What am I?

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:02 pm

When awareness washes over me, which it does a few times per day, or something does, it is still. It grabs my attention. How do I know? A feeling in my head and body. It's as if something is saying, Hey! Look! It is here! But really, nothing is there. Nothing new at least. It seems to come when I am most busy, most lost in thought, and I do not always 'sink in' to it. If I keep on task, it goes away. If I give it my attention, it seems to deepen while I am focused on it. But 'I' remain while focused. Or at least the sense of something looking out my eyes does.
Here you described when it happens.
What it is, I don't know. it doesn't seem to be thought.
Yes, so what is it? Is it sensations, sounds, smells, tastes, images?
I see every tiny molecule moving, the space and objects become the same thing, or I see that they are made up of the same thing. Am I seeing energy? Is this awareness? Or is awareness something 'other' that this is all occurring in? Sometimes everything turns white, flat. No distance. I am trying to just let things unfold, just notice what is happening around me.

Is this what you mean? I am not sure.
Sound seems to disappear during all of this, the visual field is so interesting.

I guess the answer is no, I am not clearer on what awareness is.
There's no need to go to thought for the answer. Remember, direct experience is: sensation, sound, thought/image, smell, taste.

To use an analogy. Let's say a car goes past. I ask you to look and see what colors are in the car. If it's a red car with black tires, and other detailing, the answer might be red, black, blue etc.

What you're doing is telling me how fast the car goes, how it becomes the background, how amazing it is, and so on :)
This is in reference to self. In this mornings meditation I felt love and sadness for Lori. I looked in a different way today, before I had feeling of pushing Lori out, making her go away attached to my search. Today I only looked. In my body, I feel her in my chest. When in meditation, it is if i float up, so finding her caused me to go down, which I was loathe to do, so i left her there, and went up to blackness, not finding her 'up' there. Does that make sense?
The one thing you told me about direct experience was that there is a sensation in the chest. So then we would ask: Is that sensation lori/self?

Do you see how simple this is?

If I say 'I feel like the self is behind my eyes' and there's a thought that says 'that's me', then I would explore:

The sensations behind the eyes, is that me?
The thought 'that's me', is that me?

That's all that is needed. Anything else is thinking and concepts.

The reason I had you do vipassana noting is to see that in direct experience there is only see hear feel smell taste + thought. That's it. Very simple :)

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:30 pm

Yes, so what is it? Is it sensations, sounds, smells, tastes, images?
It doesn't feel like any of those things, except maybe the images I see? But no, it is a state, a clarity.
There's no need to go to thought for the answer. Remember, direct experience is: sensation, sound, thought/image, smell, taste.
Awareness is looking... I've been describing what it's seeing!!! Is that what I'm missing?
The one thing you told me about direct experience was that there is a sensation in the chest. So then we would ask: Is that sensation lori/self?
Oh, geeeeeeeze, I think I get it FINALLY.

Lori inhabits this body. What part of the body?
With my eyes open, in the head.
Specifically, looking out the eyes.
How do 'I' know this?
thought says it.
What is the origin of the thought?
Lori is tied to a history of thoughts.
None of which are currently happening, except the Lori thought.
What is this origin?
Hmmmm, there is awareness looking, and Lori is a thought.

I have such better clarity on all of this, I was not looking in the right place in the right way. I just look here, now. :)

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Wed Nov 01, 2023 4:42 pm

It doesn't feel like any of those things, except maybe the images I see? But no, it is a state, a clarity.
Image is thought.
Awareness is looking... I've been describing what it's seeing!!! Is that what I'm missing?
I'm pointing to what awareness is in direct experience. To say 'awareness is looking' is a thought. Can you find awareness anywhere except in a thought?

You might say 'I feel it', okay, but that is a sensation. It is not inherently awareness. There is no sensation that is awareness.

