realizing selflessness

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whoknows
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Thu Aug 13, 2026 12:02 am

don’t make “giving up the promised future” another assignment. Hope may continue arising. The issue is only whether its promise—that fulfilment exists somewhere other than THIS—is believed.
I think the promise is often believed.
Can the promised future remain as an attractive thought without becoming evidence that something is missing now?
Hmm . . .
At first, I thought you were implying that this is possible, but then I realized maybe you were implying that it isn’t.
It seems that the promised future is not yet going to cease being an attractive thought to K.
Can it continue to be attractive without being evidence that something’s missing now?
Um . . . It’s hard to see how.
Well, hold on. Finding a promised future attractive might not be evidence that something is actually missing now, but it does at least seem to be evidence that something is felt to be missing now.
Hmm, yeah. The promised future remains attractive because something is felt to be missing now.
that promised future.
Look closely at what this promised future actually promises. Does it appear as a detailed story or image of how life will be—or is it merely an undefined blur labelled “awakening”?
How is the promise experienced? As words or images in thought? As longing, tension or movement in the body? Or is no future presented at all—only a response to vagueness, such as frustration, hope or resignation?
It’s not just an undefined blur labeled “awakening.”
The promised future is imagined as involving less suffering — distinguishing between the “pain” that is inevitable in life and the “suffering” that is added on by thoughts. That’s probably the main thing. (I’m having a thought I had the other day about how the Buddha talked about nirvana mostly in terms of what it’s not. That makes sense to me.)
It is imagined in words and vague images and probably some sensations that are faint and hard to get a grip on.
It is imagined as being a future of more peace and ease and lightness and spaciousness than the present.
It is imagined as involving a shift in the sense of “self” or identity, with less separation perceived between “self” and “not-self,” at least sometimes.
It is imagined as bringing relief from the sense of seeking.
It is imagined as coming with an overall reduction in the nearly constant layer of thoughts evaluating how everything suits the “self.”
So, yeah, I guess that’s a fairly “detailed story or image of how life will be.”
Before examining it, there may seem to be something definite being sought. But when looked at directly, what is the promised future actually made of?
The brain immediately offers what it believes is the “correct” answer: Thoughts.
And then the brain says: Yeah, what of it? Does that make it not “definite”?

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whoknows
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Thu Aug 13, 2026 2:40 am

P.S. When I noticed that my last post was on a new page, I went, “Aw, geez, page 37.” Once when I was looking through the LU archives, I found it distressing that so many of the folks who “graduated” from LU did it in many fewer pages than I have already filled up. Later, it occurred to me that since I often make two or three posts for every one of yours, maybe a more meaningful comparison would be how much time other people took, rather than how many pages. But I’m glad to say that I have managed to restrain myself from checking that.

But anyhow, I want to say once again how very grateful I am for all the time you’re spending guiding me and accompanying me through this, vince.

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whoknows
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Thu Aug 13, 2026 4:33 am

* Correction: Only page 36.

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vinceschubert
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 13, 2026 6:41 am

Yeah, the brain’s “Thoughts—so what?” is entirely fair. Being made of thoughts doesn’t make the promised future foolish or insignificant. Wanting less unnecessary suffering, less seeking and less constant self-evaluation makes complete sense.
And after forty years of pursuing that change without the decisive result it seemed to promise, being told, “It’s only thought,” could feel glib—even cruel. Poor K is tired. This has seemed endlessly close and endlessly out of reach.
The point isn’t to dismiss the imagined future. It’s to notice how a reasonable preference quietly becomes a verdict:
Less suffering would be welcome becomes something is missing now becomes K must reach that future before life can be okay.
So, just here: without comparing this moment with that imagined future, is anything actually absent—or are there sensations, longing and thoughts saying that something is absent?
I’m having a thought I had the other day about how the Buddha talked about nirvana mostly in terms of what it’s not. That makes sense to me.
Yes. Nirvana is often described as the cessation of grasping, hatred and delusion—because positive descriptions invite thought to manufacture another desirable destination.
But mind can still turn “absence of suffering” into a glowing future state.
Right now, when the demand for this moment to be different briefly drops, is anything new added—or is some struggle simply absent?
It seems that the promised future is not yet going to cease being an attractive thought to K.
Of course. After forty years, that future is deeply conditioned as hope, purpose and rescue. It needn’t stop being attractive.
Attraction isn’t the problem; treating the attraction as proof that THIS is deficient creates the bind.
When the promised future appears, does attraction itself hurt—or does suffering begin when thought says, “Therefore, this moment isn’t enough”?
What if the promised future is this moment looked at differently? not different circumstances, but THIS no longer interpreted as happening to a deficient self who must escape it.
Then the future isn’t elsewhere. The different seeing is glimpsed whenever commentary, resistance and seeking are recognised as part of THIS—not as verdicts upon it.
Right now, what changes if “This should be different” is included in the moment rather than believed as an authoritative description of it?
The promised future is imagined as involving less suffering
Right now, as you read this, is there suffering?

vince
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Thu Aug 13, 2026 2:19 pm

So, just here: without comparing this moment with that imagined future, is anything actually absent—or are there sensations, longing and thoughts saying that something is absent?
I had gotten started on my editing work for the day (finishing up a task I’d started yesterday) and then took a break to start responding to your message before I leave the house to get serious about work. And at this moment, peace and contentment are absent! I feel like shit. A whole lot a new rules and exceptions to rules just got added to what was already a tedious and painstaking part of my job, and I have a lot of editing work to do in the next week, when I’d really like to be working on getting my fall class ready, which will also take a lot of time and effort.

