Only this

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

Say more, how is it experientially obvious?

When there are no thoughts or images of a body, there is no sense of a boundary between "me" and the environment.
There is nothing that feels like "I" begin somewhere and another location where "I" stop and the environment begins.
There are a bunch of sensations felt that aren't located somewhere specific, they are in flux, but even that is saying too much.
There is a certain aliveness felt like a field of energy, but it is neutral.

So if you dont hold on to fantasies about kensho, but rather look to what is your "personal intimate experience" (yes paradoks), is it clear or is it not?

The issue is that it is clear when I look, but it's not lasting.
I don't understand how this clarity can be so obvious at times and be so hidden at other times as if it hasn't been not seen through that this "I" thought is an imposter pretending to be me.

What if no kensho happens like "you" imagined and this is it?

This is very difficult to accept. It can't be just this, says the mind.
Is it truly this simple????!!!! The mind again comes up with these ideas, it has picked up, like what about the honeymoon period? That is not experienced here.
I know this is a concept and the mind is trying to land somewhere.
It wants to make sure that it has achieved a certain milestone, but I can also see that comparison and achievements are attributes of the mind structure.

Is there actually any belief at all that there is a doubter? Or just thoughts of doubt come and go by themselves like everything else?

You touched on something very important here.
Yes, doubt thoughts are coming and going like everything else, but the issue is that it is not obvious all the time.
Again, the imposter thoughts pretend to be the one who is doubting and that thought is believed.
This operating system is still in place most of the time, unfortunately.

[Elad]

Obvious comes by itself when it is there. Not obvious comes by itself when it is there (most of the time). In what should one thing or another supposedly stabilize?


Lets imagine a boyfriend/girlfriend broke up with you. You know it happened. No doubt. Yet find yourself fantasizing about being together every moment where you do not pay attention to what you see and know. It is a little like this.

This is very difficult to accept. It can't be just this, says the mind.
Is it truly this simple????!!!!

It is that simple.

The mind again comes up with these ideas, it has picked up, like what about the honeymoon period? That is not experienced here.

And what is the effect of rejecting this, dreaming of something else?



Here is an exercise for you:


Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

Regarding the following questions:

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

The answer to all these questions is "no" in experience.
The sense of self has clearly no characteristics or attributes.
To be honest, in experience I can't find the sense of self either.
When the mind shuts up for a brief period or even if it doesn't and attention is not paid to what it is saying, there is this vast stillness or isness.
I can't identify with that as a sense of self.
What I can clearly see is that the self that I made is just made out of a bunch thoughts and it can be scary to see that it is truly not there.
So what is there then in my experience?
Just this isness, but I don't get a sense of self from that.
I can't say what I am.
All there is in experience is just this undefinable isness that has nothing to do with this me that I think I am, any sense of self or even a sense of no-self.
I can't define or talk about it as it has no attributes.
This time, I no longer feel confused anymore about this either.
I truly don't know what or who I am and I feel okay with that.

[Elad]

Beautiful Kathy, that's it!

How do you feel about answering a set of questions that aim to check for the clarity of the insight that seems to come through clearly in this last message?

The answers might give rise to more clarification work between us, or, if the answers seem clear to me, 3 other guides will review as well. If they have questions, we will look into them. If they don't have any questions, we will conclude the inquiry here, and you will get an invite to join the LU Facebook group and some other information, opportunities and resources (because this is just one important step, discovery and clarification continues...). We can proceed with this if you feel ready. Are there any questions coming up? There is no rush.

[Elad]

Actually, maybe before that, let me just check, tell me the reactions to reading the following sentence:

"There is no self, no doer, no one in charge and responsible, never has been, never will be"

Just let me know everything that comes up.

[Baremind255]

Hi Elad,

Thank you very much for your patience with me.

When I read the last sentence you posted to contemplate, a lot of deep grief came up to the surface.
I started crying and I don't know why?
The statement absolutely rang true and I don't know, if the separate self is grieving the fact that it never was or if this is something else.
What I also have come to realize more and more is that all these thoughts appearing in the now are trying to cover up the fact that there is only this and regardless of what they say, there is no past, future, me or others. There is no escape from the here and now, there is only "this".

[Elad]

Hi dear Kathy,

No the separate self does not grief, grief just happens, as old beliefs are let go of, beliefs that also had a sweetness, like a lovely movie.

Feelings continue, everything continues, just no separate self controlling or choosing it. Even choice and control and preferences continue (conventionally speaking), and normal human life and relationships. There is just no separate self in the center of it.

