Liberation lost and found

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SarahLuna
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Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Fri May 05, 2023 1:47 pm

Thanks for another opportunity with sensations!
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
I found no connection. I couldn’t find the sensations in the mirror. The image in the mirror felt strange to me - like I expected something different.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
I couldn’t find the connection. I didn’t expect the image to look the way it did, having gained a different image in my mind whilst reading the instructions.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
In this case it seemed that the sensations were coming from the moving hand.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
I found nothing to suggest that the image is ‘me’. It was just a picture. There are just colours and shapes.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
There was nothing in the picture in the mirror to indicate that there MUST be other body parts that weren’t showing.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Only sensations are In awareness. There’s no proof of anything else.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
‘Walking’ is a label, I suppose. There were experiences of things in my visual field changing during the walking, as well as sensations. There is no definite thing that is a body. There is no definite ‘walking’ that I can find, just changes in my sense perceptions.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
If the space is pre-labelled then the thought is that sensations are in that space. I experienced the sensations staying in the same place, and visual perceptions changing.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri May 05, 2023 2:23 pm

Good. These "body" exercises help you to SEE more clearly the difference between thought content & Actual or Direct Experience.

No apple. (next pointer)
No body.
No self.
It would be odd for there to have been a self and there now isn’t one. One would have to ask where it went?! I didn’t notice it go if it went! So either there is one and there has always been one or there has never been one. These options seem most realistic.
Truly!

How does it FEEL to SEE this?

Can you now say there is no "self" and never has been?


I thought we'd already done Apple, but we did Body first, since you mentioned it. Let's look at Apple now.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise. Google for a picture of an apple.

Image

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?
Have fun and let me know what you find out.



Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Fri May 05, 2023 5:47 pm

How does it FEEL to SEE this?
Can you now say there is no "self" and never has been?
Well, ‘reality’ feels a bit odd at the moment, to be honest. In one sense everything is perfectly normal (I fuss about my husband eating well, I don’t like the mess he creates outside whilst he immerses himself in yet another shed building project, and so on), and yet I know nothing really matters on a deeper level. There is a peace that wasn’t there before. Things used to really matter. I am questioning things I have taken for granted for as long as I remember. Things like the choices I make. And what on Earth all of this ‘reality’ is.

I was feeling very sad yesterday, and this morning I wrote a poem:

No Man’s Land

Here in no man’s land there are trees.
Dead trees.
Some have been torn down,
Others have burnt
Into black, ghost-like stumps.

There is also a lot of mud,
Here in no man’s land.
An awful lot of mud.
I trudge slowly through it,
Looking for a glimmer of life.

To my left, the war rages on,
With large bangs,
Loud cries,
Flags flying,
Smoke and flashing lights.

In the distance,
I hear Marilyn,
Singing to the troops.
I hate her; I want to kill her,
But she’s already dead.

To my right, there is nothing.
No-thing.
My mind makes it into a thing:
A terrifying black hole.
That consumes the light.

At the event horizon,
Chögyam’s analogy
Makes so much sense.
It’s like falling, he says,
Without a parachute.

Nothing to stand on.
No ground.
Just endless falling,
The stories of me,
Evaporating in the wind.

But I’m not free.

Because something of ‘me’,
Remains here in no man’s land,
Caked in mud,
Cowering under a dead tree.
Still clinging on.


I then went for a run, to attempt to feel better. On the way back I saw some rubbish on the side of the road. I decided not to stop and pick it up. But then I found myself picking it up. I saw, I suppose, in that experience, that a separate self is not in control. A bit later, for a small amount of time, I wasn’t fully in my body, kind of half in half out, but it was just a brief experience. I remembered, too how, on my way home, how we had come to live here (on the Isle of Harris, in the north of Scotland) after a sudden deep intuition I had to move, after seeing a house for sale on a holiday here. It’s not the sort of place I would consciously choose to live: I always saw myself as a city-lover.

So, I’m now getting a bit confused about the difference between a self and an ego, but in terms of there being a separate person, somehow completely different to other aspects of life, a controller of me, it seems more clear that that has never existed. And yet thoughts say that I am clearly separate and in control of me, to the extent I can be, given outside influences. So the seeing comes and goes.

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Fri May 05, 2023 6:08 pm

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
They aren’t necessarily a reflection of reality.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
What is found is colour and image. Or seen in another way, a collection of images, even. ‘Apple’ is just a linguistic label. If I touch the apple, there is sensation.
However, is an apple actually known?
All I can know is through my senses. And I can know I am thinking. The thoughts can label what I experience through my senses, and so change my experience. Unless I really look, I don’t see patterns and colours, I see an object I have labelled as ‘apple’. I can’t directly know ‘apple’ because it’s just a label.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri May 05, 2023 8:00 pm

Well, ‘reality’ feels a bit odd at the moment, to be honest.
Yes! That's the shift we're looking for.
yet I know nothing really matters on a deeper level. There is a peace that wasn’t there before. Things used to really matter. I am questioning things I have taken for granted for as long as I remember. Things like the choices I make. And what on Earth all of this ‘reality’ is.
Yes! This, too.