If I say awareness is feeling sensations, what I'm really saying is a concept/thought is feeling sensations. Awareness is a label, which is a thought, which does not exist as such.
Lori inhabits this body. What part of the body?
With my eyes open, in the head.
Specifically, looking out the eyes.
How do 'I' know this?
thought says it.
This is excellent.

Now, the thought that says Lori is looking out the eyes, is that Lori?
There's probably sensations somewhere around the eyes, are those sensations Lori?

We are looking for something concrete to say there is a Lori/self in there. Where is the self?
What is the origin of the thought?
Lori is tied to a history of thoughts.
None of which are currently happening, except the Lori thought.
What is this origin?
Hmmmm, there is awareness looking, and Lori is a thought.

I have such better clarity on all of this, I was not looking in the right place in the right way. I just look here, now. :)
This is where you went more into thinking, instead of relying on direct experience right now (what is seen, heard, felt, tasted, smelled).

History if thoughts is also one thought, as you can only experience one thought at a time.

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:15 pm

Image is thought.
I Are you saying everything I see is only a thought? Wowza!
I'm pointing to what awareness is in direct experience. To say 'awareness is looking' is a thought. Can you find awareness anywhere except in a thought?
Nope.
If I say awareness is feeling sensations, what I'm really saying is a concept/thought is feeling sensations.
GOT IT!
We are looking for something concrete to say there is a Lori/self in there. Where is the self?
She is only a thought. She isn't a smell, or a taste, or a sound, or a touch.

But help me understand this, please: the body does these things: smell, taste, touches, sees hears, does it not?
You might say 'I feel it', okay, but that is a sensation. It is not inherently awareness. There is no sensation that is awareness.
What receives the sensory information, just the body?

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:58 pm

I Are you saying everything I see is only a thought? Wowza!
Yes, if eyes are closed. If eyes are open, well there's a lot of thought there, too, but that is not the focus here.
GOT IT!
Something to mention here: I'm still getting to grips with how everything works for you, so excuse any missteps or confusions. Just ask questions if something seems off. I don't want to force any views here, just explore :)
What receives the sensory information, just the body?
But help me understand this, please: the body does these things: smell, taste, touches, sees hears, does it not?
Maybe this next pointer can help:

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to? What is the direct experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question.

Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, eating, etc) before replying.

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:48 pm

Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In direct experience does the body have a shape or a form?
The body disappears, so it has no size or shape.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No boundary at all. No clothing, no chair. Black emptiness.
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
No inside, no outside, no nothing. There is sound, but it is just that, sound.
What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to? What is the direct experience of the body?
With eyes closed, there is no body, 'body' is a label for eyes open. Direct experience of the body is nothing. It doesn't exist. However, there is sound.

Something to mention here: I'm still getting to grips with how everything works for you, so excuse any missteps or confusions. Just ask questions if something seems off. I don't want to force any views here, just explore :)
I appreciate that. 'Awareness' is a concept' 'I' have developed! It is an idea Lori has. 'Lori needs to find awareness.' It was an ah-hah moment for me. I have attached concepts/labels to awareness, so the mind can categorize it, own it. Maybe I should give it a new label: No-thingness? Label-to-end-all-labels? Righthererightnow? Lol

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:00 pm

I appreciate that. 'Awareness' is a concept' 'I' have developed! It is an idea Lori has. 'Lori needs to find awareness.' It was an ah-hah moment for me. I have attached concepts/labels to awareness, so the mind can categorize it, own it. Maybe I should give it a new label: No-thingness? Label-to-end-all-labels? Righthererightnow? Lol
Hehe, it's indeed difficult not to label.

It's good that there is some clarity on awareness. Let's explore thoughts:

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?


