Looking to find a self

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing? (If in doubt take a look).

It is not possible to prevent thought from appearing.

Noticing these expectations is the beginning of recognising the illusion of 'self' for what it is.

If we investigate we discover that moments of recognition or 'waking up' to the illusion of a 'self', recognising it , do happen, but what makes the noticing happen?

I can see the noticing and recognising happening automatically. It's like being snapped out of a dream.

What are these assumptions really? They are beliefs that have become virtually unconscious. First it's important to shine some light on them, recognise them for what they are. There can be a wish to hold on to these ideas, as if what's right here, right now will never be 'enough' and is 'unsatisfactory'. But its important to start to see that 'unsatisfactoriness'' is also a concept and an assumption. What is so 'wrong' with what simply IS?

There has been a subtle wish to hold on to some expectations. Especially the concept that seeing through the illusion would improve experience, particularly around negative self referential thought.

But is seen that unsatisfactoriness is also thought which kicks off an so-called negative energetic sensation in the body. Leading to the mind labelling all of experience as unsatisfactory.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

But is seen that unsatisfactoriness is also thought which kicks off an so-called negative energetic sensation in the body. Leading to the mind labelling all of experience as unsatisfactory.

That’s interesting isn’t it? I wonder how habitual or ingrained that particular labelling is?

Not that “anger” doesn’t ever happen. It can. But what if labelling things generally or repeatedly as “unsatisfactory” seems to colour everything that way? Then there could be an idea that someone had to escape something bad?

Love

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

That’s interesting isn’t it? I wonder how habitual or ingrained that particular labelling is?

I'd say extremely ingrained as a key component of seeking. Not just spiritual but anything else that will alleviate it.

Not that “anger” doesn’t ever happen. It can. But what if labelling things generally or repeatedly as “unsatisfactory” seems to colour everything that way? Then there could be an idea that someone had to escape something bad?

This is more fuzzy to me. I need to look at it more. 🤔

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. Not that “anger” doesn’t ever happen. It can. But what if labelling things generally or repeatedly as “unsatisfactory” seems to colour everything that way? Then there could be an idea that someone had to escape something bad?
This is more fuzzy to me. I need to look at it more

We do need to explore expectations because these tend to stand in the way of clarity and can create disappointment (as the expected outcome doesn’t materialise).

It would be helpful to know if there was somewhere that you heard or first learned the idea of “unsatisfactoriness”? This is a term I recognise from certain schools of Buddhism and an approach to things that stresses ‘suffering’ and a need to ‘move beyond,.

The significant issue with this for many people can be that it presents an interpretation of life as only ugly and painful as if this is fact, when it may have nothing to do with what can really be noticed here and now in immediate experience. What is labelled Ugliness and Pain may be experienced sometimes but we are simply told that “life is suffering” and of course then everything focuses on the idea of having to transcend suffering. And in this way of viewing it’s always “ my suffering”; there’s a big emphasis on a supposed “me” and then the idea of “getting rid of suffering “ for a “me”. That’s not how things work.

For very many people the assumption that “all is suffering” is very unhelpful not because unhappiness never happens but because it is an assumption, a narrative about life and not from looking directly at what’s actually going on. Any expectation tends to involve an assumption. If those can be dropped clarity can appear.



Love

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

We do need to explore expectations because these tend to stand in the way of clarity and can create disappointment (as the expected outcome doesn’t materialise).

I find my mind has a lot of them stored, I try and just ignore them when they come up. Some are reaccuring. Like:
- I can expect a shift (or multiple) or moment of clarity
- I can expect to see Non-duality
- I can expect to suffer less or have a better experience
- I can expect to be closer with God or even experience oneness
- I can expect to be more in a flow with less resistance to things in my life.
- I can expect to have the sense of self drop away in a moment of clarity.
- I might be able to get over anxiety that comes up from time to time.
- I can expect to make a million dollars 💰 (maybe not this one)

Some of them, we have definitely covered before. I’ll let you know if more come up.

