Through the gateless gate

[Anastacia42]

You're doing fine.

"Self" is as unfindable as "apple." Have you noticed? Do you notice your lie feeling contraction?

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving

[vandyand]

Hello Stacy

I've been intermittently practicing exploring this 'sense of self' and here are some observations:

As I explore, I find a lot of deep rage and confusion come up, along with deep sadness, though there is also peace at times. Even writing this now there is some peace. Perhaps the peace is becoming more prevalent. The rage seems to stem from unmet expectations or desires. I hope I'm staying with direct experience enough in this explanation. Part of the melancholy comes from a sense of inability and ineptitude, supposedly from thoughts like "I should be better at this liberation thing" ironically.

To get to your questions:

Does the sense of self have a location?

No, not really. If it does it's in the gut or the upper right back neck area. These areas feel contracted most of the time, especially the upper neck/back area. For some reason, these contractions have the most "selfing" pull if that makes sense, in that they feel most "me". When "attempts" are made toward realizing liberations this contraction in my upper right back/neck area seems to most firmly hold "me" grounded as "me" if that makes sense. The contraction is not necessarily painful, more just annoying with some underlying persistent desire that it not be there.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No, no shape or size really. Just kind of this dark cloud that seems to be in/behind this body, just out of sight, but still felt, though intellectually this makes no sense.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

There are multiple "parties" that converse in this head/brain. I suppose the one that seems most "me" is the most prominent one which is largely characterized by a strong desire to fix all so-called problems with life. Often this one is trying to find the "optimal" prayer based on some belief that this will fix things. It seems silly now that it's written out. Perhaps this correlates with the contraction in the upper neck/back area which presents itself (or is interpreted as) a problem begging for a solution.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It seems to be made of thought mixed with sensation mixed with some type of belief (I suppose the belief that "I" exist). This selfing seems to manifest primarily by raising alarming thoughts which hook attention and try to keep attention regardless. This seems to be accomplished by inventing "problems" that need to be fixed and can only be fixed by more thinking. But then, more thinking never actually fixes these problems, while sitting and feeling and just being tends to be more helpful, because it's realized the problems are illusory.

Thank you for bearing with the long delays between posts. It seems to take me awhile to process things...

Thanks and much appreciation,
Andrew

[Anastacia42]

Andrew,

There is almost no direct experience in that reply at all.

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Can you see how you've mostly reported content of thought?

There is no self to do all the things you claim it does. All of that is purely stories in your imagination.

Yes, this imaginary "self" is sensation plus a label or story.

The sensation is usually a contraction. Tightness or heaviness. What did you learn that that is? That is the lie feeling.

So pretty much what you did was write a story about a bunch of lies.

I don't want to Ignore the discomfort that you're in from believing these lies. But that's all they are.

Try this:

Here is an anxiety exercise that focuses a person in the present, and in a part of the brain that cannot do anxiety. Basically, go through each sense and say (or think) "I see/ hear/ feel/ taste/ touch ______________." A minute or two of each and usually anxiety is gone.

I see the couch.
I see the keyboard.
I see the glass. Etc.

I hear the train.
I hear the keys clacking.
I hear my breath. Etc.

I feel the couch under my butt.
I feel my fingers on the keys.
I feel the cold air. Etc.

I taste a metallic taste in my mouth.
I taste the coffee.
I taste the food. Etc.

I smell the humidity in the air.
I smell my husband's shampoo.
I smell the soap. Etc.

As far as I can tell, the only time this doesn't work is when someone won't do it.

Loving

[vandyand]

Hi Stacy

Ok, so I've been doing this exercise all day today.

When at work:
I see the computer
I hear the drill
I smell the coffee
I taste the coffee
I think of my wife
I feel the computer mouse
I feel the keyboard
I feel my shoes
I see the machine

When in the car:
I feel the air
I see the road
I smell the air
I hear the car
I hear the other cars
I see the house
I see the telephone post
I see the fields
I see the farm
I smell the dump
I see the dump

etc.

Of course these could all be rephrased with no reference to "I" - Seeing the computer, hearing the drill, etc.

This exercise was helpful. Thank you. I'll keep doing it.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Anastacia42]

Great. That's good. It's to be used when you feel anxiety. You don't need to do it all day.

Have you watched the videos?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Still there?

[vandyand]

Hello.

Yes, still here. Just got back from a week-long vacation. I rewatched the body yes body no video. Thank you for the reminder. What she said about making space for doubt is helpful in that doubt cannot be solved, only dissolved when given space. And there is clarity when listening to the body instead of the loud chatty brain.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Anastacia42]

Sounds good.

Are you practicing ButtChair?

Loving,

[vandyand]

Yes, though intermittently. Perhaps a more regular practice would be beneficial? Though any type of structured approach seems distasteful.

Concerning direct experience in relation to thoughts, we are to notice thoughts but ignore their content correct? In this sense we "feel" our thoughts? I would appreciate guidance on this.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Anastacia42]

Just practice when you feel like it. No structured schedule is needed.

Let thoughts pass by & don't believe them.

Loving,

[vandyand]

Let thoughts pass by & don't believe them

Ok, that's fine, though it seems easier said than done.

At work there are many tasks that require a lot of thought. When engaged in these tasks it seems more difficult to recognize no-self than, say, when sitting in nature. Maybe this isn't an issue, more of an observation?

Thanks,
Andrew

[Anastacia42]

Hi Andrew,

At work, just do your work.

If you notice a shift in perception while working, great. Remember, it is likely to happen when you are relaxed and not really thinking about it.

Keep practicing any pointer you like, particularly ButtChair and the ones in the DropBox.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/k1ph01p ... rht7h&dl=0

Keep posting here, so I can help.

Loving,

[vandyand]

Thank you for the DropBox resources. Listening to the first talk last Friday was really enjoyable and it's stuck with me since. It was about defining God as everything that exists combined with the fact that all we experience is direct experience which means each moment is just a different appearance of God. Then the speaker made the point that the witness is also included in "everything that exists" in which case we are simply God experiencing him/her/itself moment by moment which helps put things into perspective. I will continue working my way through these talks but wanted to send a quick note of appreciation :)

Thanks,
Andrew

[Anastacia42]

You're quite welcome, Andrew.

Keep posting how it is going.

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Please don't ghost the thread.

Please let me know if you're quitting.

Thank you,