Cheese

[Cheese]

1. I had made up my mind about something - I made a decision. But some times has passed I feel doubt and keep thinking - maybe? There's fighting in me and I'm just thinking it is happening in me and I am not doing it.(Although truthfully there is an "I" involved. I'm like this or I'm like that. Can you comment?
2. About automatic responses - I missed this part and had to reread the last page(3) of this conversations and when thinking about thoughts. It felt like there's a moment before thoughts come in, maybe it is instinct. Or it's like a mini-thought. When I speak I don't have a whole sentence in my head of what I am going to say.(But I have heard that speaking in verbalized thought, can you comment on this?)
3. It is hard to leave thoughts in the background without giving them attention. There's some attention going to them anyway. If I am focusing on my self instead of the thoughts - the thoughts stop for a moment and there is nothing in the background or there might be mini-thoughts. When I am speaking to someone there are thoughts in my head but I am saying something else. I try my hardest but it comes out just a little bit different and it comes to a different meaning. More or less (more) I rely on my thoughts in most of my decisions.

[Magdalena]

I had made up my mind about something - I made a decision.

Who did? Was there a doer - a decision maker?

But some times has passed I feel doubt and keep thinking - maybe?

Is there a doubter? A thinker?

There's fighting in me

In whom is there fighting?
Is there a fighter?

and I'm just thinking it is happening in me and I am not doing it.

Who is thinking that? And who isn’t doing?

Although truthfully there is an "I" involved. I'm like this or I'm like that.

Say more?

Can you comment?

Can who? Says who?

It felt like there's a moment before thoughts come in, maybe it is instinct. Or it's like a mini-thought.

Who wants to know what it may be?

When I speak I don't have a whole sentence in my head of what I am going to say.

Who doesn’t?
Who speaks?
Whose head is it?

(But I have heard that speaking in verbalized thought, can you comment on this?)

Who has heard?
Could that hearing be stopped – and by whom?
Look into your own experience and see.

It is hard to leave thoughts in the background without giving them attention.

Who said it would be easy? 😉

…there might be mini-thoughts.

… and micro thoughts, and nano thoughts… 😉
Thoughts are thoughts, regardless of size, content, quality, and what not.

When I am speaking to someone there are thoughts in my head but I am saying something else.

Speaking comes before or after thinking then?

More or less (more) I rely on my thoughts in most of my decisions.

You sure? See above. 😉

[Cheese]

It is now just a memory of what I wrote earlier but I will try to answer all of your questions.

I had made up my mind about something - I made a decision.

Who did? Was there a doer - a decision maker?

I am inclined to say, yes, there was. But on the other hand taking into account what we had discussed previously that it was just thoughts saying "I choose to do like this" and they were strong with emotion. Maybe an imagined decision maker.

But some times has passed I feel doubt and keep thinking - maybe?

Is there a doubter? A thinker?

Same as above.

There's fighting in me

In whom is there fighting?
Is there a fighter?

Apply same answer as above. I don't know if these type of questions are useful like it all boils down to semantics. I could've said "There's fighting, strong emotions observed". I don't know if I understand the questions correctly.

and I'm just thinking it is happening in me and I am not doing it.

Who is thinking that? And who isn’t doing?

The one who tries to not get involved. Who's that? The one who can observe more.

Although truthfully there is an "I" involved. I'm like this or I'm like that.

Say more?

Well all the thinking process involves an I. It's me. "I will be like this, I will look like this if I do like this" - sort of this type of thinking.

Can you comment?

Can who? Says who?

I don't understand.

It felt like there's a moment before thoughts come in, maybe it is instinct. Or it's like a mini-thought.

Who wants to know what it may be?

I don't remember what I really meant by this. But I of course.

When I speak I don't have a whole sentence in my head of what I am going to say.

Who doesn’t?
Who speaks?
Whose head is it?

Why are you speaking like this? "There(or here) appears a thought that isn't a full sentence" - there, is that better?

(But I have heard that speaking in verbalized thought, can you comment on this?)

Who has heard?
Could that hearing be stopped – and by whom?
Look into your own experience and see.

To all of your questions the simple answer is me or I.

It is hard to leave thoughts in the background without giving them attention.

Who said it would be easy? 😉

Nobody.

When I am speaking to someone there are thoughts in my head but I am saying something else.

Speaking comes before or after thinking then?

After. Especially if I have something to say. Like I decide what's a good way/thing to say in the middle of saying it I am inclined to twist to a more vulnerable way or the opposite.

More or less (more) I rely on my thoughts in most of my decisions.

You sure? See above. 😉

Okay, a lot of the time. I don't see myself as free of thinking.

[Magdalena]

it all boils down to semantics. I could've said "There's fighting, strong emotions observed".

Why are you speaking like this? "There(or here) appears a thought that isn't a full sentence" - there, is that better?

No, it’s not better and it's a matter of semantics at all.
You can use non-dual-speak and deceive yourself that it’s evidence of some sort of insight or something, and you can use conventional language with a profound sense that it’s just words.
What you’re saying and how you’re saying it does not communicate that it’s the latter, that’s all.


But to go back to your answers to the questions. Well, sounds like there’s a whole legion of me’s in there. 😉
There’s the doer, the decision maker, the doubter, the thinker, the fighter and who knows who else.