Let the grief flow through. It is like a weather system and it will pass.

Pain comes and goes, is a normal inevitable part of life.

Write me again tomorrow how you are, how things unfold.

[Baremind255]

Dear Elad,
For some reason I didn't receive the email that you had replied to my post.
Since you always reply so promptly, worry came up.
Finally today, I wanted to make sure that I actually had submitted my reply, when I noticed that you had already posted your answer.

Regarding the grief, it is exactly like you described. It's like the weather.
There is no one controlling it, it comes on several times a day, there is a bursting out in tears, which is fully felt and allowed and then it passes.
There is a sense of freedom and elation even in the grief.

[Elad]

Dear Kathy,

Yes, there seems to be something wrong with the email notification. Tech is on it.

Re your answer - beautiful!

So, returning to my question/suggestion from a couple of messages back:

How do you feel about answering a set of questions that aim to check for the clarity of the insight that seems to come through clearly in this last message?

The answers might give rise to more clarification work between us, or, if the answers seem clear to me, 3 other guides will review as well. If they have questions, we will look into them. If they don't have any questions, we will conclude the inquiry here, and you will get an invite to join the LU Facebook group and some other information, opportunities and resources (because this is just one important step, discovery and clarification continues...). We can proceed with this if you feel ready. Are there any questions coming up? There is no rush.

[Elad]

Dear Kathy, how are things moving? What is clear, what is not?

[Baremind255]

Hi dear Elad,

I apologize for this very late reply.
What has become clear here is that we have exhausted all intellectual or rather conceptual routes, with the help of your guidance and the exercises you have given me.
The more "I" look in pure experience, the more it becomes clear that thoughts are creating an illusion of a me that can move away from "this" by creating a non- existing past or future to escape into.
There is no escape, there is nowhere else.
This " isness" is not affected by anything that thoughts say.
It has become clear that the "me" is created by thought and that it has created the illusion that there is a relationship between it and this other part that judges it, that wants to change it, that thinks it needs to understand more, do more and that it needs to get somewhere or something.
This is not possible and it is not true.

[Elad]

Hey Kathy,

Good to hear from you. At this point we normally ask a few questions to check if anything can get further clarified. Please answer these questions bellow, freshly from direct experience:



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue?



4) What was the moment where clarity clicked; describe what happened.



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control (separately).



6) What makes things happen? How does it work?



7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.



8) Anything to add?

[Baremind255]

Hi dear Elad,
I looked at the questions and some discomfort arose here that I am not able to answer them truthfully.
When it's asking when there was a moment when clarity clicked, I can't answer that, because I can't recall a specific moment in time where I feel something hit me on the head and I got some clarity.
Questions 5,6 and 7, I don't have a clear understanding of yet, to be able to answer.
Here is what I can say based on experience so far:
Thoughts and emotions appear, the thoughts claim that there is a reference point called me and all they say is about that me.
That's an illusion. The thoughts are self referential and they create this persona and they themselves realate to it.
When this is believed, it creates a "reality" that isn't there.
As I mentioned to you in my previous post in experience there is only this undefinable isness and the mind can't be with that.
It constantly wants to run away from the isness by going into the past, future, daydreaming...etc.
What is clearly seen however that this isness always is and can't be tarnished.
There is also a strong feeling of the futility of understanding or conceptualization.
There is a diminishing of wanting to understand or to land somewhere.
There is an okayness with confusion and not-knowing.
I apologize for not feeling in a position to answer these questions yet, but it this is what's arising here right now.

[Elad]

Hey Kathy, it is great you are so sincere. And no problem at all, sounds like a little more clarifying can be done.

As for the "final click", for some people its more like a sky gradually clearing and suddenly its clear without any particular moment where it happened.

As for "what makes things work", could any answer be more then a story?

I mean, we use stories/interpretations/theories/mythologies/etc for normal life, some of them are functional or helpful or enjoyable, etc, conventionally speaking, but:

In direct experience, does reality/the mystery explain itself?


As for the questions around control, choice and responsiblity. Here are a couple of exercises to look at that.


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


-----------


Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

Can you find anywhere where Kathy autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.


Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

Can anything be found for which Kathy is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?


---------------


Finally, as for the story that "mind can't tolerate being in direct experience", can this mind that cannot tolerate direct experience be found? Or is that just another story, another thought?

[Elad]

Hi Kathy, letting you know I think of you from time to time and how things are unfolding. No need to respond before you are ready.