This can also come & go as we adjust to what is true. Watch this, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Sat May 06, 2023 9:33 am

The videos were very useful. I will listen again.

The need to know has always been a big thing for me; I trace it back to childhood trauma. (This trauma is only something I have uncovered in the last 6 months or so).

Lots of emotions have been coming up in the last year or so, and I try to sit with them. Allow them to be there.
In terms of beliefs, I have noticed that I have a belief that I need to ‘do something’ and avoid ‘wasting time.’ Yet all the things I have previously focused on doing don’t seem so important now. I think doing things was a way of avoiding very deeply burried feelings linked to trauma. I addressed less deeply burried emotions linked to my parents many years ago.

I’ll look out for other beliefs.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat May 06, 2023 1:28 pm

Okay...
I’m now getting a bit confused about the difference between a self and an ego,
There's no difference. They're both terms for the illusion of something separate. Neither one exists.

Releasing the "need to know" all the time can be very freeing. You can pursue unraveling the "trauma" from a clearer place now.

This may help you with letting go.

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where "Sarah" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Sarah" is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?


As always, relax & have fun!

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Sat May 06, 2023 11:45 pm

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?
Streams don’t make conscious choices, as far as I am aware. ‘Stream’ is also a label; no stream can be found. Each time I point to any stream it will be different.

Can you find anywhere where "Sarah" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?
For many years I presumed I was more than just a label, I presumed I was a separate thing. Of course it’s clear to me that I am just the product of a variety of elements, and that each time I am pointed to, I am different. Today, I planned to do some reading, and never did. I did go on a walk that I hadn’t pre-planned, and spent time with a Rowan tree growing near a river.

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Sat May 06, 2023 11:53 pm

Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
Thoughts would suggest I chose what to wear today, but my choices may have just been linked to habit (wearing things from yesterday that were not yet dirty). I chose to wear a different necklace than yesterday, and I can’t say why. During my walk I had to take off my thermal trousers because I was too hot: it was sunny outside!
Can anything be found for which 'Sarah" is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
This is an interesting question. A thought would say I am responsible for my cat, as she is vulnerable. But I’m not really responsible for anything. The idea of being responsible makes me feel special and important; this is probably a factor in all relationships. Yet it creates the illusion of separation, I suppose. Ultimately I am no more or less special than everyone and everything. If I died, the world would go on.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun May 07, 2023 1:07 am

True, no responsibility, no choice, no free will, etc.

Can you now say there is no "self" and never has been?



Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Sun May 07, 2023 6:25 pm

Can you now say there is no "self" and never has been?
I’m a bit confused at the moment. I imagined there would be a great deal of clarity. Can you define the separate self so I can be sure it’s not there? Thanks.

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Sun May 07, 2023 9:56 pm

I attended the zoom meeting today and spent a lot of time talking to Illona about my struggle with not wanting to let go of a separate self. Because I really felt like I had a separate self. And I have felt that way for many years…. I was in a very confused state.

I'm pleased to say that I've now kind of seen through the idea of the separate self, though it only happened a few hours ago, so I don’t know how stable it is: I was listening to someone ask Bernardo Kastrup a question, and he mentioned that he had heard Rupert Spira talk about labels and had then seen how a 'tree' isn't a tree. I had recently watched a documentary about fungal mycorrhiza, so I could see that of course a tree, as we see it, is just a label.. The man (a mechanical engineer) then asked Bernardo why spiritual teachers see the truth so clearly when academics and scientists struggle. (At least this is what I heard him say). Bernardo answered that reality isn't vulnerable; it's always there. And somehow that was an ah-ha moment....

I’m going to bed, so I will see how I feel in the morning…

Thanks so much!
Sarah.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun May 07, 2023 11:09 pm

You're welcome. Let me know.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti

SarahLuna
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:24 am
Location: Isle of Harris, Scotland.

Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby SarahLuna » Mon May 08, 2023 6:00 pm

I wrote a poem this morning:

Only ever one

There’s no such thing as a baby,
Winnicot famously said,
Because a baby can’t exist alone,
Whether it’s alive…or dead.

It turns out that nothing is separate,
Though we perceive separate things,
Like the difference between a bird,
And the sprightly song it sings.

They say the truth is obvious,
When we are very small.
But soon we are brainwashed
To forget about the all.

Our species has survived and thrived,
Thanks to the language that we made,
But the illusion of separation,
Is the price that has been paid.

My teacher is a Rowan tree,
He IS the river he lives by,
He’s the distant stars he sees at night,
And he’s not separate from the sky.

Nature tells us if we’ll listen,
If we are truly willing to see,
That there was only ever one,
There never was a separate ‘me’.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Liberation lost and found

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon May 08, 2023 11:06 pm

That is very sweet.

Here is something that may help:

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?


Relax. Let it come to you.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Thought is a garbage can. If you look into the garbage can, all you will get is garbage."

~ Adyashanti


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