Was going to start doing a “what’s actually here” list, but I don’t feel like I have time for this and for more sobbing right now, so I’ll be back later . . .

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Aug 13, 2026 2:47 pm

Then skip the list. Inquiry doesn’t outrank the practical situation. New rules, tedious editing and competing deadlines genuinely feel awful. Seeing differently does not require peace or contentment to be present.

Do the next clearly bounded piece of editing, then the next. Sobbing and investigation can wait.

Can this simply be a difficult morning—without becoming evidence that something is wrong with K or that the Inquiry isn’t working?
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Thu Aug 13, 2026 4:27 pm

Thank you for your late-night response to my distressed message.
Seeing differently does not require peace or contentment to be present.
That makes sense theoretically, but I’m not entirely getting it as a lived reality.
Can this simply be a difficult morning—without becoming evidence that something is wrong with K or that the Inquiry isn’t working?
Yeah, maybe.

Just had a long conversation with spouse, who knows how distressed I’ve been about my work and saw that it was particularly bad this morning, and he suggested specific ways for us to get by without some or all of my editing income. So I will complete the current job (due in a week) but will tell my boss that I won’t be able to continue with the part of my job that involves reviewing other editors’ work and that I hope the guy who filled in for me for the past month while I was teaching summer school will be glad to permanently take on that extra responsibility, with a nice little bit of extra income. But I’ll keep on doing some editing, at least for now, and see how that goes.

This all feels good and right. And it's wonderful to have a spouse who understands me so well and wants to figure out how I can be happier, even when that involves some sacrifice.

Something interesting I’ve noticed in the past couple of years is that when I’m doing more meditation — and I think whatever we’re doing here fits into the same slot — I find it easier to say no to things I should say no to. Spouse has been intensifying his own practice lately (perhaps partially due to synergy with mine), and I think the same goes for him. We were able more quickly and easily to figure out what needs to be done and decide to take care of it, despite the challenges.

(When I teach Zen, there are often be students who interpret it as fatalistic or passive about dealing with the world or oneself, and I’ve been trying to make a point of telling them that it doesn’t just make it easier to accept things as they are; it also, interestingly, makes it easier to act decisively to change things or say no to things, when that’s appropriate.)

By the way, sorry to keep saying “whatever we’re doing here,” but I don’t know what to call it, and I’m still not entirely sure what it is. Maybe I’ll say “LU inquiry”?

So, returning to this question:
Can this simply be a difficult morning—without becoming evidence that something is wrong with K or that the Inquiry isn’t working?
Dealing with a difficult situation relatively promptly and in a suitable way seems like evidence that my LU inquiry is working and that K is functioning better.

NOW getting back to work . . .

(Still planning to return later to your earlier message.)

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whoknows
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Thu Aug 13, 2026 11:06 pm

OK, back to your earlier message:

And after forty years of pursuing that change without the decisive result it seemed to promise, being told, “It’s only thought,” could feel glib—even cruel. Poor K is tired. This has seemed endlessly close and endlessly out of reach.
Just to clarify a biographical detail (I’m not sure why, but I want to):
After about three years of serious exploration and practice of Buddhism in my early twenties, I crashed and burned, recognizing the problem inherent in willfully practicing in order to make myself willing for reality to be as it is. Over the years, I made various failed attempts to reengage with practice in a sustained way (and wrote a book and a dissertation on Zen and taught Zen practice to beginners), but it has only been in the past several years that I’ve felt like I’m back on the path. So in a way, it’s not quite so bad as it sounds, given that I haven’t spent this whole forty years thinking I was going to get anywhere with this. But in another way, it really is that bad, since I’ve spent that whole forty years submerged in awareness of duhkha while knowing that there’s supposedly a way out but, for most of that time, not feeling like I had a clue about how to approach that.

