I feel that I am real

[Ashman247]

I love the way you answer with total honesty, and how I can see a progression in your answers towards the realisation. Despite what the mind does, it seems to be becoming clear for you that no duality in perception can actually be found. Would you say thats accurate?

Thank you! I would say this is accurate there is no concrete evidence of duality, although the mind isn’t sure what to make of that or what it means.

Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

They are totally separate from each other. Thought does not experience sound or sensation in the same way that my ears or my skin does. Everything thought experiences is a thought even ‘physical’ experiences.

Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything?

Im not sure of the answer to that question. I guess it depends what you mean by experience . I’m not sure if thought can experience thought. I mean I guess a thought can have a thought of another thought! But I really am not sure . Like a thought inside a thought maybe?

If looked at objectively thought is only that- thought and therefore should not be able to experience anything as it’s like a breath or a heartbeat an involuntary action that happens- but I really do not know what thought can experience. My guess would be it cannot experience anything.

[Skygazer74]

Nice. Yes it baffles the mind a bit, and much of the mind is structured around this illusion or assumption, so that might feel threatened or confused at times.

So what experiences thought if not thought? :)

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

[Ashman247]

So what experiences thought if not thought? :)

I am not sure. I want to say ‘I’ do but I have no actual evidence of that ‘I’ . All my experiences with that ‘I’ are thoughts and concepts, so even by that measure thought must be experiencing thought. As the ‘I’ I believe to be real just seems to be a thought there is no physical or other evidence of its existence.

Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU

The reactions seem to be the mind jumping in and claiming association with the word ‘I’. I at first feel like it is ‘me’ who is reacting but that is my immediate reaction. After the initial reaction I can see that the reactions are simply that reactions and not related to me. The reactions are mainly thoughts related to what mind thinks the word means.

Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

The sound is simply that, a sound. In order to make the sound ‘me’ I have to think that idea into place. But no I am not the sound of ‘I’

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

None of the combination of any of these are me. They are simply sounds or thoughts or a written letter. The mind makes the link that they are me by inserting a connecting thought which i have believed all my life. But the reality is I am not contained in a word or a thought or a sound.

The thought “I exist” is not me- it is a thought .

The thought ‘I’ is again simply a thought. It is not in anyway me. The mind however keeps jumping in and saying that I am ‘I’ which is where confusion creeps in. However using common sense and direct experience what I know myself to be (some sort of conscious entity) is not in anyway the same thing as the written or spoken letter ‘I’.

I know myself to be dynamic deep alive thoughtful conscious etc . The word ‘I’ is a 2 dimensional word written down or a sound spoken- these are not the same thing.

[Skygazer74]

I am not sure. I want to say ‘I’ do but I have no actual evidence of that ‘I’ . All my experiences with that ‘I’ are thoughts and concepts, so even by that measure thought must be experiencing thought.

How else might we describe the space in which thoughts arise and pass? There is more to experience than thought right?


All of these elements of experience, sensing, body, thinking, feeling, bare awareness itself, all happen, it's just the assumption that they are happening in or to a self that is the bind.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can to help get used to the idea that it all can happen without the I or I thoughts, and to deconstructing our usual way of relating to things. So instead of the usual description 'I am doing something, I would like you to label daily activities using simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought -The DE.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

[Ashman247]

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

I did this exercise.

My experience was that for very short glimpses I had a unity experience - an experience of no ‘I’. However these glimpses do not remain. My mind immediately jumps in and says “what does this mean for me, who I am?”

When the glimpses last I feel a connection to that I am observing or hearing. The sound and I do not seem to be separate things.

I can see that In seeing there is no ‘I’ my mind strongly defends this position because it thinks it is the ‘I’ I have identified with all my life.

[Skygazer74]

Hi,

Well it is good that you are having glimpses of clarity, and are aware of the way thought intercedes and tries to protect..the illusion! It is interesting because it is as if thought, or the sense of self or ego, is desperate to defend something that never was there. Like Santa Claus in a way.

There was a question you missed - How else might we describe the space in which thoughts arise and pass?

Lets have another look at this sense of self:

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.


Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

[Ashman247]

How else might we describe the space in which thoughts and pass?

I’m not sure what that space is? I’ve always looked at that space as ‘me’ or ‘my’ mind. But looking at it rationally then I guess the space in which thoughts pass is simply more thoughts. Wow! I guess that means that everything is in thought including the ‘I’ I believed I was as well as ‘my mind’ and everything else.

So this is all thought? Being thought up by no one? And seen by thought or no one? That’s a lot to accept !

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Yes I think i have now seen that a separate unique me is an illusion but because there was no trumpets or lightning when it happened and I feel the same it’s difficult to accept as I can’t seem to find meaning in it.

Does the sense of self have a location?

I would say yes between my eyes. That’s where I appear to be looking out from.


Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Yes the shape of my body and the size of my physical body.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

It seems to say. “I am here, and it is me that you are looking for that you cannot find.”

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

It does it through a thought .

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Sometimes I see it as shimmering sort of like a glittery thing kind of like a sparkly jacket . As strange as that may sound!

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It seems to be like a shadow or yes that’s it a soul. It’s like my sense of self is my soul it has no colour but is like a shadow and is the real me . No sound smell. The sensation is the same sensation as a shadow lurking in a dark corner or something- you know it’s there (or so you think) but you can’t full see or grasp it.

[Skygazer74]

Hi,

I’m not sure what that space is? I’ve always looked at that space as ‘me’ or ‘my’ mind. But looking at it rationally then I guess the space in which thoughts pass is simply more thoughts. Wow! I guess that means that everything is in thought including the ‘I’ I believed I was as well as ‘my mind’ and everything else.

Its helpful to see it as a space, and that that space is not limited - I call it awareness, a spacious field which includes thoughts, sensations, sights, sounds etc. Can you recognise that in your experience? It is helpful as identification with the smaller space of thoughts, or conceiving of a mind the size of the brain and filled with thoughts, can open into a wider space of being. I found it useful to practice opening into the latter if thoughts were catching me.

So this is all thought? Being thought up by no one? And seen by thought or no one? That’s a lot to accept !

This is why it is helpful to separate thought from awareness, for the purpose of enquiry (of course thoughts arise in awareness, and are not truly separate, but for now being in awareness is the solution to being in thoughts or stories)

Can thought see? Can it hear? Can it experience anything?
So look and answer this - can you find something that thinks the thought or sees the thought?

Sometimes I see it as shimmering sort of like a glittery thing kind of like a sparkly jacket . As strange as that may sound!

Lol - nice! I want to move onto the body, but would like to clear up this thing around thoughts before we do.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

[Ashman247]

Can you recognise that in your experience? It is helpful as identification

I can. I’ve also studied a lot of Buddhism which talks about that exact same things so I know what is being spoken of.

Can thought see? Can it hear? Can it experience anything?
So look and answer this - can you find something that thinks the thought or sees the thought?

Answering these questions is trickier than I imagined! Thought cannot see as it is an inanimate non conscious thing . It’s not even an object it’s an idea- a thought . So it cannot see hear or experience anything - it’s like an image on a TV screen.


I could not find anything that thinks the thoughts. I searched and saw that thoughts just arose. I want to say however that ‘I’ Damian see the thoughts. That’s what it seems like. It seems as if there is a thought and I am seeing the thoughts. It also come to think of it seems like I am having the thought although I accept I am not consciously thinking the thoughts. They just appear.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They come from nowhere and just arise and then they just leave my mind.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No nothing

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Nope I have no control over that

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

The answer to all these questions is no. I have no control over what I am thinking and the context or whether they are painful or negative or not. They just come and go. I can’t choose to have just pleasant thoughts.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Before I read the above I would have said my thoughts followed some sort of logical order or sequence. However I can see now that that idea is just another thought.

They are random apart from the thought which says they are not.

It does however still feel like an ‘I’ is observing the thoughts although I accept I am not thinking them.

[Ashman247]

Nic.

I’ve just realised why I am having some difficulty accepting the notion of the self not existing. This is because if I am completely honest and apply the process of what we are doing to God then I have to admit that God as I believe it to be -

I have no direct experience of him only thoughts. I have to admit that God doesn’t exist. I have been a believer my whole life and have grown to believe that God is my Self (capital S) that I am in God and he in me. But these exercises are showing me this is all thought and on direct experience I have 0 evidence for the God I believe in outside of thought. I in fact have 0 evidence for anything except what I can see in this room right now.

This is really destabilising for my personality and mind which I guess perpetuated this lie/ perhaps even acting as the god I believed in.

This is why I have struggled to find meaning in this process as I fear losing God more than losing myself. Yes I have seen the separate I doesn’t exist but I couldn’t accept it as it would have meant saying goodbye literally to God.

Now I don’t know what to do and have to admit I don’t know what or who God is and if he exists although I still feel he must. It’s quite a big shock.

[Skygazer74]

Hi,

Ok quite a lot to respond to, and I will do my best, but let's start with the exercise:

I could not find anything that thinks the thoughts. I searched and saw that thoughts just arose. I want to say however that ‘I’ Damian see the thoughts. That’s what it seems like. It seems as if there is a thought and I am seeing the thoughts. It also come to think of it seems like I am having the thought although I accept I am not consciously thinking the thoughts. They just appear.

Good work, and yes it is hard to answer these questions, especially because the answers involve moving into the part that doesn't answer questions! Ok so it seems like there is someone seeing the thoughts, but in a way, is this not the same as the other kinds of seeing or hearing we looked at - and could not find that somebody seeing or hearing? Have another session of observing thoughts and try to find the seer or hearer of thoughts and let me know how you get on?