LOOK – can all of them (the doer, the decision maker, the doubter, the thinker, the fighter and all the rest) be separated from
Doing?
Decision making?
Doubting?
Thinking?
Fighting?
Etc.?


Maybe when you look at these questions, thoughts come

saying "I choose to do like this" and they [are] strong with emotion ?

I don't see myself as free of thinking.

No worries – that’s not going to happen.

[Cheese]

No, it’s not better and it's a matter of semantics at all.

I know, I am sorry. I was being passive aggressive, those questions annoyed me.

LOOK – can all of them (the doer, the decision maker, the doubter, the thinker, the fighter and all the rest) be separated from
Doing?
Decision making?
Doubting?
Thinking?
Fighting?
Etc.?

No.

Maybe when you look at these questions, thoughts come

saying "I choose to do like this" and they [are] strong with emotion ?

Yes. It can be mixed.

Sorry for such short replies, but I would like to continue. I took my time to reply. This is something I look forward to - thinking about an answer throughout the day.

[Magdalena]

Hey Artur,
Good to hear from you.

I know, I am sorry. I was being passive aggressive, those questions annoyed me.

Please – there is nothing to apologise for.
I don’t think this response was passive-aggressive, much less that you were being passive-aggressive – not at all.
Why the need for such heavy labels? Is that the way to deal with your perceived shortcomings? (please look into these two questions).

Look, these things can be quite taxing for people – that’s how it is, and it’s OK.

I saw you were being annoyed by these questions – and that’s perfectly natural too. No need to beat yourself up about it. It is all good.
I actually appreciate the sincerity with which you responded – and that sincerity includes the “semantics” argument (as it happens, it tends to be used out of confusion, as a sort of defence).


Let me ask you now how the annoyance with questions happened exactly:
Was there a choosing between being annoyed and not being annoyed? A moment of free will?
Or did the annoyance just happen, followed by the fingers typing certain words on the forum?
Was a distinct “annoyed Artur”, separate from the annoyance happening, needed for this?
Was he in control?

Next, please consider the above questions in regards to taking a break from the conversation, then coming back and apologising.
(Remember there’s no need to be judgmental about any of this – we are looking at how things happen, and whether there’s someone doing it – someone in control, with free will, able to make decisions, and so on).

This is something I look forward to - thinking about an answer throughout the day.

Good.
Just don’t limit yourself to THINKING about answers - I mean in the case of the previous couple of posts about annoyance etc., you only have memories to rely on, but it’s good to generally have some curiosity for EXPLORATION – rather than THINKING ABOUT EXPLORATION.

And, whatever you do, don’t be harsh on yourself – relax and enjoy instead, However things unfold is just fine.

[Cheese]

Let me ask you now how the annoyance with questions happened exactly:
Was there a choosing between being annoyed and not being annoyed? A moment of free will?
Or did the annoyance just happen, followed by the fingers typing certain words on the forum?
Was a distinct “annoyed Artur”, separate from the annoyance happening, needed for this?
Was he in control?

No choosing, just a feeling of being annoyed and then fingers typing something and thought activity. I guess no distinct Artur, separate from annoyance.

Next, please consider the above questions in regards to taking a break from the conversation, then coming back and apologising.
(Remember there’s no need to be judgmental about any of this – we are looking at how things happen, and whether there’s someone doing it – someone in control, with free will, able to make decisions, and so on).

I don't understand.

[Magdalena]

And how about the other questions? Anything to share?

[Cheese]

I don't think calling myself being passive-aggressive was heavy but then again I've been told I am critical on myself. I don't know why is that. I do suffer from my shortcomings mentally.

Anything else.. I have been trying to let my thoughts be in the background but it seems that I am very shortly dragged into them and when I realize there is like a releasing, hard to describe. I also feel that I am either present and not thinking or I am in my thoughts and there is a "me" there that disappears when the releasing happens. Usually there is a "them" also.

[Cheese]

I don’t know if this is what you meant. The only time when thoughts have been in the background is when I go to sleep. The I see thoughts just going wild without my participation.

[Magdalena]

Right, I hear you.

Do you ever take time to actually look at thoughts and what's in between?

Here is a step-by-step description of how to do this.

First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes
and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many, many times.


Between the two thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a milisecond before the next thought come in.


Throughout your day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

What's it like to be in that gap?

[Cheese]

It feels stills between the thoughts, although also with most thoughts there is no difference between thoughts and the gap except for some thoughts. They leave a bad feeling. I will try to do this exercise several times per day as you suggested. Now I did it just once with eyes open because I am at work. The thoughts come and they disappear without any resistance except for some thoughts like the bad ones I mentioned.

[Magdalena]

Sounds good to me.

Yes, please do this several times during the day - and try not to label thoughts as "good" or "bad".

Aren't they simply thoughts?

Like if you're watching clouds in the sky, you wouldn't necessarily label the dark ones ad "bad" just because they carry more chance for rain with them - right?

Don't get involved - just focus on the gap (the blue sky) in between.

[Cheese]

When should I get back to you? (Unless something appears in me, this could take some time.)

[Magdalena]

When you feel you've had enough experience of this to share.
We're not at school, and it's not like there's deadlines for your homework. 😉

Take your time. Experiment. Enjoy.
See what happens. 🙂🙂🙂