Let me know what you find :)

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:40 pm

Where are they coming from and going to?
No idea; coming from nowhere, going to nowhere.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No, I sat down to meditate and immediately the thoughts of what is on my agenda for this morning comes up. This happens often during the start of morning meditation. Distractions on things that would tae me away from meditation.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Not that I know of. It just shows up. All. Day. Long.
Can you predict the next thought?
No, I cannot. Even if it starts out with things that have to be done this morning, it will veer off into who-knows-what soon enough
Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?
Nope. Even if I were to try do that, as soon as I think, No, I don't want to think that, it's already being thought!
Do you control where attention goes?
it takes effort sometimes, but it feels like I do, at times. If I am engrossed in a task, then no effort. In meditation sometimes I can easily go to a place with little thought, or rather, the thoughts are still there, but they do not grasp my attention. And sometimes, it is futile. I can't settle down. I don't know what makes the difference.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts
I cannot stop them from the initial thought, but it seems I can send it temporarily in another direction.However, they are not gone forever. I have a scary/negative thought that has been haunting me for a couple of years now. It seems to not want to disappear, even though I have sat with it. This thought I have trouble with dislodging. Panic sets in.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Not sure what you mean by 'kind of thought.' Happy? Sad? Tasks? It is as if something else is choosing for me, all day long. They just pop in.
If I start to feel hungry, then I begin to think about what to eat. If I choose to listen to my body, (it feels tired, hungry, sleepy) thoughts will arise from that. But even then, my mind can override the body's feelings with thought, and the body will be ignored. I do try to stop and listen to my body.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No, they just appear.
It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?
Most times, they just follow each other down a crazy path from nowhere to nowhere. Who knows what is going to pop up? Not me! It feels like there is a mechanism that is spitting out random thoughts! It isn't me, because I am clueless as to what will come up next, unless it is in response to something else. It's baffling. Is it the actual brain matter? Kind of like the other senses? Lori isn't in control of thoughts. She may be accustomed to a certain way of speaking, have attributes, but they are not hers. The bodies?

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:50 pm

No, I cannot. Even if it starts out with things that have to be done this morning, it will veer off into who-knows-what soon enough
This doesn't sound 100% conclusive. Can you predict even one thought?

If there's a thought that says 'I'm going to think about an elephant' -- you needed to predict that thought.
it takes effort sometimes, but it feels like I do, at times. If I am engrossed in a task, then no effort. In meditation sometimes I can easily go to a place with little thought, or rather, the thoughts are still there, but they do not grasp my attention. And sometimes, it is futile. I can't settle down. I don't know what makes the difference.
Close your eyes, and notice attention. Now, try to predict where it moves next. Can you do it?
I cannot stop them from the initial thought, but it seems I can send it temporarily in another direction.
Isn't this the same as attention above. Can you predict it? Where does the urge to send it somewhere come from?
But even then, my mind can override the body's feelings with thought, and the body will be ignored. I do try to stop and listen to my body.
Even this listening to the body, are you in control of it, or does it just happen?

If you were in control, I imagine you would just listen to the body perfectly.
Most times, they just follow each other down a crazy path from nowhere to nowhere. Who knows what is going to pop up? Not me! It feels like there is a mechanism that is spitting out random thoughts! It isn't me, because I am clueless as to what will come up next, unless it is in response to something else. It's baffling. Is it the actual brain matter? Kind of like the other senses? Lori isn't in control of thoughts. She may be accustomed to a certain way of speaking, have attributes, but they are not hers. The bodies?
Yes, the thought factory never sleeps! :)

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:03 pm

This doesn't sound 100% conclusive. Can you predict even one thought?

If there's a thought that says 'I'm going to think about an elephant' -- you needed to predict that thought.
I am going about my morning today, and realizing that there are so many thoughts that I don't even recognize! By the time I stop and look,15 thoughts have gone by! So, no, I can't predict anything. So much thought!!
Close your eyes, and notice attention. Now, try to predict where it moves next. Can you do it?
No. No I cannot. I am not noting many, many random thoughts!!!! The urge to send it somewhere.... thought!
Isn't this the same as attention above. Can you predict it? Where does the urge to send it somewhere come from?
So many thoughts go unnoticed.
Even this listening to the body, are you in control of it, or does it just happen?
The stop and listening part? It is completely embedded in thoughts before and thoughts after! So, No, I am not in control of it, as I realize I am not in control of thoughts. The crazy chaos of the entire world is clear.