The point isn’t to dismiss the imagined future. It’s to notice how a reasonable preference quietly becomes a verdict:
Less suffering would be welcome becomes something is missing now becomes K must reach that future before life can be okay.
Yep, I’ve spent a lot of time feeling like only that future life is okay, and I still spend too much time feeling like that, but admittedly, it’s been easing a bit. Or anyhow, I’ve been spending less of my time feeling like life is torture.
So, just here: without comparing this moment with that imagined future, is anything actually absent—or are there sensations, longing and thoughts saying that something is absent?
At this exact moment, I feel a lot less horrible than I did when I responded to this question earlier today. There are sensations of crying being held at bay (lump in throat, tears pooling in eyes, constriction of breathing, tension in jaw, tightness in chest), and there are plenty of vague sorts of thoughts of . . . No, wait, you said, “without comparing this moment with that imagined future,” which I think is what I was about to do. I don’t know. Other than those thoughts, I guess there are fuzzy, emotionally-laden thoughts along the lines of “I don’t like this!” or “I want things to be different!”
But mind can still turn “absence of suffering” into a glowing future state.
Yes, definitely.
Right now, when the demand for this moment to be different briefly drops, is anything new added—or is some struggle simply absent?
Um . . . “When” that demand drops? . . . I’m not noticing that demand dropping. Might have to come back to this.
But theoretically speaking, sure, when the demand for the moment to be different drops, what happens is not that anything new has been added but that some struggle has been dropped.
When the promised future appears, does attraction itself hurt—or does suffering begin when thought says, “Therefore, this moment isn’t enough”?
The latter.
What if the promised future is this moment looked at differently? not different circumstances, but THIS no longer interpreted as happening to a deficient self who must escape it.
Then the future isn’t elsewhere.
Well, yeah, this is exactly where I’ve been stuck for much of the past forty years: longing not for different circumstances (even though sometimes I actually should’ve been working on changing my circumstances) but for a different view of the circumstances. But that different way of viewing does not seem to be present; it seems to be in the future.

So I’ve just understood the present deficiency as very subtle and rarefied. Nothing needs to be escaped except my deficiency in perspective. And I’m well aware that this is the same structure, with the same problem (I think), as if I thought I needed to be richer or healthier or to have a better job or a nicer house. But I don’t know how to get out of it!!!

But you’re trying hard to tell me, and I’m trying hard to listen . . .
The different seeing is glimpsed whenever commentary, resistance and seeking are recognised as part of THIS—not as verdicts upon it.
Right now, what changes if “This should be different” is included in the moment rather than believed as an authoritative description of it?
This is promising (thus, put in purple for easy reference).

Let’s give this a try:
Ahhh . . . okay, THIS.

Well, I get a little flicker of its being possible that the sensations of crying being held at bay and the thoughts of “This should be different!” could all be seen as part of THIS, rather than as judgments of it.

The promised future is imagined as involving less suffering
Right now, as you read this, is there suffering?
Yes.

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby vinceschubert » Fri Aug 14, 2026 2:31 pm

I get a little flicker of its being possible that the sensations of crying being held at bay and the thoughts of “This should be different!” could all be seen as part of THIS, rather than as judgments of it.
That can deepen. Not by working on it, but by recognising it when it happens. ..and by being open to the likelihood that it happens more often than you realize.

v
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Fri Aug 14, 2026 9:52 pm

I'd gotten under way this morning on my overload of tedious, alienating editing work and didn’t want to get sidetracked, so for perhaps the first time ever, I didn’t look at your new message immediately upon seeing the notification. I thought of this mainly as admirable self-restraint, but it occurred to me later that it might also be evidence of a decreasing sense of desperation around “awakening.” Or maybe not.

I spent at least half of my afternoon sitting period settling down in body and mind, including trying out various things to "do" during the sit. I eventually settled on what I summarized for myself as "relaxing into THIS," which seemed good. I noticed that I was feeling basically fine and wasn't getting caught up in emotion-laden thoughts about my work. And I thought of Zen teacher Joko Beck's idea that sitting is essentially "simplified space." So, okay, I felt basically fine when all I was doing was sitting in a pleasant space, relatively comfortably, with nothing required of me except to stay there. But it would be more noteworthy if I could "relax into THIS" later on when I'm doing another session of work of a sort that I've come to dislike so much that I'm planning not to do it anymore after this project is done.

I had a very unpleasant morning of work but took care of myself by making an arrangement with my boss to have someone else take over a part of the project that was turning out to be much more time-consuming (and annoying) than expected. (Haven't told him yet that I don't want to do this stuff anymore.)

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Sat Aug 15, 2026 2:36 am

P.S. After dinner, I realized that while I was doing another hour and a half of editing work this evening, I'd forgotten about my idea of noticing what it would be like to try "relaxing into THIS" while doing yucky work, as opposed to during meditation time. But then I realized that I didn't have a particularly hard time getting that work done and, perhaps because of that, wasn't inspired to wonder if I could "practice with it."

It then occurred to me that having a fairly easy time working this evening could be a direct result of my brain getting rewired, or it could be a result of taking care of myself in ways I needed to, which, in turn, is perhaps a result of my brain getting rewired. Or maybe it's unrelated or there isn't even any brain rewiring going on, but if so, it's still interesting that all of this occurred to me.

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Sun Aug 16, 2026 4:52 am

Nothing much to report today.

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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Aug 16, 2026 10:02 am

Hi K. i was working on this story toay & it seemed appropriate.
I noticed that I was feeling basically fine and wasn't getting caught up in emotion-laden thoughts about my work
Story: NOTHING SPECIAL HAPPENED TODAY

This theme is very clean: ordinary life continues—walking the dog, eating, showering, getting dressed—and there is no requirement to keep checking whether awakening is present. Harmless stories and practical thought continue too; the issue is not thought itself, but when certain stories create suffering or turn ordinary experience into something about “me.”