You wrote expressing some difficulty with the fact that this enquiry is leading you to question or doubt the existence of God. It is true that it is hard to find God in DE, so I get it, but also true that many people who are in the awakening process still have faith. I read a wonderful book called the Finders, which interviews people from all kinds of different traditions who have landed somewhere on the awakening spectrum, and many of them are from theistic traditions. I am not really religious any more, but I do have a sense of a power and a love at work in the universe. If anything, the breakdown of the sense of separation could almost heighten a sense of proximity to that. It's called different names - God, Tao, Great Spirit, the bodhicitta, but when we stop conceiving of a separate self it's almost as if we can sense that in awareness, and can but be in service to that (without there being a duality) because we are that, or even that it is free to flow through us unimpeded by the selfhood and limiting concepts and desires. I am not trying to give you the answers or tell you how things are, just wanted to pass on some thoughts which may be of use to you.

I suppose that during the enquiry, or on the path to awakening, we have to break down our beliefs and concepts. You may find that your beliefs do change, you may find that your faith returns, grows or disappears. However losing our limiting beliefs about separation and selfhood doesn't mean that we can suddenly know all the answers about life the universe and everything. There is still a great mystery, and how you relate to that is up to you. I feel awe and gratitude, and since LU feel more in touch with beauty in the world (Please don't adopt any new expectations, but also don't lose hope :))

What is important though, more important than feeling we know the answers to these unanswerable questions, is that here and now in this mind there may be suffering, and that we can find a way to end that suffering, and that a large part of that suffering is based upon this sense of a separate self in dualistic relations to everything else, causing craving, aversion, and a sense that we always need to change how things are. So perhaps for now you can find a way to lay aside this worry and larger question, and focus on the separation, and trust that it will work out ok. I hope you find peace with how things are, and an end to that division in awareness that creates an I in relation to not I..

[Ashman247]

Thanks Nic,

I’m actually ok with whatever is revealed from the seeing process I really just want to see what’s true. It’s just a tough thing to swallow knowing you’ve been deluded about a lot of things and have to start looking at things differently.

Have another session of observing thoughts and try to find the seer or hearer of thoughts and let me know how you get on?

Apart from a very strong thought, I find no direct evidence of a seer of my thoughts when I stop and look for pen. The challenge is that my mind seems to be resisting this fact and so seems to create a stronger and stronger sense of self which is claims is the seer.

However just going on direct evidence I see no colour of a seer , no shape size, smell taste or any actual evidence. All I go off is a strong belief there “must” be a seer looking. However the truth is there is no direct evidence of one in any shape or form.

[Skygazer74]

Hi Damian,

I hear you, and recognise the courage in that.

The challenge is that my mind seems to be resisting this fact and so seems to create a stronger and stronger sense of self which is claims is the seer.

Ok so when this happens is it clear that this is just thought, or a defence mechanism? Do you feel clear that it doesn't exist in the way mind would have you think it does?

Let have a look at the body -


Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best wishes,

Nic

[Ashman247]

Can it be known how tall the body is?

With my eyes closed, it is not possible to tell how tall the body is.

Any thought about the body with my eyes closed is a thought. The mind objects and says it can know but the honest truth is there is no direct experience

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Initially the mind says yes it can feel the weight of the body on my bed as I lay down. However when my mind is still I can see that any weight or volume ideas is a thought.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

It does not. If I am still and do not move I can see that all conceptions of the body are ideas. When I move and feel the bed or floor below me then my mind tells me my body is a certain height and weight etc but this is just the mind using sense perception to confirm it’s belief.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is no boundary only sensation. Because the sensations are different mind says there is a boundary. However on direct experience- there is only sensation which has different textures. There is only one sensation of different textures.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

With my eyes closed I can see that inside and outside are just concepts of the mind. DE reveals only space that seems to be infinite. The thing that the mind clings to is the difference in textures which it says mean inside and outside. But looking closely I can see that if I ignore the minds insisting then there is infinite space with apparently different textures.

I cannot find an inside or outside in DE

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

With eyes closed in DE the word body seems to refer to infinite space with no boundaries. That is my actual experience. The mind keeps insisting the body ‘must’ mean a smaller finite thing . However this is not the case in DE. DE reveals the body to be an infinite shapeless space.

[Skygazer74]

Nice looking!

How does it feel to see this?
Is there a sense that this body is 'mine' or 'I?'
If so, how does that manifest?

The challenge is that my mind seems to be resisting this fact and so seems to create a stronger and stronger sense of self which is claims is the seer.
Ok so when this happens is it clear that this is just thought, or a defence mechanism? Do you feel clear that it doesn't exist in the way mind would have you think it does?

Could you answer the above as well please?

If I was to ask you where the self is now, how would you respond?