Breaking through views

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

I must add responding to this that in the experience of seeing. noticing, smelling, holding, pleasant feeling 'tooth paste' there was NO THINKING, it was followed by non perception, more not thinking . When I looked for "I" in the experience, anywhere, there was no experience of "I".

Great work! This leads to me another question...(below)

There is something else to pull apart when I read your message; "ONLY thinking" = mind automatic teller of of stories, ONLY thinking= mind aware, informed to the other senses?

I am going to try and answer by rather asking you another question : What is the mind? Where is it right now?

So, I question myself in all situations and places, and in all positions, it’s natural, I live to break through the difficulties, views that I encounter. And I feel much gratitude for your guidance because it structures and focus what I have been doing so far, that has to be good! I may do it in a way that to you appears difficult or clanky, that’s the way it has been for me! I stand to be corrected or advised if it leads to breaking through and being more efficient, kind, truthful, and wise.

I understand completely. The questioning daily is completely fine! I myself have practiced Buddhism (mostly Zen) quite a lot. My personal suggestion for this inquiry to be effective, is to treat it like you're just popping into a house for 5-10 minutes (or however long you take while reading and answering the questions). For those 5-10, try to leave everything at the door. It will all be waiting for you as soon as you walk back out the door.

I have been wondering if, sometimes LU “allows” for screen meeting with the guide; I am too aware of how ‘seeing’ another person can clarify and explain further some things that appeared complicated, or before, were difficult to explain. Written language has limitations, spoken and body language can compliment give accuracy and clarity.

I believe some guides are doing this now, definitely. I unfortunately don't think I will be able to at the moment but i'm open to considering it. I'm not sure if I'm as effective with spoken language as with written, but we can see when I have some more free time.

Have a lovely evening!
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

Many thanks for your comments and questions.

“What is the mind?

An insight from deep meditation: a sphere of perception where we are all plugged in, naturally connected in awakening, this works for me here and now.

The fact is that we use the concept on and on, I use it too, and I mean it to describe the experience of “cognition”; “ in the cognate the cognate” that leads to awakening, the insight, different from the fickle, unruly, circular story telling “automaton” mind.

Where is it now?

In act of purifying the cognate, no place, no time, no labels. That's the experience.

Wishing you a joy in this sunny day

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

An insight from deep meditation: a sphere of perception where we are all plugged in, naturally connected in awakening, this works for me here and now.

The fact is that we use the concept on and on, I use it too, and I mean it to describe the experience of “cognition”; “ in the cognate the cognate” that leads to awakening, the insight, different from the fickle, unruly, circular story telling “automaton” mind.

Through which sense perception is the mind perceived? Can it be found anywhere now outside of thought?

different from the fickle, unruly, circular story telling “automaton” mind

Please try and locate this fickle, unruly, and circular mind. Now compare it with the other mind. What are the exact differences? Where are they both?

In act of purifying the cognate

I'm not sure I understood this, can you put this in other words?

Wishing you a joy in this sunny day

Thank you! You as well. It has been very nice and sunny.

W

[Dhvictoria]

Good morning Wesley,

Mind thinks, interprets, it's not found outside thought. It may think circularly, or see reality. Either way, it's the sense that thinks, cognates.

'The act of purifying the cognate' is what we are doing here by engaging directly with experience -which includes mental experience.

Wishing you a good Sunday

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

Oh sorry! I have been writing "cognate' meaning "cognite" = thinking. Such different meanings! my apologies, I may have created confusion!

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

Mind thinks, interprets, it's not found outside thought. It may think circularly, or see reality. Either way, it's the sense that thinks, cognates.

If the mind thinks, how does it do it? How does the mind think a thought?

Wait for the next thought to arise and observe. Where is the mind that thinks that thought?

'The act of purifying the cognate' is what we are doing here by engaging directly with experience -which includes mental experience.

Oh sorry! I have been writing "cognate' meaning "cognite" = thinking. Such different meanings! my apologies, I may have created confusion!

Ok I see now, thanks for the clarification :)

Happy Easter!

W

[Dhvictoria]

Good evening Wesley,

I am glad to receive your message.

how does the mind think?

My experience informs me that the mind thinks 'grabbing' into ideas, or perceptions,

How does the mind think a thought?