SONG: NOTHING SPECIAL TODAY https://soundcloud.com/vince-schubert-1 ... cial-today

Daniel arrived at Elias’s house looking disappointed.
Not devastated.
Not anxious.
Not confused.
Just disappointed.
Elias noticed immediately.
“That looks serious.”
Daniel sat down.
“I don't think anything is happening.”
Naomi looked up from the floor where Bracken was stretched across her legs.
“Anything at all?”
“You know what I mean.”
Clara came in carrying a bowl of fruit.
“Did gravity stop?”
“No.”
“Heart still beating?”
“Yes.”
“Coffee still working?”
“Mostly.”
“Sounds promising.”
Daniel ignored her.
“I mean awakening.”
Elias sat opposite him.
“What about it?”
“I haven't thought about it much this week.”
“Congratulations.”
Daniel frowned.
“I knew you'd say that.”

He had expected awakening to become increasingly obvious.
Not necessarily dramatic.
He had given up on dramatic.
Mostly.
But he imagined there would be a growing background certainty.
A quiet knowing.
Something continually present saying:
Yes. This is it.
Maybe not words.
More like a permanent internal watermark:
AWAKE.
Instead, Wednesday had involved taking the rubbish out.
Thursday he had bought socks.
Friday he became annoyed because someone parked across his driveway.
Saturday he spent twenty minutes comparing vacuum cleaners online.
Sunday he forgot completely about awakening until he was cleaning toothpaste from the bathroom sink.
Daniel said, “That can't be it.”
Elias smiled.
“Why not?”
“Because it feels so ordinary.”
“There’s your evidence.”

Naomi scratched Bracken behind the ears.
“I had the same thing.”
Daniel turned to her.
“When?”
“A few months ago. I realised I had gone almost the whole day without thinking about awakening.”
“And?”
“I panicked.”
Clara laughed.
“Of course.”
“I thought I'd lost something.”
Elias said, “What had you been doing?”
“Walking Bracken. Shopping. Making lunch. Answering messages. Watching something stupid.”
Daniel said, “Exactly.”
Naomi nodded.
“And I thought, surely if this is real, I should notice it.”
“Notice what?” Elias asked.
She had no answer.

Daniel did.
“The absence of self.”
Elias raised an eyebrow.
“So while brushing your teeth you should periodically think:
No separate self is brushing these teeth.”
Daniel smiled despite himself.
“Not exactly.”
“While driving?”
“No.”
No controller is changing gears.
“Stop.”
“While going to the toilet?”
Clara nearly dropped the fruit bowl.
“Please don't.”

They laughed.
Then Elias said, “Seriously. What would continuous recognition look like?”
Daniel tried.
“Maybe a constant sense that everything is just happening.”
“And would that sense itself be an experience?”
“Yes.”
“Could it come and go?”
“Presumably.”
“So now you've made awakening into another state to monitor.”
Daniel leaned back.
“Damn.”

There had been a time when Daniel monitored everything.
Thought.
Breathing.
Contraction.
Ownership language.
Decision-making.
The sense of centre.
He could be washing a cup and suddenly ask:
Who is washing?
Then:
Is there a washer?
Then:
Was that question itself chosen?
This had been useful.
Sometimes very useful.
It exposed assumptions he had never previously examined.
But lately something else was happening.
He washed the cup.
That was all.
And the seeker thought this meant nothing was happening.

Elias said, “When you learned to drive, did you think about driving constantly?”
“Yes.”
“Hands at ten and two?”
“Yes.”
“Mirrors?”
“Yes.”
“Clutch?”
“Yes.”
“Gear?”
“Yes.”
“And now?”
“I get in and drive.”
“Have you become worse?”
“No.”
“So why would familiarity always feel like increased conscious monitoring?”
Daniel considered this.
The thought was so obvious that he had missed it:
If awakening is becoming established, I should notice it more.
Maybe the opposite could happen.
Not because awakening disappeared.
Because the need to keep referencing it weakened.

Clara sat down.
“I think there's a spiritual version of checking your pulse.”
Daniel looked at her.
“What?”
“You keep asking, ‘Am I awake now?’”
“Yes.”
“Then again five minutes later.”
“Yes.”
“And if you forget to check for an hour, you think you're unconscious.”
Naomi laughed.
“That’s exactly it.”

Bracken got up.
Walked to the kitchen.
Drank water.
Came back.
Turned three times.
Lay down.
Nobody asked whether Bracken had remained sufficiently present while drinking.
Nobody asked whether the absence of a separate Bracken had been recognised.
Nobody congratulated him for non-doing.
He simply resumed sleeping.
Daniel watched him.
“I hate when the dog wins the argument.”
“He usually does,” Elias said.

