Am here to deconstruct my ‘self’

[graceabounds]

Very good. :)

Yes, keep playing with this exercise, it is really effective in dismantling the illusion of control.

Speaking of a river… Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where a separate self autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are color preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!)
etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Jarfish' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what? (Take a look specifically at mum)

And perhaps take another walk if there is space for it. :)

Much love,
Becca

[Jarf1shRaw]

Hey Becca

That whole river analogy is beautiful, like it takes the path of least resistance and isn't in conflict with anything because it's not separate from anything.

1. Can you find anywhere where a separate self autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

= I take it you're asking whether I can even find a 'separate self' that does these things automatically? Like is there another layer here just saying the automatic responses makes up this 'self' which is struggling through life? But in reality it's all autonomous and playing out it's probability with the conditions which are unfolding...

At first when I read this question there were thoughts about 'overcoming your environment' like many people have done by breaking cycles of poverty, violence and abusive relationships. Like how come some people with traumatic upbringings/adverse life circumstances then gone unto completely changing the trajectory of their life paths and managed to thrive, whereas some people who were dealt the same hand stayed in these cycles and didn't change?

It's also something I might be holding onto because there's been times in my life where I didn't see there was even a possibility of me being able to do things as I just labelled set thing 'not for me i'm not good enough', and then I've been shown how to do it by a teacher and then been able to do it. But up until then if I had just believed the "products of all elements" in my life at the time I wouldn't of done it. Is this because when the teacher came the products of all elements were just like the "ever changing pattern" of the river, and it was in fact then part of the elements?

And this is a question that's always fascinated 'me'. As the unfolding of the path of realisation seems to be almost aided by the painful/uncomfortable situations life presents as great pointers. So does that also mean it is automatically happening on its own accord, the fact that the conditions then become fertile ground for awakening?

Because on a purely physical level, lets say person A and person B both share the exact same life circumstances, but person A does not notice awareness behind thoughts and person B does. Then person B's same life circumstances end up being the springboard to dissolving their false self, whilst person A's life circumstances fuel their false self and become stories that perpetuate their suffering. Why is it that person B even had the inner capacity to begin with? Is this also part of the "product of all elements" even though it's not physical? Are they then 'different' in a sense as a soul that incarnated?

So in answer to your question, through just looking in direct experience where I cannot locate a separate self I would say there isn't a separate autonomous self which chooses against being the "product of all elements". Maybe it's just ego that takes credit for when the person didn't become a product of their environment (physically). But somewhere along the line there was a capacity to realise their true nature which then unfolded automatically. This I can't explain why some are prone to this capacity (spiritually) and some don't. Seems to be like everyone is part of the whole playing out its infinite potentials automatically.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

= Again do you mean the life itself that's automatic or an entity/separate self? If the latter I guess it's still automatic and not intervening, as even if what feels like a 'trickier decision' has to be made for what to wear on an important day to look smart or 'hip n cool' as you say, the thoughts that then arise on what to wear are automatic responses based in memory and conditioning of what is considered most appropriate.

3. Can anything be found for which 'Jarfish' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what? (Take a look specifically at mum)

= This is directly addressing the tendency to want to fix. What feels like an 'I' who is responsible for helping mum live her 'best' life is also built from past conditioning around 'looking after your mum' as that's what you should do as she's the woman who birthed and raised you. This obviously doesn't mean I'm going to stop being there for her as a person when I realise there is no personal responsibility at all. But yeah overall, I think ego disguises it as 'love' as there's an urge to want to see her let go of these destructive patterns that are killing her physically but also perpetuating her mental suffering and strengthening the sense of separation in her life.

Yet, it's the belief in mortality and a fixation on temporary form which is the pattern that feeds into the 'want to fix', what feels like a 'responsibility' of mine is also another thought which is just more sticky as it's steeped in fear of losing another parent. It's attachment to form in this lifetime, but not anything that is definitive. I am starting to see there is no 'me' to continue holding this together.

One love
Jarfish

[graceabounds]

Hello Jarfish,

I can see things are percolating. And much of this is unanswerable without some story…

What gave the “one who broke the cycle” their turning point? The ‘right’ book, the teacher, the rock-bottom, the prayer, the surrender? Did they choose the timing? Or did it just happen? Did you choose the teacher? Did you generate the thoughts that said you aren’t good enough?

The _why_ of it is unanswerable.

…As is the why of person B waking up and not Person A.
Just because that’s what is.

somewhere along the line there was a capacity to realise their true nature which then unfolded automatically. This I can't explain why some are prone to this capacity (spiritually) and some don't. Seems to be like everyone is part of the whole playing out its infinite potentials automatically.

Yes.
And who judges the hierarchy of that?

I am starting to see there is no 'me' to continue holding this together.

*and there never was*

All of this will continue to play out. Nothing will change, but everything will seem different.

Words will come out and actions will be taken or not taken. You can stop pretending to carry the burden of waking someone else up because there is no you. Also no one ever woke up and there is no one asleep.
But I digress…

Let’s look at time since it is pretty fundamental to a lot of this thought salad.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love,
Becca

[Jarf1shRaw]

The _why_ of it is unanswerable.

Just felt into this and it resonated. It's the same as looking for 'who I am without a thought?'. The answer is in the nothing, which is a prerequisite for the question not being needed in the first place.

And who judges the hierarchy of that?

Ha. Yes. This points again to seeing through the veil of the false self who sees in duality, good and bad etc. This is a great pointer actually as I can inquire on this when strong emotions come up with the fixing tendency. It also made me laugh as it made me think of the saying 'WHO-AM-I to judge?'. Inquiry is everywhere lol!

