Is it possible to see this?

[xyzzy]

I believe that there is no self, and I am quite convinced intellectually that there is no self, but this hasn't changed the way I feel in any way. Is there some seeing which is different from intellectual understanding?

By the way, I participated in another thread in the one on one forum a month or two ago, and by the end people declared me to be liberated. I definitely was not, as afterwards I realized that I still believed that there was a me which could control my thoughts and so on. I've spent a bunch of time looking at this since then, and some things have changed in terms of my beliefs on all of this, but there is definitely still the experience of there being a me.

It may be that there is nothing else besides intellectual understanding, but then, why call it liberation? So I'll assume there is something more.

[vinceschubert]

Hello Edward, vince here.
Tell me how you will know that you are enlightened ?
What will have more credibility than intellectual understanding ?

[xyzzy]

Hello Edward, vince here.
Tell me how you will know that you are enlightened ?
What will have more credibility than intellectual understanding ?

I don't know about "enlightened", but this board is based on the idea of liberation, which would presumably have some sort of impact on one's life. So I would think that if there is such a thing as liberation, it would mean that I would feel different or experience life differently in some meaningful way. If it's just a piece of information to file away in one's head, which has no effect on anything, then why have this board?

[vinceschubert]

Ok, i was using enlightenment and liberation as 'pointing' to the same (whatever)

t would mean that I would feel different or experience life differently in some meaningful way

Good answer. And from requesting to be unblued, i take it that that wasn't your experiencing ?
It does happen that somebody can SEE it (the self as illusion) then be seduced or bullied into (pretending) forgetting and then behaving 'as if' it was never seen. Thoughts are a product of habit and as such have powerful influence.
There are (at least) two kinds of awakening experience. There is the (less common) one of a huge and amazing sonic boom kind of epiphany, and the most usual one of a more gradual dawning of recognition and realization. This still includes (always) an Aha! phenomenon.
Tell, in your Now experiencing, where do thoughts come from ?

[xyzzy]

Tell, in your Now experiencing, where do thoughts come from ?

Thoughts happen, they don't seem to be coming from anywhere. It seems that I am experiencing thoughts. I don't believe that I am controlling my thoughts. Thoughts feel like they're mine.

[vinceschubert]

Thoughts happen, they don't seem to be coming from anywhere.

Yes, they are not there, then they are there.

Thoughts feel like they're mine.

You say "feel" like they're yours. Is there a sensation that you feel, or is it thoughts that claim ownership ? (after they occur)

[xyzzy]

Thoughts feel like they're mine.

You say "feel" like they're yours. Is there a sensation that you feel, or is it thoughts that claim ownership ? (after they occur)

It's difficult for me to look at thoughts, because looking at them changes them. They slow down and stop when I try to look at them. I'm not exactly sure what I meant when I said the above. But, thoughts are different from, for example, sounds, because thoughts feel like they are part of me, while sounds don't.

It's not really a feeling, I guess, but more of a "knowing". When thoughts are happening, there is not the thought "these are part of me", but they are experienced that way.

[vinceschubert]

thoughts are different from, for example, sounds, because thoughts feel like they are part of me, while sounds don't.

Good, let's hone in a bit more. (experientially)
Find a bell (a cup will do or a brass bowl is excellent) and tap it with a spoon. Listen with eyes closed. Look for the origin of the sound. Does it occur at the object in in the body ?
When you say "part of me" do you mean the mind/body organism ? or are you saying they constitute part of the I ?

[xyzzy]

thoughts are different from, for example, sounds, because thoughts feel like they are part of me, while sounds don't.

Good, let's hone in a bit more. (experientially)
Find a bell (a cup will do or a brass bowl is excellent) and tap it with a spoon. Listen with eyes closed. Look for the origin of the sound. Does it occur at the object in in the body ?
When you say "part of me" do you mean the mind/body organism ? or are you saying they constitute part of the I ?

If I'm looking for the origin of the sound, then it seems to be coming from the object. If I wasn't thinking about it (or if I didn't know where in the room a sound was coming from), the sound would just be here and wouldn't seem to be coming from anywhere.