The next week Daniel began noticing how much ordinary thought continued.
Making breakfast:
Need more coffee.
Walking outside:
Looks like rain.
Driving:
Take the next left.
At the supermarket:
We already have onions.
None of these thoughts caused a problem.
They appeared.
Sometimes action followed.
Sometimes not.
Then a different kind of thought:
You were rude yesterday.
Immediate contraction.
Then:
People probably think you're difficult.
More contraction.
Then:
Why do you always do this?
There was the familiar shift.
Thought had moved from navigation into identity.
Daniel told Elias.
“So some thought is fine and some isn't?”
Elias shook his head.
“I wouldn't make another law.”
“Then what?”
“Notice consequences.”

The thought:
Buy milk
might be conceptual.
It referred to a future action.
But who cared?
The story was useful.
The thought:
I need to leave by four
was also a story.
The future did not exist as an actual event yet.
Still useful.
The thought:
Clara looked tired yesterday
was memory.
Also fine.
The problem was not that thought referred to things not currently present.
Human functioning depended on that capacity.
The trouble began when Daniel developed the idea:
Awakening means I should live only in direct experiencing and avoid conceptual thought.
Now thought itself had become evidence of failure.

Clara said, “That sounds exhausting.”
“It was.”
“How did you cook?”
“Badly.”
Naomi laughed.
Daniel continued.
“I'd be chopping vegetables and notice that I was planning the next step.”
“And then?”
“I'd think, planning is thought. Come back to sensation.”
Clara stared at him.
“So you'd stop thinking about dinner while making dinner?”
“Yes.”
“That may explain the food.”

Elias smiled.
“Conventional thought is incredibly useful.”
“Yes.”
“Memory.”
“Yes.”
“Planning.”
“Yes.”
“Language.”
“Yes.”
“Imagining possibilities.”
“Yes.”
“None requires a separate thinker.”
Daniel nodded.
That was the cleaner distinction.
Thought happening did not prove thinker.
Planning happening did not prove planner.
A story appearing did not prove storyteller.
The practical function could continue after ownership was questioned.

For a while Daniel had been treating story as contamination.
Actual:
sound.
colour.
sensation.
Conceptual:
danger.
He had tried to stay on the actual side.
But this produced another strange split.
The mind that said:
Stay with actual experience
was itself thought.
The instruction against story was a story.
Then the story:
Thought should not be happening
created far more suffering than most of the thoughts it was policing.
Daniel laughed when he saw it.
The thought police were also thoughts.

One afternoon Naomi came to Elias’s house angry.
Not spiritually angry.
Ordinarily angry.
Her neighbour had been using power tools for hours.
“I hate him.”
Elias said, “Okay.”
“I know I don't really hate him.”
“Okay.”
“I know there's no separate person—”
“Stop.”
Naomi looked surprised.
“What?”
“You're annoyed by the noise.”
“Yes.”
“So be annoyed by the noise.”
She stared at him.
“That's allowed?”
“Who exactly is issuing permits?”
Clara laughed.

Naomi sat down.
The power tools were not there now.
But the memory was.
The irritation remained in the body.
Thought:
He is so inconsiderate.
Another:
I wish he'd move.
Another:
I shouldn't be this angry about a drill.
That last one hurt more than the others.
She saw it.
Not dramatically.
No release.
But it became obvious that the awakening standard had arrived after the irritation and added a moral verdict.
She said, “I turned being annoyed into evidence.”
“Yes.”
“Evidence that I'm still identified.”
“Yes.”
“Instead of just being annoyed.”
“Exactly.”
Naomi sighed.
“That is so ordinary.”
Elias smiled.
“Yes.”

The ordinariness became increasingly funny.
Clara sometimes felt jealous.
Daniel sometimes became defensive.
Naomi sometimes cried.
Elias sometimes mislaid his glasses while they were on his head.
Awakening did not eliminate incompetence.
Or temperament.
Or preferences.
Or the peculiar human ability to walk into a room and forget why.
The group gradually became less interested in turning each event into a spiritual report.

One morning Daniel sent Elias a message:
Had strong contraction after conversation with colleague. Saw ownership story. Returned to bodily sensations. Then recognised identification with narrative and—
He stopped.
Read it.
Deleted the whole thing.
Typed:
Got annoyed at work today. Fine now.
Then he laughed.
Not because the longer account was wrong.
Sometimes that level of detail was useful.
But something in him had wanted every Tuesday afternoon to become documentation of awakening.
He sent the shorter message.
Elias replied:
Good.
Daniel was slightly offended by how little interest Elias showed.
That passed too.

A few days later Daniel was walking along the river.
Cold morning.
Birds in the reeds.
A cyclist passed.
Thought:
This is peaceful.
Then:
I'm really present right now.
Then:
Maybe this is what integration feels like.
He stopped.
Not physically.
The mental movement became visible.
A nice walk had become a progress report in three sentences.
Daniel smiled.
The thought was harmless.
He didn't need to stop it.
He didn't need to say:
Just walking.
That would be another correction.
So the walk continued.
With commentary.
Then without.
Then planning lunch.
Then a memory.
Then the river again.
No state maintained.

That was perhaps the strangest discovery.
Awakening did not require preserving a special relationship with experiencing.
There could be:
absorbed thinking.
planning.
daydreaming.
memory.
story.
conversation.
imagination.
All of it happened now.
If suffering appeared, the story producing or amplifying it could be looked at.
If not, why create a problem?