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:29 pm

The stop and listening part? It is completely embedded in thoughts before and thoughts after! So, No, I am not in control of it, as I realize I am not in control of thoughts. The crazy chaos of the entire world is clear.
The wheel of dharma turns, as they say.

So if you can't predict thoughts nor control attention, what is the 'self' or 'Lori' doing?

Is Lori in control of anything at all?

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Fri Nov 03, 2023 10:04 pm

So if you can't predict thoughts nor control attention, what is the 'self' or 'Lori' doing?
Nothing. She isn't thinking, she isn't formulating any opinions, she wants to be right, but she only trying to justify a self that isn't even there! She isn't even taking care of this body. She cannot hold attention on anything, the universe moves it all. She isn't able to control one thing. She can't control any thought, they run rampant. She can't decide anything, by the time she makes a decision, the moment of decision has passed and it is made.

I can mentally understand it, and it makes the top of my head buzz, but something doesn't accept it, or have a realization.
Is Lori in control of anything at all?
No she is figment of imagined thought, straining to be kept alive. And yet, she persists! UGH.

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Sat Nov 04, 2023 9:28 am

Nothing. She isn't thinking, she isn't formulating any opinions, she wants to be right, but she only trying to justify a self that isn't even there! She isn't even taking care of this body. She cannot hold attention on anything, the universe moves it all. She isn't able to control one thing. She can't control any thought, they run rampant. She can't decide anything, by the time she makes a decision, the moment of decision has passed and it is made.
Yes. Thought only reflects the senses or another thought.
Nothing. She isn't thinking, she isn't formulating any opinions, she wants to be right, but she only trying to justify a self that isn't even there! She isn't even taking care of this body. She cannot hold attention on anything, the universe moves it all. She isn't able to control one thing. She can't control any thought, they run rampant. She can't decide anything, by the time she makes a decision, the moment of decision has passed and it is made.

I can mentally understand it, and it makes the top of my head buzz, but something doesn't accept it, or have a realization.
What are your expectations on what's going to happen when the separate self is seen through?

Do you expect thoughts about Lori to disappear?

You may find these two videos interesting:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4
No she is figment of imagined thought, straining to be kept alive. And yet, she persists! UGH.
Who persists? Can you find someone?

And what is it that persists? Is it a feeling of being in control?

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:55 am

Do you expect thoughts about Lori to disappear?
I expect them to lessen, and perhaps they have. Hard to say, as all of this is just thought, thought and more thought.

I watched the 2 videos and found them very helpful thank you. I will watch them again.

Today was a busy day with family, doing things, so I tried to observe beliefs about Lori that I am holding onto. They are many, and varied. So, work to be done.
Right now, it seems too big. Futile. I also know those are thoughts, coming from nowhere, trying to land on a place of survival.

My hope is that the universe, awareness, whatever you want to call this force of serene clarity, has my back and it will unfold as it should.

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Sun Nov 05, 2023 9:01 am

I expect them to lessen, and perhaps they have. Hard to say, as all of this is just thought, thought and more thought.
They may or may not. Mostly it's the identification with them that makes you care if they are there or not.

Also, notice that it's another thought that comes in and says "This is too much thought," "There should be less thoughts," and so on.

Then there may be some self-evaluation going on to see how you're doing and maybe seeing if you're closer to getting where you want and so on. All that is an illusion.
Right now, it seems too big. Futile. I also know those are thoughts, coming from nowhere, trying to land on a place of survival.
This feeling of futility, can you go in and feel it fully without the labels and thoughts about it?

Notice where the sensations are, then go to the core, and relax into it. Welcome everything without becoming a welcomer.
My hope is that the universe, awareness, whatever you want to call this force of serene clarity, has my back and it will unfold as it should.
Everything is always unfolding as it should. Could it be any other way? :)


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