Experience informs that it holds/grabs/grasps into an idea, or perception and produces the thought or a number of thoughts. And it's nowhere to be found,

Mind thinks, ears hear, nose smells, hand touches, tongue tastes, it's how it is. The senses work/perceive in co operation, they co arise for experience to happen.

[Dhvictoria]

Good morning Wesley,

And may you be well.

Following yesterday,

Everything is here; eyes, hand, ears making contact with an object. mug meets hand and there is an direct experience of both working together, then awareness disappears and mug and hand "seem' to disappear, but they don't, they are still around moving or being still, just being. All that happens is absence of awareness or perception, absence of experience.

" I " am not anywhere to be found though. Only when thought "grabs" to the idea or perception of ego: "I am my own person different and separate" "I hold a cup of tea with my hand", then the delusion of "I" and "me"occurs, but it's just an illusion created by that thought which subsides after the thought. It may arise again in the thought of grasping to "my" , This is the illusion.

Many thanks

Victoria

[Dhvictoria]

I feel a bit... laughing!

I have been dealing with concepts; thoughts and sensorial experiences, appropriating everything as "me", and there is nothing to appropriate! there never was, so much effort, so much reasoning and energy, for no one! :)))

Sorry I had to write this! I feel so.. laughing, relieved.

Thank you!

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

When you say

Experience informs that it holds/grabs/grasps into an idea, or perception and produces the thought or a number of thoughts. And it's nowhere to be found,

how is experience informing you exactly?

Let's come back to this, please answer each of these questions one by one, by check by looking in your direct experience now:
-can you see a mind anywhere? Look.
-can you hear a mind?
-How about smell? Can you smell it?
-Can you feel or touch it?

If the answer is no to all of these, then I have one last question. This one I would like you to really concentrate on looking directly at your experience :

Does the mind exist in thought? If so, can you say with 100% that a mind exists?

In other words, what if I were to say that a unicorn exists. I cannot see, hear, smell, taste or touch it, but I can think it, so it exists.

So, can a mind be found in any way other than thinking of it? Can a unicorn be found in any other way, other than thinking of it?

Take a small break or breather after these questions. I want to particularly focus on this mind, but don't want to ignore your other post. When you're ready, try this as another exercise:

Only when thought "grabs" to the idea or perception of ego:

How does a thought grab to an idea? Does it really grab anything? Or is there only a thought that arises, with content? The content could be anything "I want some coffee" or "it's nice outside" or "I don't exist". Do thoughts grab, or do they just "appear" (so to speak) in consciousness? Look right now in your experience, which is true?

I have been dealing with concepts; thoughts and sensorial experiences, appropriating everything as "me", and there is nothing to appropriate! there never was, so much effort, so much reasoning and energy, for no one! :)))

Sorry I had to write this! I feel so.. laughing, relieved.

Good to hear :)

Have a nice evening,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

good morning Wesley,

And thanks for your questions!

In answer to your first set of questions; I cannot see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or feel mind. There is nothing here to sense, unless I notice a thought. Then mind happens in the 'form' of thought, or thoughts; one after the other, like waves in the sea.

And my experience is a succession of transient thoughts and images delivered by mind, or the senses. I cannot find mind outside this experience; mind only exists when there is thought.

Pause

"Grabbing thoughts?"

I find some forgotten piece of chocolate, I think: " I had forgotten how much I like chocolate" , then: "I want that chocolate" , and then;"I'll make me a hot chocolate", so thoughts arose by seeing chocolate, then the thought of "liking" chocolate, then the thought desire for hot chocolate, and then the hand making and lastly tasting delight of hot chocolate; this was a direct experience.

I woke up and a childhood memory arose, I don't know where/why/how that thought came from other than nowhere. This was direct experience.

Wishing you a good day

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Good evening Victoria,

You're doing great, nice work looking.

In answer to your first set of questions; I cannot see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or feel mind. There is nothing here to sense, unless I notice a thought. Then mind happens in the 'form' of thought, or thoughts; one after the other, like waves in the sea.

So mind is just the content of a thought? Not anything more? If you're sure, then my next question is below...

And my experience is a succession of transient thoughts and images delivered by mind, or the senses. I cannot find mind outside this experience; mind only exists when there is thought.

