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[AwayKen127]

Does a belief as such ever appear in experience? Explain.

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff I'll spend another day with this and still looking at emotions when they arise as well, haven't forgotten that question.

[Russ84]

Does a belief as such ever appear in experience? Explain.

No, beliefs are just thoughts that are accepted as being true. I was driving to work this morning when a car in front had a plastic cup fall out their window. There was a thought of how that was littering and then a belief they were a bad person. I caught the belief/thought and realised there was no way to know what happened, and that I had just accepted this random thought of them doing so on purpose for no reason as the truth.

As for emotions so far it seems there is a sensation on the body followed by thoughts and more sensations. Some emotions cause a rush of thoughts and sensations that seem to be all around the body. It happens so fast it's hard to discern the order and sensations often still feel as though they have a position.

[AwayKen127]

No, beliefs are just thoughts that are accepted as being true. I was driving to work this morning when a car in front had a plastic cup fall out their window. There was a thought of how that was littering and then a belief they were a bad person. I caught the belief/thought and realised there was no way to know what happened, and that I had just accepted this random thought of them doing so on purpose for no reason as the truth.

This is all good, Jerry, but let's dig deeper. Thoughts are found in experience as reflections of sensations. The meaning of a thought, or what it refers to, can only be another thought. Here's an example: If I say, "imagine an apple", you experience the shapes and colors of an imagined apple, the aroma, the taste, and the texture, but the label "apple" is only a thought and does not appear in experience. Experience, being all that is experienced, does not include meanings or reference. Is that clear? If so, how does a belief appear in experience, and what, if anything, distinguishes it from any other thought? In experience, without thoughts, is there such a thing as a belief?

As for emotions so far it seems there is a sensation on the body followed by thoughts and more sensations. Some emotions cause a rush of thoughts and sensations that seem to be all around the body. It happens so fast it's hard to discern the order and sensations often still feel as though they have a position.

Right, emotions are thoughts and sensations. In experience, what can be said about the causal connection between the thoughts and the sensations?

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff I'll look at these over the next day and report back.

Experience, being all that is experienced, does not include meanings or reference. Is that clear?

Yes this is clear thank you for the explanation.

[Russ84]

Sorry been a bit hectic with work but will continue to look today.

[Russ84]

If so, how does a belief appear in experience, and what, if anything, distinguishes it from any other thought? In experience, without thoughts, is there such a thing as a belief?

When looking a belief just seems to trigger a lot of self referencing thoughts. A belief appears as a thought and nothing distinguishes it from other thoughts. So without thoughts there wouldn't be beliefs.

In experience, what can be said about the causal connection between the thoughts and the sensations?

I'm not sure on this, thoughts can increase the attention paid to sensations and make them seem more important?

[AwayKen127]

A belief appears as a thought and nothing distinguishes it from other thoughts. So without thoughts there wouldn't be beliefs.

Right. In pure experience, there are no beliefs as such. There can be visual or auditory phenomena constituting the experienced substance of the belief, but they're not beliefs until a thought labels them as such. What about implicit beliefs that express as actions? These also can't be known without thought. One notices the action and then a story arises that claims there was a motivating belief. Can you verify this for yourself?

In experience, what can be said about the causal connection between the thoughts and the sensations?

I'm not sure on this, thoughts can increase the attention paid to sensations and make them seem more important?

What I was pointing to is that causation is a concept. It is not found in direct experience. In pure experience, there is no connection between thoughts and sensations! You might object that thoughts and sensations are related in temporal sequence, but that is also a concept. See if you can verify this for yourself and let me know how it goes!

[Russ84]

Hi Jeff I'll spend more time looking at these two today

[Russ84]

These are a little challenging, will continue to look today and note what I see.

[AwayKen127]

Okay.

[Russ84]

One notices the action and then a story arises that claims there was a motivating belief. Can you verify this for yourself?

There's been more and more times when this has been noticed over the last couple days. A lot of actions happening and then thought claiming to have done it due to X reason. Still not every action so will continue to look here.

In pure experience, there is no connection between thoughts and sensations! You might object that thoughts and sensations are related in temporal sequence, but that is also a concept. See if you can verify this for yourself and let me know how it goes!

This one has been difficult, lots of frustration lately due to a difficult task at work and it's been hard to break away from thoughts to look when this arises. I've finally solved the challenge today and will continue to look at the (lack of) connection between sensations and thought

[AwayKen127]

Thanks for the progress report, Jerry.

One notices the action and then a story arises that claims there was a motivating belief. Can you verify this for yourself?

There's been more and more times when this has been noticed over the last couple days. A lot of actions happening and then thought claiming to have done it due to X reason. Still not every action so will continue to look here.

Sometimes there's an explicit belief-thought that precedes an action. Even then, though, the intended action doesn't always happen. Well, there will be a story about that too, explaining why it didn't happen even though it "should" have happened! Joscha Bach, a computer scientist and an awake philosopher of the mind, explains it this way: The "self", which appears to have agency, is a simulation of the control system (brain) of the organism. This simulation predicts what the control system will do, or explains what the control system has done after the fact. But the simulation is NOT the controller. The simulation creates predictions and explanations--it doesn't control anything. The conventional understanding is an error, like thinking that the weather forecaster makes the weather happen.

[Russ84]

That's really interesting and makes sense! Still looking at actions and beliefs, noticing more thoughts claiming or predicting actions as I go about the day. Still struggling with the belief of breathing during focus on the breath but continuing to look each mornings meditation.

Last night I was watching a show with a sad scene and noticed there wasn't a connection between the sensations and the thoughts. It seemed obvious in that moment. Will keep looking when other emotions arise.

[AwayKen127]

All good, Jerry. Notice that Joscha Bach's explanation is also a story, although sometimes it takes a better story to challenge a worse story. Ultimately, everything stands on direct experience and not on any explanation or understanding.