Looking for Guidance

[LosingIt]

I can't say that I had any real breakthroughs today.

During my meditation I kept analyzing the "reality" of my thoughts and affirming that they were not the actual objects or events they represented. Instead of saying to myself "thought occuring".

Tomorrow I will do this more as I go about my day (not only during my formal meditation).

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

Please take your time and explore DE as deeply as you can looking for any signs of a "self" or "I" in experience. Please also keep exploring whether "you" have any control over thoughts whatsoever.

Just a quick question for you today. When you say...

I can't say that I had any real breakthroughs today.

Can I ask what kind of breakthrough are you hoping or expecting to happen? For me and many others the breakthrough felt surprisingly ordinary and calm rather than any great rapture or epiphany but everyone is different and YMMV (your mileage may vary) as they say :)

[LosingIt]

Can I ask what kind of breakthrough are you hoping or expecting to happen? For me and many others the breakthrough felt surprisingly ordinary and calm rather than any great rapture or epiphany but everyone is different and YMMV (your mileage may vary) as they say :)

I understand that my semantics might lead you to think that I think a breakthrough will be for a dove to swoop down from heaven and a glowing light appears above my crown and I never have a fear or worry again and I perpetually see the radiant light of love permeating all creation from now on and forever. I'm not looking for that. For me a "breakthrough" would be a prolonged period of DE and a full(er) realization that DE is all there is. Thereafter, I would lapse into non-DE from time to time, but over time, I would be able to catch myself, and then go into DE again. I'm not even sure if that's a good summation.

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

When you say...

For me a "breakthrough" would be a prolonged period of DE and a full(er) realization that DE is all there is. Thereafter, I would lapse into non-DE from time to time, but over time, I would be able to catch myself, and then go into DE again. I'm not even sure if that's a good summation.

Are you saying you can enter into DE but *somethng* happens and you get caught up/identified with thinking about yourself in some way and forget about DE? If so, is it possible to start to be aware of what exactly is happening when you lose contact with DE and become involved in an internal monologue/reverie about yourself? When you catch yourself in these trains of thought can you disidentify from the content and come back to DE?

Taking a different tack, we can see the word/signifier "apple" refers to the fruit apple as the word "table" refers to all types of tables. However, what does the word/signifier "I" or "me" refer to? Can you find any point in DE which the word/signifier "I", "me", "Paul" refers to?

[LosingIt]

Are you saying you can enter into DE but *somethng* happens and you get caught up/identified with thinking about yourself in some way and forget about DE? If so, is it possible to start to be aware of what exactly is happening when you lose contact with DE and become involved in an internal monologue/reverie about yourself? When you catch yourself in these trains of thought can you disidentify from the content and come back to DE?

I will attempt to do this more.

Taking a different tack, we can see the word/signifier "apple" refers to the fruit apple as the word "table" refers to all types of tables. However, what does the word/signifier "I" or "me" refer to? Can you find any point in DE which the word/signifier "I", "me", "Paul" refers to?

It's a great question. In DE there is no way to find what the signifier "I", "me" , or Paul refers to. ..

[LosingIt]

Today, I concentrated more on seeing if there is an "I" in DE. And, I definitely couldn't find one.

It's hard for me to say what happens that causes me to lose contact with DE. I guess that thoughts arise, and I follow them, and more thoughts arise. I guess at some moment I identify with these newly arisen thoughts. It's like I'm not really aware that the process has started and a few moments into it I am lost in thought. Then I realize that I"m involved in some story, and then I "come back to my senses/DE" and thoughts stall for some moments. Then, maybe a thought or two arise and I'm able to notice them and let them go and get back into DE. Then a thought arises, and I follow it and the cycle repeats itself. A few moments later I realize that I'm lost in thought once again. I feel like I have to be vigilant to not get carried away. And the moment that I stop my vigilance, then I find myself involved in a story.

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say...

Today, I concentrated more on seeing if there is an "I" in DE. And, I definitely couldn't find one.

So if the self is not in DE where is it? Where is an "I" except in thoughts of "I"?

X

[LosingIt]

So if the self is not in DE where is it? Where is an "I" except in thoughts of "I"?

