning to get liberated, you might as well just go and watch tv.
Now, tell me what emotions arose when reading the above. (it was a light slap with the zen stick)
The point of the questions was to find out how you know that you know something as opposed to believing it.
So answer me this; Do you KNOW anything ?
If you can find something that you know, then show me how it is different to a belief.

[xyzzy]

I'm not sure what the point was of this list of questions...

Remember, the point of any question i ask is NOT to get an answer. The point is to get you to LOOK at your own experience for recognition of something. To glibly give me short answers makes me wonder if you are serious about this. If you're not burning to get liberated, you might as well just go and watch tv.
Now, tell me what emotions arose when reading the above. (it was a light slap with the zen stick)
The point of the questions was to find out how you know that you know something as opposed to believing it.
So answer me this; Do you KNOW anything ?
If you can find something that you know, then show me how it is different to a belief.

I'm not really emotional about the above, but I think I'm still not getting what you're trying to get at here.

The only thing I really know is that this experience exists. Everything else is beliefs, logical conclusions, memories. You can know that experience is happening because... it's happening right now. It's here.

[vinceschubert]

The only thing I really know is that this experience exists. Everything else is beliefs, logical conclusions, memories. You can know that experience is happening because... it's happening right now. It's here.

THIS IS IT !
To know this, to live this, to experience EVERYTHING from this vantage point, IS IT.
Do you REALLY KNOW ?, or are they just words ?
The evidence isn't in the mind (it will say all sorts of crazy stuff) The evidence is in experiencing.
Because of conditioning you probably wont experience a clean, 100% shift, immediately, but you will have glimpses or snatches of experiencing from this new perspective.
Choice (the illusion of) disappears and you do what is in front of you, what needs to be done, gets done.
What is your experiencing ?