Looking to find a self

[Harry1]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there may not be a me inside directing actions, thoughts, feelings etc.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see through the illusion of the seperate self. I feel that it would make life simpler and easier without a self to cling on to. I have been wanting to awaken for some time now and ideally this will be a process which ends in awakening.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To be coached through exercises where I will ultimately see through any separation/self. I would expect the guide to be patient and help me with my specific obstacles in seeing. I expect it to be a pretty casual back and forth. I will examine the pointers everyday.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have practiced meditation and spiritual inquiry for several years. I practiced spiritual inquiry most recently focussing on seeing through conditioning, healing traumas and dropping spiritual concepts.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

Pleased to meet you. I can point for you, if you like?

I read your intro. Very nice, thank you.

I probably won't coach you, to be honest. At least, I won't be teaching anything. There's nothing to teach. It's all about noticing, rather than taking on beliefs.

I'm glad that you already mean to examine pointers each day. That's a good idea and a good pace. I don't know about 'casual', as sometimes there can be an intensity to these inquiries but friendly , yes definitely :-) .

So, if you feel ready for a first question, please tell me what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

Warm regards

Jon

[Harry1]

Great to e-meet you Jonathan. Glad we can do this together.

I probably won't coach you, to be honest. At least, I won't be teaching anything. There's nothing to teach. It's all about noticing, rather than taking on beliefs.

I understand.

So, if you feel ready for a first question, please tell me what is your current understanding of what "you" are?

To be honest I have always thought I am a person, a self, which seems to be a bundle of thoughts, memories, bodily sensations and a feeling of being.

I have assumed that there is a self here called Harry directing the show. Someone sitting behind the eyes. It feels as though that is true.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. To be honest I have always thought I am a person, a self, which seems to be a bundle of thoughts, memories, bodily sensations and a feeling of being.

I have assumed that there is a self here called Harry directing the show. Someone sitting behind the eyes. It feels as though that is true.

Thank you for this.

Alright. Based on what you have told me I will ask you questions.

. To be honest I have always thought I am a person,

Are you sure that those thoughts are "yours"?

It's worth taking a look.

Do you think thoughts ?

See if it is possible to create a thought? Right now. Have a go at it.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?
Try preventing thoughts from appearing.

What's the experience?

All best,

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

#

It's worth taking a look.

Do you think thoughts ?

See if it is possible to create a thought? Right now. Have a go at it.

Is it possible to prevent thoughts from appearing?
Try preventing thoughts from appearing.

There are automatic thoughts that pop in but then i feel like I can generate thoughts too. It’s strange. This happens when I count breaths in meditation etc. There is a strong ‘feeling’ of me making these thoughts.

When I try and stop thoughts they seem to get more subtle and wispy. I can’t fully stop them. They dart in and out. Sometimes in the foreground, sometimes in the background.

I think the main point is that they ‘feel’ like my thoughts and that I’m doing them, even when I’m trying to stop them.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. There are automatic thoughts that pop in but then i feel like I can generate thoughts too. It’s strange. This happens when I count breaths in meditation etc. There is a strong ‘feeling’ of me making these thoughts.

I hear what you are saying. And it is very common for people to speak about "feeling".

But let's play with language a little here. What if we change it to "there's a strong impression of me" or "there's a convincing illusion that there really is a me", or "there's a long-held assumption that there is a me"?

Language is significant. For example. You've mentioned "I feel like I can generate" and "there is a strong feeling of me"...(etc). So, if it's a feeling, how is it sensed? Where is the sensation? Or do you mean it metaphorically?

All the best
Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

I see what you mean about language. A shift in language changes the feel of things. Makes things less personal

But there is still a strong impression that there is a me that can will thoughts to appear.

I think the controlling thinking illusion is made up of a couple of parts. There is a sense of knowingness that arises with the thought. This is the feeling and it happens in the head area.

There is a sense that ‘I’ know a thought is going to come up before it does. That ‘I’ willed it.

Then the thoughts sounds like “Harry’s” voice, which make it even more persuasive. It’s a compelling illusion.

It’s all felt/sensed in the head area.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry,

. But there is still a strong impression that there is a me that can will thoughts to appear.

Are you expecting that to disappear?

This is what we tend to call "the illusion'. It does tend to appear a lot.

But like any impression it's exactly that . An impression, an illusion. Part of its appearance is to appear "strong".

Can an impression "will" anything? Can an impression do anything?

. There is a sense that ‘I’ know a thought is going to come up before it does. That ‘I’ willed it.

Do you mean "a sense" metaphorically speaking? Or is there an actual sensation?

. This is the feeling and it happens in the head area.

So it's a feeling, rather than a thought? Could you please describe to me what it's like to feel this feeling in the head?

. It’s all felt/sensed in the head area.

With which of the senses is this experienced?

I realise that it's possible that my questions may seem
odd at this stage but actually they are precise and the intention is to be very helpful. So do please give them consideration.

Many thanks

Jon

[Harry1]

#
Hi Jonathan,

Are you expecting that to disappear?