The "I" only exists in thoughts of "I".

I agree with this. But how do I rid myself, of thoughts of "I"? Do I stay perpetually in DE? I find it quite difficult.

My meditations are getting better as far as the length of time I am able to stay in DE, but not long after I stand up, I am back to the story of "Paul".

As far as what takes me back to the story of Paul... I'd say it's the people I associate with, and the monologue in my head, and the roles that I play in society.

[amrita]

Hi Paul,

In response to..

The "I" only exists in thoughts of "I".

I agree with this. But how do I rid myself, of thoughts of "I"? Do I stay perpetually in DE? I find it quite difficult.

In Buddhism there is the notion that ignorance (of our true nature) results in a "gravitational pull" towards the conditioned/thinking/symbolised experience whereas insight (into the true nature of all things including ourselves) results in a "gravitational pull" towards the unconditoned. In my experience, going through this process, and later the 10 fetter model, has resulted that the gravitational pull for me is towards DE rather than being caught up in thought. And I was someone who was deeply addicted to thoughts and thinking. So now, I spend most of my time in DE which is kind of like the default state rather than being caught up in a thought story (which used to be my default state). I don't know if that makes sense or is helpful at all.

In terms of your thinking, it is impossible to get rid of any thought, its more that we are aware that there is a thought present but we are not caught up or identified with it if that makes sense. In your case, do "you: exist in any of the thoughts you have about "yourself"? If you think of another person, friend or colleague, do "they" exist in your thoughts? Does an "apple" exist in the thought of an "apple"?

Furthermore, can a thought ever hurt you?

Best

Amrita X

[LosingIt]

In Buddhism there is the notion that ignorance (of our true nature) results in a "gravitational pull" towards the conditioned/thinking/symbolised experience whereas insight (into the true nature of all things including ourselves) results in a "gravitational pull" towards the unconditoned. In my experience, going through this process, and later the 10 fetter model, has resulted that the gravitational pull for me is towards DE rather than being caught up in thought. And I was someone who was deeply addicted to thoughts and thinking. So now, I spend most of my time in DE which is kind of like the default state rather than being caught up in a thought story (which used to be my default state). I don't know if that makes sense or is helpful at all.

This does make sense, and I will check out the 10 Fetter Model.

In terms of your thinking, it is impossible to get rid of any thought, its more that we are aware that there is a thought present but we are not caught up or identified with it if that makes sense. In your case, do "you: exist in any of the thoughts you have about "yourself"? If you think of another person, friend or colleague, do "they" exist in your thoughts? Does an "apple" exist in the thought of an "apple"?

If I think of a friend, they do not exist in my thoughts. My thoughts are symbols that represent my friend, mostly memories and imaginations about my friend. Their actual body is miles away, and I have no real idea what they are actually doing at this moment. They could be working, riding a bike, or having a heart attack (hopefully not).

Likewise an apple does not exist in the thought of an "apple". The thought of an "apple" cannot be physically held or eaten.

do "you: exist in any of the thoughts you have about "yourself"?

And, of course, this is the trickier question. Just like when I think about my friend, and he does not actually exist in my thoughts, I can think about "myself" and I do not actually exist in these thoughts. And when my friend thinks about "me", I do not exist materially in his thoughts.

Furthermore, can a thought ever hurt you?

I would say that a thought can only hurt you when you identify with it, or believe it to be real. If I had thoughts that someone was going to attack me, and I believed these thoughts, I could feel fear/anxiety/distress.

[amrita]

Hi,


So when you wrote a few days ago,

Today, I concentrated more on seeing if there is an "I" in DE. And, I definitely couldn't find one.

and

"And, of course, this is the trickier question. Just like when I think about my friend, and he does not actually exist in my thoughts, I can think about "myself" and I do not actually exist in these thoughts. And when my friend thinks about "me", I do not exist materially in his thoughts."

Where can the self be? if it can't be anywhere to be found in DE and neither does it exist in the mentalised symbols of thoughts, where is it? Perhaps the truth is staring at you that the self (sense of I-ness) does not exist, and has never existed, and has only ever appeared to exist in thoughts (mental symbols) about itself?