It would be helpful to know if there was somewhere that you heard or first learned the idea of “unsatisfactoriness”? This is a term I recognise from certain schools of Buddhism and an approach to things that stresses ‘suffering’ and a need to ‘move beyond .’

I first heard it about 9 years ago reading a book about Buddhism. It certainly puts a negative slant on everything. I mainly view suffering in terms of those repeated negative thoughts everyone gets involving a self and transcending those. It's like perhaps if I get to the bottom of this no-self stuff, they will lose their grip. It's almost like a self improvement game in a ironic way 😂.

With thanks,
Harry

[Harry1]

Also a quick questions. Does working on positive thinking and limiting beliefs from a mental health perspective, stand in the way of clarity? Like if I want to improve my thinking to be calmer, better at life etc.?

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

It's tremendously useful to have pulled out and written down these various expectations. Well done.

Imagine wanting to be able to see up into the sky on a clear day so much that you cannot quite trust that it could be so simple.

From a mix of long anticipation and things we have heard about 'enlightenment' thought-stories have developed. These are a bit like large bits of painted mental scenery that are somehow in the way of just seeing clearly. But at times they have seemed alluring or magical or like promises of no more suffering (etc).

You get the picture?. It is actually ridiculously simple when the penny drops that this stuff was always just in the way of the otherwise open view :-)

. I mainly view suffering in terms of those repeated negative thoughts everyone gets involving a self and transcending those. It's like perhaps if I get to the bottom of this no-self stuff, they will lose their grip.

They might. It's not guaranteed, though it can happen. Perhaps, instead of 'transcending suffering' it would be better to think in terms of 'awakening'. Awakening can happen. Waking up to what's actually going on and seeing things as they actually are instead of believing that there's a fixed "I" , separate from everything else.

Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Oops. I forgot to address this:

. Also a quick questions. Does working on positive thinking and limiting beliefs from a mental health perspective, stand in the way of clarity? Like if I want to improve my thinking to be calmer, better at life etc.?

It needn't. Do you feel that it could stand in the way?

Sometimes the language of affirmations or meditations that keep pointing to positive qualities of "me" or "I" could be a little confusing because of the continual references to "self".

But sometimes it's as easy as stripping out the reference to a self and just keeping the positive intention in these phrases. It's really interesting that most sentences that reference "I" or "me" can be rewritten so as to make perfect sense without the "person".

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

All of this makes perfect sense.

From a mix of long anticipation and things we have heard about 'enlightenment' thought-stories have developed. These are a bit like large bits of painted mental scenery that are somehow in the way of just seeing clearly. But at times they have seemed alluring or magical or like promises of no more suffering (etc).

I can see how they are obscuring seeing. Thinking is slippery like that. Do they drop of their own accord, once seen for what they are?

They might. It's not guaranteed, though it can happen. Perhaps, instead of 'transcending suffering' it would be better to think in terms of 'awakening'. Awakening can happen. Waking up to what's actually going on and seeing things as they actually are instead of believing that there's a fixed "I" , separate from everything else.

I see. Keeping it as the nuts and bolts. Simply seeing the illusion. Nothing more.

needn't. Do you feel that it could stand in the way?

Yes it can stand in the way if it keeps obscuring my vision. There could be too much confusing input. It's easy to get tangled in all this thinking stuff. I think I've processed a lot of the limiting beliefs anyway. I think I need to set it all aside now and let this inquiry take hold.

[JonathanR]

I can see how they are obscuring seeing. Thinking is slippery like that. Do they drop of their own accord, once seen for what they are?

They can. A lot of the wind can drop out of their sails, so to speak once it’s seen that they are just thoughts referencing an imagined “I”.

Keeping it as the nuts and bolts. Simply seeing the illusion. Nothing more.

To see the illusion is to be free from limiting beliefs about a”me”. Or at least to see that what you are is not what thoughts “say” you are. Seeing the illlusion goes hand in hand with freedom to notice and enjoy what’s actually going on, a world of sensations, of aliveness.