Yes and I was expecting to see through it if I paid close enough attention to the thoughts.

Can an impression "will" anything? Can an impression do anything?

No an impression cannot do anything. It’s interesting I get the same ‘impression’ with supposedly wilful movement of the body.

Do you mean "a sense" metaphorically speaking? Or is there an actual sensation?

It’s just thinking and It’s part of that sense. I see and feel the thinking in my awareness. And the intentional/wilful thought process takes on a different quality to random automatic thoughts. It seems more substantial, real and directed.

So it's a feeling, rather than a thought? Could you please describe to me what it's like to feel this feeling in the head

I think it’s a thought. It’s the whole intentional thinking process that makes the appearance/illusion that thoughts can be thought at will. The thoughts seem heavier and more direct.

I realise that it's possible that my questions may seem
odd at this stage but actually they are precise and the intention is to be very helpful. So do please give them consideration.

I appreciate the questions, thank you. They are definitely challenging.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. Are you expecting that to disappear?
Yes and I was expecting to see through it if I paid close enough attention to the thoughts.

If you were under the impression that there is someone standing a few yards behind you, but you're not sure, how can you be sure that there really is, or is not?

Whilst I may assume that there is an entity there others might say "no. There's nobody there. You're imagining it" . So, how do you suppose that you could move from imagining that there is an entity to knowing for sure, one way or another?

. It’s just thinking and It’s part of that sense. I see and feel the thinking in my awareness. And the intentional/wilful thought process takes on a different quality to random automatic thoughts. It seems more substantial, real and directed.

This is all intellectualisation, or imagination. Its a bunch of ideas about what's imagined to be going on.

. It’s the whole intentional thinking process that makes the appearance/illusion that thoughts can be thought at will.

But you were just saying that that it's "substantial, real and directed". ?


Jon

[Harry1]

# Hi Jonathan,

If you were under the impression that there is someone standing a few yards behind you, but you're not sure, how can you be sure that there really is, or is not?

Whilst I may assume that there is an entity there others might say "no. There's nobody there. You're imagining it" . So, how do you suppose that you could move from imagining that there is an entity to knowing for sure, one way or another?

You would look behind you and closely.

This is all intellectualisation, or imagination. Its a bunch of ideas about what's imagined to be going on

Yeh that came out as a bunch of gobbledygook 😂. Rest assured I’m trying my best not to intellectualise but look.

But you were just saying that that it's "substantial, real and directed". ?

I think I’ve tangled myself up here.. .

You originally asked me what it’s like to feel the feeling In my head which make thoughts seem intentional/willed. I don’t think it’s a feeling but an impression/judgement if what’s going on.

Some thinking just seems controllable. Like I can will my mind to say certain things like counting breathes or full sentences.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. You would look behind you and closely.

Yes. The only way to find out for sure is to look.

.Yeh that came out as a bunch of gobbledygook 😂. Rest assured I’m trying my best not to intellectualise but look.

I'm so glad you said this. 😊. Thank you.

. I think I’ve tangled myself up here.. .

No worries Harry.

.You originally asked me what it’s like to feel the feeling In my head which make thoughts seem intentional/willed. I don’t think it’s a feeling but an impression/judgement of what’s going on.

That's very helpful. Helpful to your enquiry here to be able to notice thoughts, how they appear. How they tend to present a narrative or commentary and that actual sensations are rather different from this.

. Some thinking just seems controllable. Like I can will my mind to say certain things like counting breathes or full sentences.

Yes I know what youre saying. It can seem that because thoughts about needing to buy paint for the back wall of the house appear and then getting into the car, driving to the store, finding and buying paint all happen, that 'someone', 'me', is coordinating it all. ?

That's how thoughts present it. There's an 'I' that 'thinks' and 'does' things. The 'I' appears to be a constant, a controller. And certainly language, words, enshrine this view. 'I', 'me', 'you', 'them',' mine'.

And I get it, the breath-counting happens. The paint gets bought. Without a 'self', how is anything complex or apparently organised happening? (And yet it all does).

This is why I asked you to try to prevent thoughts from appearing, and to try originating s thought.

Its well worth experimenting with this again

Precisely what happens in the attempt to prevent thoughts from appearing?

Can you find the exact moment when a 'you' brings forth a thought?

All the best

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

I’m still looking and will have a reply back soon.

Cheers,
Harry

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathan,

Precisely what happens in the attempt to prevent thoughts from appearing?

There is no stopping thoughts. Even when straining really hard and intending to stop, they keep coming.

Can you find the exact moment when a 'you' brings forth a thought?

No I cannot. Thoughts come in a blink of the eye. They are just there and disappear. Nobody is doing it, it seems to be automatic.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. There is no stopping thoughts. Even when straining really hard and intending to stop, they keep coming

Yes that does seem to be true.

. No I cannot. Thoughts come in a blink of the eye. They are just there and disappear. Nobody is doing it, it seems to be automatic.

Given what you've found , is it possible to prevent the thought "I" from appearing?