Which leads us to what you wrote about thoughts...

I would say that a thought can only hurt you when you identify with it, or believe it to be real. If I had thoughts that someone was going to attack me, and I believed these thoughts, I could feel fear/anxiety/distress.

What happens in DE when "you" identify with" or believe a thought? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content and experience the thought as a mental symbol in your field of awareness? In your example of someone going to attack you, if you stop identifying with the content of the thought, and just experience the empty mental symbol (eg words, images) of the thought, does that change the way you feel?

You also said earlier in the thread that most of your thoughts are about yourself in relation to your environment or social circle. Would you say you identify or disidentify from thoughts about yourself? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content and simply experience the thoughts as a set of empty mental symbols in the same manner that you experience neutral thoughts that don't affect you?

[LosingIt]

Where can the self be? if it can't be anywhere to be found in DE and neither does it exist in the mentalised symbols of thoughts, where is it? Perhaps the truth is staring at you that the self (sense of I-ness) does not exist, and has never existed, and has only ever appeared to exist in thoughts (mental symbols) about itself?

I agree with this, but the illusion just keeps coming back, even though I understand it intellectually.

What happens in DE when "you" identify with" or believe a thought? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content and experience the thought as a mental symbol in your field of awareness? In your example of someone going to attack you, if you stop identifying with the content of the thought, and just experience the empty mental symbol (eg words, images) of the thought, does that change the way you feel?

I'm hoping to be able to dis-identify with the contents and experience of thoughts. And meditation has helped me, to a degree, towards this end. Along with contemplating the philosophy of non duality.

You also said earlier in the thread that most of your thoughts are about yourself in relation to your environment or social circle. Would you say you identify or disidentify from thoughts about yourself? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content and simply experience the thoughts as a set of empty mental symbols in the same manner that you experience neutral thoughts that don't affect you?

I tend to identify with thoughts of myself, and am working on dis-identifying from them on a more consistent basis. During meditation I am generally able to disidentify with my thoughts, and merely experience them as symbols, and I'm trying to take this more and more into my daily life (when I am not in formal meditation).

[amrita]

Hi,

so when you say....

Where can the self be? if it can't be anywhere to be found in DE and neither does it exist in the mentalised symbols of thoughts, where is it? Perhaps the truth is staring at you that the self (sense of I-ness) does not exist, and has never existed, and has only ever appeared to exist in thoughts (mental symbols) about itself?

I agree with this, but the illusion just keeps coming back, even though I understand it intellectually.

What is it about the *illusion* that makes it believable? Does the "illusion" feel more real than DE? Is it not the case that awareness is simply present?

love

Amrita

[LosingIt]

What is it about the *illusion* that makes it believable?

Maybe my brain weeves some story that it alleges is consistent, and I'm used to believing that it is consistent and it is real? I know intellectually that the story is not consistent. And people in my circle of friends and family "attest" to this "consistency" by calling me "Paul" and affirming/confirming my likes and dislikes and history.

Does the "illusion" feel more real than DE?

No, it does not. The thoughts in my head do not feel more real than DE. They are very transitory and illusory.

Is it not the case that awareness is simply present?

It seems this way, when I am in DE.

[amrita]

Hi,

So when you say....

Maybe my brain weeves some story that it alleges is consistent, and I'm used to believing that it is consistent and it is real? I know intellectually that the story is not consistent. And people in my circle of friends and family "attest" to this "consistency" by calling me "Paul" and affirming/confirming my likes and dislikes and history.

Is this story that your brain weaves a set of thoughts or sensations? I suspect the majority of people believe in the assumption that a "self" or "I" exists and do not and are not interested in questioning the reality or truth of such an assumption. However, when we begin to "look" into our deep experience there is no self anywhere to be found. Only empty thoughts that say a self must exist.

If there is a self it must by definition be separate from everything else. In DE can you find an edge or boundary to where your sense of self stops?

Pay attention to your activities throughout the day.

Do "you" open doors of do they just open?

Do "you" read these words or are there simply words arising in awareness?

do "you" actually do anything or does everything simply happen?

Do "you" have control over anything at all? If so, please can you give an example of something "you" control?