I was saying that thoughts seem to be part of the I.

[vinceschubert]

If I'm looking for the origin of the sound, then it seems to be coming from the object. If I wasn't thinking about it (or if I didn't know where in the room a sound was coming from), the sound would just be here and wouldn't seem to be coming from anywhere.

So are you saying that because you reason that the struck object is the source of the sound, then it seems to be emanating from it ?
Consider this; Where is the 'dividing line' between the hearer and the heard ? Where does one stop and the other start ?

thoughts seem to be part of the I.

Once again, only reason can lead you to this conclusion. At an experiential level, is this true ? There is awareness of thoughts. They may even seem to be in the head, but how can you say that they have anything to do with this 'I' you talk about ?

[xyzzy]

Consider this; Where is the 'dividing line' between the hearer and the heard ? Where does one stop and the other start ?

In one way, both I and the sound seem to exist within a 3 dimensional space, with me located inside my head and the sound coming from some distance away. In another way, the sound is here, and I am here. There is no dividing line, though, that doesn't make sense.

Once again, only reason can lead you to this conclusion. At an experiential level, is this true ? There is awareness of thoughts. They may even seem to be in the head, but how can you say that they have anything to do with this 'I' you talk about ?

I don't believe that I control my thoughts, but thoughts seem to be expressing beliefs and ideas that are mine, or that I agree with.

[vinceschubert]

There is no dividing line, though, that doesn't make sense.

Excellent and don't worry that it doesn't make sense as it is pure experiencing, outside of the ability of thought to encompass. Good that you were able to 'See' this.
Thought can get a better handle on this if you consider that there is no sound at the bell, there is only vibrating air and even at the ear there is only vibration which is translated into nerve (electrical/chemical) energy. It is only when it reaches the brain that the neuronal stimuli is considered in light of learning etc and experienced as sound. In this way it can be seen that the hearer and the heard are actually one and the same.

but thoughts seem to be expressing beliefs and ideas that are mine, or that I agree with.

Hmm, let me paraphrase you on this; "but thoughts seem to be expressing other thoughts (beliefs) and more thoughts (ideas) that other thoughts are saying that belong to the idea of a me..."
How accurate is each component of this ?

[xyzzy]

but thoughts seem to be expressing beliefs and ideas that are mine, or that I agree with.

Hmm, let me paraphrase you on this; "but thoughts seem to be expressing other thoughts (beliefs) and more thoughts (ideas) that other thoughts are saying that belong to the idea of a me..."
How accurate is each component of this ?

Yes, beliefs and ideas are thoughts, beliefs are thoughts which are thought to be true. Beliefs are different than thoughts, though, in that they continue to exist in the background somewhere even when not being thought about.

It feels as if I agree with certain thoughts and beliefs, but I suppose what's really happening is that there is the thoughts and beliefs are considered to be true, and there's the belief that I am agreeing with them.

[vinceschubert]

Beliefs are different than thoughts, though, in that they continue to exist in the background somewhere even when not being thought about.

Agree, Once a thought is believed (accepted as true by other thoughts) they are stored as unconscious thoughts, and interestingly they are stored in the body and then reacted to without ever having to be made conscious again (though sometimes they do). It is at this point that they are taken as part of an I and identification has occurred.

what's really happening is that there is the thoughts and beliefs are considered to be true,

..by other thoughts ?

and there's the belief that I am agreeing with them.

beliefs being thoughts that have already been agreed with by other thoughts and stored as unconscious (unquestioned) thoughts ?
Hmm, there is still no sign of an I anywhere ?

[xyzzy]

what's really happening is that there is the thoughts and beliefs are considered to be true,

..by other thoughts ?

I'm not sure exactly how it works. Some things are seen as being true or believed as being true, I'm not sure of the mechanics of how this happens. I don't believe that there is a me making it happen, though.

Hmm, there is still no sign of an I anywhere ?

There's nothing but a feeling that there is an I. It feels like someone is here, rather than no one being here. There is probably a belief that there is an I here. There is also a belief that there is no I. I consider the 2nd belief true and the first belief to be false, but that doesn't seem to make the first one go away.