Daniel brought this to the group.
“So we don't need to be present all the time.”
Elias smiled.
“Where would you go?”
“You know what I mean.”
“I do.”
Daniel continued.
“I mean the state people call presence.”
“Fine.”
“I don't need to maintain it.”
“No.”
“And if I'm completely absorbed in planning a holiday?”
“Plan the holiday.”
“And if I'm reading a novel?”
“Read.”
“And if I'm watching a film?”
“Watch.”
“And if I'm lost in thought?”
“Depends.”
“On?”
“Are you suffering?”
Daniel paused.
“That simple?”
“Sometimes.”

Clara said, “So there's nothing wrong with being lost in a story.”
“Not inherently.”
She held up the novel beside her.
“I hope not.”
Naomi laughed.
Clara continued.
“If I'm crying because a fictional character dies?”
“Cry.”
“If I know they're fictional?”
“Yes.”
“So the issue isn't fiction.”
“No.”
“It’s when fiction is taken as unquestioned actuality?”
Elias nodded.
“And especially when the story builds and defends the imagined self.”
Daniel said, “So I can watch a film without continually reminding myself none of it is real.”
“Please do.”

This delighted Clara.
She had secretly feared that awakening might ruin stories.
Books.
Films.
Memory.
Anticipation.
Fantasy.
But the opposite seemed possible.
A story could be enjoyed more freely when it did not have to pretend to be fact.
Conventional reality remained available.
It just did not need metaphysical promotion.

Months passed.
There was no ceremony.
No moment when everyone agreed:
Daniel is now ordinary enough.
One morning he woke.
Showered.
Got dressed.
Burned toast.
Swore.
Fed the neighbour's cat by mistake because it had wandered inside.
Answered two emails.
Ignored another.
Worked for a few hours.
Made lunch.
Thought about a conversation from twenty years ago.
Forgot it.
Walked to the shops.
Bought milk.
Forgot the thing he had actually gone for.
Came home.
Took another walk.
Later he realised:
He had not thought about awakening once.
This time there was no panic.
The thought:
I haven't thought about awakening all day
appeared.
Then:
Interesting.
Then something about dinner.

That evening he sat at Elias’s table.
Naomi asked, “Anything to report?”
Daniel thought.
“No.”
Elias smiled.
“Excellent.”
“Actually, I bought milk twice.”
Clara said, “Deep integration.”
They laughed.
Bracken slept beneath the table.
Elias reached down and scratched his head.
Daniel looked around.
Nothing special was happening.
And, increasingly, nothing special needed to.