Love

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

They can. A lot of the wind can drop out of their sails, so to speak once it’s seen that they are just thoughts referencing an imagined “I”.

I believe it’s already starting to happen but no-self has not been seen yet. I can see when I-thoughts pop up and these expectation thoughts. Some have lost their power.

To see the illusion is to be free from limiting beliefs about a”me”. Or at least to see that what you are is not what thoughts “say” you are. Seeing the illlusion goes hand in hand with freedom to notice and enjoy what’s actually going on, a world of sensations, of aliveness

This sounds kind of nice. Just being present with what is.

What should be looked at next?

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

Seeing the illlusion goes hand in hand with freedom to notice and enjoy what’s actually going on, a world of sensations, of aliveness
This sounds kind of nice. Just being present with what is.

What should be looked at next?

Well, this very quality. There’s no self but there is life. Start to notice how everything just is.

Did you start any of it?

Do you make life happen?

Do you create thoughts?

Is the “I” which appears as a thought a real, separate person?

Does that thought-I make anything happen?


Love

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

Feeling alot of confusion and overwhelm come up at the moment in this inquiry. Not sure why. Feels like the I thought is throwing it up.

Did you start any of it?

Do you make life happen?

Do you create thoughts?

Is the “I” which appears as a thought a real, separate person?

Does that thought-I make anything happen?

‘I’ did not start any of it.

‘I’ do not make life happen.

‘I’ do not create thoughts.

The next question is harder. The ‘I’ that appears as a thought, can only be found in thought. But on the contrary thinking wants to ascribe the totality of experience to an I. As in the body, the typing on the keyboard, the looking etc, all of it collectively makes up an I. We may have covered this before.

However, I tested whether thinking can make anything happen. For example a thought cannot make an arm lift in the air. That is where I got up to.

Frustration is coming up a bit.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. The next question is harder. The ‘I’ that appears as a thought, can only be found in thought. But on the contrary thinking wants to ascribe the totality of experience to an I.

Yes, somehow thought does come up with this idea.

But can a thought "want" to ascribe?

What if the ascribing is automatic, along with an unchallenged belief that somehow, somewhere, there's something behind that thought?

But what if there has never been such a one?

What if it's just a story that automatically includes an assumption of "me"?

. As in the body, the typing on the keyboard, the looking etc, all of it collectively makes up an I.

Only as thought ABOUT an 'I'.

The body, the typing on keyboard , the looking, all of these simply happen. This can be seen. Thought simply carries the assumption of an entity and as long as it is believed to be a "me", "in my body" the illusion is not yet recognised

Have a good look round in what is currently labelled "body" to see if there is a self-entity "in" there or not ?

The frustration is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it can be the necessary build-up of energy prior to seeing that there is no self.


Love

Jon

[Harry1]

Yes, somehow thought does come up with this idea.

But can a thought "want" to ascribe?

What if the ascribing is automatic, along with an unchallenged belief that somehow, somewhere, there's something behind that thought? Now

But what if there has never been such a one?

What if it's just a story that automatically includes an assumption of "me"?

I can see the belief come up quite clearly and it’s very strong. It’s automatic and does try and say there is a subject of experience. Interesting to watch a counter-belief, that there is no self also popup too. Seeing through has not happened, so it’s just more distracting mind concept.

Only as thought ABOUT an 'I'.

The body, the typing on keyboard , the looking, all of these simply happen. This can be seen. Thought simply carries the assumption of an entity and as long as it is believed to be a "me", "in my body" the illusion is not yet recognised

Have a good look round in what is currently labelled "body" to see if there is a self-entity "in" there or not ?

The frustration is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it can be the necessary build-up of energy prior to seeing that there is no self.

I keep trying to look but thinking is really thick and distracting at the moment. It’s like thinking is throwing up confusion/mind wandering in the way.

With thanks,
Harry