How does one thought deliver another thought? Watch and wait to see how thoughts happen. Does a thought deliver a thought?

Or is this just a figure of speech?

I find some forgotten piece of chocolate, I think: " I had forgotten how much I like chocolate" , then: "I want that chocolate" , and then;"I'll make me a hot chocolate", so thoughts arose by seeing chocolate, then the thought of "liking" chocolate, then the thought desire for hot chocolate, and then the hand making and lastly tasting delight of hot chocolate; this was a direct experience.

I woke up and a childhood memory arose, I don't know where/why/how that thought came from other than nowhere. This was direct experience.

Great observations here. So, in this process at any point in time did a thought grab onto the idea of "chocolate"? Is the grabbing really what's happening or also just a figure of speech?

Have a great day and happy looking

Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Good evening Wesley,

I hope you are feeling successful with your exams! I resonate with the experience of exams!

I feel genuinely energised and glad that I am making progress. Great! I feel here is something truly moving too.

In response to your question arising from the second quote on your last post, namely:

" And my experience is a succession of transient thoughts and images delivered by mind, or the senses. I cannot find mind outside this experience; mind only exists when there is thought ",

Question:

How does one thought deliver another thought? Watch and wait to see how thoughts happen. Does a thought deliver a thought?

Or is this just a figure of speech?

Answer:

No, no; “one thought does not deliver another thought”

Sorry but, I don't say that "a thought delivers another thought” which is like saying: Thoughts arise, gather, snow ball roll, fatten and create “a solid mass of mind” that "I" identify as “me”, and then I define myself by. Neither I use any figure of speech!, no, please!

In fact, I experience/write something quite different: 'a succession of 'transient -random- thoughts' and images delivered by mind, for example; "white horse’, ‘must go shopping’, ‘it's going to rain”, it’s what I describe and I say.

And later experience even more punctually with the process of chocolate making and the childhood memory,

I feel very grateful for this enquiry that you are gifting me with, yet, sometimes I notice that truncating bits of paragraphs 'may' change the initial meaning.

Big gratitude

Victoria

[WesleySPK]

Hi Victoria,

Apologies for the delay here, it's the last week of exams. Thank you for your wishes :)

No, no; “one thought does not deliver another thought”

Sorry but, I don't say that "a thought delivers another thought” which is like saying: Thoughts arise, gather, snow ball roll, fatten and create “a solid mass of mind” that "I" identify as “me”, and then I define myself by. Neither I use any figure of speech!, no, please!

In fact, I experience/write something quite different: 'a succession of 'transient -random- thoughts' and images delivered by mind, for example; "white horse’, ‘must go shopping’, ‘it's going to rain”, it’s what I describe and I say.

Ok I see, thanks for the clarification.

I would still like to poke a little further with this mind...

thoughts' and images delivered by mind, for example; "white horse’, ‘must go shopping’, ‘it's going to rain”, it’s what I describe and I say.

Does a mind deliver thoughts, or do thoughts simply appear? What's actually happening in experience?

To take another example, if I ask you right now to open and close your hand. Can you find a "you" or anything whatsoever that opens and closes your hand? Or does it simply open and close?

Really pay attention to
1) the direct experience
2) the experience with the overlay of thoughts

Wishing you a lovely evening,
Wesley

[Dhvictoria]

Hello Wesley,

I am glad that you have finished your final exams, I hope that, whatever you were preparing for, you are successful

Delivery or appearance of thoughts? you ask,

I used ‘delivery’ as the operative word I found useful at the time, appearance is good too, they both convey the same meaning to me: a thought that happens or appears, and for the duration of that thought, mind seems to exists as another sense; a sense that delivers thoughts, or thought arises, like hand delivers touch, or touch happens.

Opening and closing hand;

Direct experience hand opens on its own, hand closes on its own. I see it, that’s it, no “me”, “mind”, nor thought.

Later in a meeting with friends, I looked for overlaying thoughts in the experiences of the meeting. I noticed while I was listening that there was a residual awareness in the body, not a thought more like a faint body placed feeling, like an invisible skin, something that wanted to be ‘seen’, perhaps “me”?, difficult to put into words.

Grateful

Victoria