INVESTIGATION: AWAKENING BECOMES WONDERFULLY ORDINARY
A common expectation is that awakening should become a continuous conscious state.
Some ongoing recognition:
I am awake.
There is no self.
Everything is just happening.
But why would that need to be continually thought or felt?
Ordinary functioning does not require constant commentary about its own functioning.
1. Recognition and remembering are different
A person can understand that the earth rotates without thinking about planetary rotation while making breakfast.
Likewise, recognition concerning self does not need constant rehearsal.
The absence of the thought:
there is no separate self
does not imply the return of a separate self.
It may simply mean the organism is busy making breakfast.
2. Awakening need not become a background state
The seeker may imagine:
a permanent spaciousness,
continuous presence,
constant selflessness,
an unbroken sense that everything is happening by itself.
These are still imagined experiences.
If awakening depends upon maintaining one, monitoring begins.
Then:
Is it still here?
Did I lose it?
Why am I thinking so much today?
The supposed awakening state becomes another object of control.
3. Ordinary functioning does not continually reference itself
Driving becomes ordinary.
Walking becomes ordinary.
Language becomes ordinary.
Skill often becomes less self-conscious as it becomes familiar.
So it is at least plausible that integration may feel less like:
I am continually noticing awakening
and more like:
awakening has stopped needing to be thought about.
4. The seeker expects significance
Seeking is organised around importance.
Awakening is important.
Practice is important.
Insight is important.
Progress is important.
Then suddenly:
washing dishes.
Buying milk.
Walking the dog.
This can feel anticlimactic.
The seeker asks:
Surely there should be more than this.
That question may be precisely what keeps overlooking this.
5. Thought continues because thought is useful
Thought is not an enemy of awakening.
Thought enables:
planning,
memory,
language,
prediction,
problem-solving,
imagination,
social coordination.
A thought such as:
Take an umbrella
is conceptual.
Good.
It may be useful.
No liberation is gained by refusing to think because thinking is not “direct.”
6. Story is not the enemy either
Human life contains stories constantly.
What happened yesterday.
What may happen tomorrow.
What someone meant.
What to cook.
How to get somewhere.
A novel.
A joke.
A plan.
The question is not:
Is this story?
The more useful question is:
What relationship is happening with this story?
7. Harmless stories do not require escape
Imagine reading a novel.
You may become completely absorbed.
For ten minutes the fictional world matters deeply.
Nothing is wrong.
You do not need to interrupt every page with:
This is merely conceptual content arising now.
That would be absurd.
Likewise, ordinary daydreaming or planning is not automatically misidentification.
8. When does story matter?
A story becomes especially worth examining when it produces or amplifies suffering.
Examples:
I am a failure.
They don't respect me.
I should be further along.
Awake people don't get angry.
This anxiety means something is wrong with me.
The issue is not conceptuality.
It is the authority and meaning given to the story.
9. Thought can refer to “me” conventionally without creating a metaphysical self
I need to leave at four.
Perfectly functional.
I forgot the milk.
Fine.
Language uses personal pronouns.
No need to perform awakening by avoiding ordinary speech.
The word I is not a metaphysical claim every time it appears.
10. Avoid the thought police
A common intermediate stage is:
Thought appeared.
Bad.
Come back to sensation.
Another thought.
Bad.
Return to present experience.
Now the organism is fighting one of its own normal capacities.
Notice the irony:
Thought should stop
is itself thought.
11. The present includes thought
A memory is happening now.
Planning is happening now.
Imagining next week is happening now.
The content may concern past or future, but the thought-event is present.
Nothing has stepped outside experiencing.
This removes the need to keep forcing attention back to some supposedly purer present.
12. Presence can become another role
The spiritual character tries to look:
calm,
slow,
unhurried,
continually receptive,
never lost in thought.
But an organism may sometimes be:
busy,
absorbed,
excited,
planning,
arguing,
laughing,
reading.
There is no awakened performance required.
13. Ordinary irritation remains ordinary
A neighbour drills.
Irritation arises.
The awakening problem begins when thought adds:
I should not be irritated.
or:
This proves I'm still identified.
Now ordinary reactivity has become spiritual evidence.
Without that verdict:
noise,
irritation,
perhaps practical action.
Enough.
14. Awakening does not erase personality
Preferences remain.
Habits remain.
Humour remains.
Forgetfulness remains.
Someone may still dislike crowds.
Another may still overanalyse.
Another may still cry easily.
No-self does not produce generic people.
Particular organisms continue.
15. The ordinary may initially feel disappointing
Seeking promises a transformation important enough to justify years of searching.
So:
ordinary life
can sound like a bad return on investment.
But what was the imagined alternative?
Permanent transcendence?
Continuous bliss?
A special identity?
The disappointment can expose what awakening was expected to provide.
16. No spiritual report required
A contraction happens.
It passes.
Does it need documentation?
A pleasant state arises.
Does it need interpretation?
Sometimes Inquiry is useful.
Sometimes the cleanest continuation is:
make lunch.
The absence of analysis is not unconsciousness.
17. Forgetting awakening may be healthy
Consider the possibility:
Hours pass without thinking about awakening.
Is something missing?
Or has the subject simply ceased to demand continual attention?
The seeker thinks awakening must stay interesting.
Ordinary life has no such requirement.
18. The paradox of integration
Early recognition may involve intense observation:
thought,
self-reference,
control,
body sensations.
Later these investigations may become less prominent.
Not because they failed.
Because the mechanism is familiar.
The training wheels are not worshipped after the bicycle becomes ordinary.
19. But ordinariness is not another goal
Do not now attempt to:
be ordinary,
stop thinking about awakening,
avoid Inquiry,
act natural.
That would create another awakened performance.
If fascination with awakening appears, that's what appears.
If it disappears, that disappears.
No correct amount of spiritual interest exists.
20. Deepening Inquiry: The Awake Person
Complete this sentence:
If I were truly awake, throughout the day I would…
What appears?
Notice thoughts such as:
remember awakening,
remain present,
stay calm,
see thoughts as thoughts,
not get lost,
feel openness.
Where did this picture come from?
Can that imaginary person actually be found?
21. Deepening Inquiry: Harmless Story
Notice the next ordinary thought.
Perhaps:
I need coffee.
Do not classify it as good or bad.
Ask:
Is there suffering here?
If not, what problem requires correction?
Then notice a self-referential story that does create contraction.
Compare.
What changed?
Not the fact that thought happened.
The relationship and meaning changed.
22. Deepening Inquiry: Forgetting
Spend an ordinary period doing something absorbing.
Cooking.
Gardening.
Walking.
Watching a film.
If later the thought appears:
I forgot all about awakening
ask:
What exactly was absent?
Was experiencing absent?
Was functioning absent?
Or merely commentary about awakening?
23. Deepening Inquiry: What Is Missing From Ordinary?
Look at an ordinary moment.
A cup.
A chair.
A sound outside.
A plan for dinner.
Then ask:
What would need to be added for this to count as awakened?
Notice the answer.
Peace?
Spaciousness?
No thought?
Meaning?
Certainty?
That addition may reveal the imagined special state still being sought.
24. Clean Formulation
Awakening need not become a continuous self-conscious state in which someone constantly notices being awake. Ordinary life continues: walking, eating, planning, showering, remembering, thinking, becoming irritated, forgetting things, enjoying stories. Thought and conceptual activity remain useful biological functions. There is no need to escape harmless stories merely because they are stories. Inquiry becomes relevant when a story is taken with enough authority to create suffering, identity or a demand that experience should be different. As seeking weakens, awakening may become less conspicuous rather than more. What remains is not a permanently special state, but increasingly ordinary life without the requirement that it continually prove anything.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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whoknows
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Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Sun Aug 16, 2026 4:56 pm

Hi, vince. Thank you for sharing your new story and song.