*and there never was*

nice :)

In answer to your last questions there is only thought/constructs of separate events in time. Whereas there is only now, and when pondering on past experiences and memories you are still viewing thought in the present, same way trying to predict the future is done in the present. There is only now. Thanks for pointing back to this as it serves as a realisation of what is true and what is distortions of mind. I like the one about trying to find where the moment began and if it leads to another moment. Yes, it feels like there's an unfolding but in a way where there's no separate frames in this cartoon. It's one movement. It's fluid like water. Like the river!

So no there is not actual experience of time, only thoughts.

Really appreciate your help, keep the inquiries coming!

Love

[graceabounds]

:)

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past (memory) and future (prediction)?

If there is difference how is that difference known exactly?

Keep laughing!

🤍

[Jarf1shRaw]

Okay so I've pondered on this one for a little while and it's really hard to say.

So if I were to try and make an argument for there being a difference I would say that the thoughts about past are snapshots of a specific moment that has already happened. You could call this the 'known' reality in memory. Whereas the future thoughts moments that haven't quite been captured in the minds eye in the same way, yet thinking about it now the mind uses the past to project an image into the future. So maybe the only difference is the thought of the past was based on what was in the 5 senses at the time, whereas the future thoughts might not have as much details available.

However, this also made me think of how when people think thoughts of a situation that happened in the past it can bring back similar emotions (especially if it was an emotional charged memory) and so they almost re-live the experience. In a similar way, if they're using the past to try and predict a familiar future that feels (known) to them, then the body again doesn't know the difference and will experience those same emotions activating chemical responses like cortisol as signs of stress.

So in direct experience, maybe there is no real difference? You experience a thought about the past now, and you experience a thought about the future now. Both are imaginary reflections which have no true reality, and the body can experience both of them as if it's happening now. I've pondered on this one for a little while and it's really hard to say.

So if I were to try and make an argument for there being a difference I would say that the thoughts about past are snapshots of a specific moment that has already happened. You could call this the 'known' reality in memory. Whereas the future thoughts moments that haven't quite been captured in the minds eye in the same way, yet thinking about it now the mind uses the past to project an image into the future. So maybe the only difference is the thought of the past was based on what was in the 5 senses at the time, whereas the future thoughts might not have as much details available.

However, saying that this also made me think of how when people think thoughts of a situation that happened in the past it can bring back similar emotions (especially if it was an emotional charged memory) and so they almost re-live the experience. In a similar way, if they're using the past to try and predict a familiar future that feels (known) to them, then the body again doesn't know the difference and will experience those same emotions activating chemical responses like cortisol as signs of stress.

So in direct experience, maybe there is no real difference? You experience a thought about the past now, and you experience a thought about the future now. Both are imaginary reflections which have no true reality, and the body can experience both of them as if it's happening now.

Seems to be no inherent marker in the thought itself that says “this is past” or “this is future.” That distinction is added conceptually by another thought.

Memory feels more solid because it’s been referenced more often, it has emotional charge and it’s socially reinforced.

What do you reckon?

[Jarf1shRaw]

Don't know how I duplicated most of that lol ^^

[graceabounds]

Quite a bit of theory here...

So in direct experience, maybe there is no real difference?

So let's take a look.

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.
Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

[Jarf1shRaw]

Inquired on this for a few more days and it hit me yesterday on a walk on my work break!

A thought almost becomes like memory as soon as it happens. In an instant it is a snapshot and has no awareness itself, so even when you're thinking about something in your present reality, like someone shouting for example, it's still layering on top something which is not real of itself. Same with past, same with future. All thought is experienced now, and all thought is a reflection/image and not alive in and of itself.

And the moment doesn't begin or end, it's ongoing/infinitely extending, one motion!

Also had a moment of breathtaking beauty with this walk in a local park, it was like a realisation of all of this thought tied to the false sense of 'time' had fell away and there just is!!

Thanks Becca these are really chipping away at illusion

[graceabounds]

:D

Is this breathtaking beauty ever not accessible?

Out there in nature, does an I thought fly the bird? Does the plant need a self to grow? Everything in motion, the trees in the wind, the walking, just happening…

Can the false sense or illusion of control be released along with time?

[Jarf1shRaw]

Is this breathtaking beauty ever not accessible?

I guess not. It's only thoughts that overlay and cause perception to get in the way.

Out there in nature, does an I thought fly the bird? Does the plant need a self to grow? Everything in motion, the trees in the wind, the walking, just happening…

Beautiful.

an the false sense or illusion of control be released along with time?

Is the sense that 'I' am even doing all this inquiry a trap? There is now a deeply peaceful feeling of becoming empty and becoming the sound of the wind and the visuals of the trees on these walks. I see how the subject/object is starting to become one. Or just remember what it is lol

[graceabounds]

Is it a trap? Haha well you can’t take the one who is taking credit for any doing with you where you’re headed if that is an answer.

Is there an I to become the sound of the wind?… or is that too a thought after the fact, looking to take credit

Can it just be… wind?

[Jarf1shRaw]

Niiice. I'm gonna feel into that. Well not 'I' as a personality but you know what I mean. Language is a funny thing with this process haha.

Also there's a noticing of how sounds have become way more radiant and clear, and I've found myself zoning out to just the sound of the engine of the vehicle I'm in and becoming that sound alone just like wind or the water. This is becoming more and more enjoyable :)

[graceabounds]

Perfect.

From there take a look and see if seeking energy is still present…

🙏

[Jarf1shRaw]

Is seeking energy present as long as there's thoughts which try to explain what is happening and what 'I' need to do? Or will there always be thoughts like these from time to time but the awareness of them sees through their reality and knows without explanation?