They reminded me of this: When I’m teaching Buddhism and we’re considering the Mahayana teaching that samsara is nirvana, I sometimes share the song “Just Another Day in Paradise” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RigfIrObPkI), which my husband and I heard on the radio many years ago on a road trip (the only time we listen to country music) and both thought, “That’s so Buddhist!” (though the artist, Phil Vassar, is presumably Christian). Basically, he’s singing about an ordinary day with ordinary problems and calling it (non-ironically) “just another day in paradise.”

Obviously, I identify with Daniel, though only in some ways and to a certain degree.

I already recognize that my not thinking all the time about awakening is probably a good sign at this point (and also that this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with thinking about it).

I’m already clear on the value and appropriate uses of thinking and the non-problem of being caught up in, say, reading a novel or planning a vacation.

And I immediately recognize that there’s no problem with being annoyed by a neighbor who’s making loud, irritating noises. But I do fall into thinking there’s a problem with my emotional reactions to things. What comes to mind is that, recently, when I’ve been feeling really resistant to doing some work, I’ve been apt to think, “WTF?!” (Brain just recalled how the Wisconsin Tourism Federation changed its name to the Tourism Federation of Wisconsin after too many jokes about its acronym.)

But here, I get caught up in considering how to discern when an emotional reaction to something indicates something that needs to be dealt with in the relative world. I have often been prone to “spiritualizing” my problems and neglecting to try to fix things that need fixing. I think maybe one sign that fixing needs to be attempted is when the emotional reaction is strong and repeated. But I’m far from sorting this out.

He had expected awakening to become increasingly obvious.
Not necessarily dramatic.
He had given up on dramatic.
Mostly.
Got a chuckle out of that.

I don’t need anything very dramatic, but . . . (You probably already know where I’m going with this, but maybe it’s useful for me if I spell it out again.)

In reading a story like this one, part of my mind is thinking, “Sure, being less obsessed with waking up is a good step on the way to waking up.” (And, yes, while typing that, I recognized the opportunity to deconstruct the thought “I am not awake” or “I want to wake up.”)

I definitely still want and expect some sort of definitive awakening (or perhaps a definitive recognition of awakening, as you’ve suggested), something with a specific date and time, or maybe a stretch of a few days. I don’t expect, or even necessarily want, a lot of drama, but I do expect a sense of relief and a sense that I’ve seen reality in a new way. I expect a sense of “Oh, duh,” and perhaps some fits of laughter at how it has always been right here in front of me. I expect a noticeable, if not necessarily huge, shift toward feeling less weighed down by being alive, perhaps due to a noticeable reduction in the arising and stickiness of “self”-related thoughts. I expect to have an urge to talk about this shift with at least a few select people but to wonder how and whether to do that. (I tried to spell that all out in as much detail as I could.)

Is there anything useful to be done with these desires and expectations other than to notice them?

It's time for lunch, but I want to come back to these later:
20. Deepening Inquiry: The Awake Person
23. Deepening Inquiry: What Is Missing From Ordinary?

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whoknows
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Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2026 7:41 am

Re: realizing selflessness

Postby whoknows » Sun Aug 16, 2026 7:43 pm

Returning to this:
20. Deepening Inquiry: The Awake Person
Complete this sentence:
If I were truly awake, throughout the day I would…
. . . not be miserable and not feel like being alive is torture.
(OK, I’m feeling like that less and less.)

. . . not get caught up so often in useless and usually unpleasant thinking.
(OK, I was noticing yesterday and the day before that I was less caught up in thoughts and more aware of perceptions of the present moment than usual.)

. . . feel more of a sense of ease and peace and lightness.
(Hmm, well, maybe I have been moving overall toward a bit less of a sense of unease and distress and heaviness.)

Where did this picture come from?
Lots and lots of reading and videos and dharma talks and such.
Can that imaginary person actually be found?
Ah. Right. You got me there.
Who is this supposed “I” who sometimes feels miserable or excessively caught up in thoughts or who longs for more ease and peace and lightness?
Looking now . . .
Of course, all I find is an ever-changing array of sense perceptions and thoughts.
And at the moment, there’s no misery or significant unease found — but also not really a sense of ease or lightness.

23. Deepening Inquiry: What Is Missing From Ordinary?
Look at an ordinary moment.
. . . . .
Then ask:
What would need to be added for this to count as awakened?
Hmm . . .
Not too much chattery, “self”-centered thought?
A sense of ease and contentment?
Perhaps a recollection of a definitive glimpse of a “self”-less view of reality and, thus, having less of a background sense of fear of future misery? (OK, that one struck a nerve. There’s something there.)
That addition may reveal the imagined special state still being sought.
I suppose so.


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