Hi

[Philosoraptr]

No the seeing just happens

Great, yes seeing takes place without any doing. Is there a seer to be found in direct experience? Does a sensation, sound, thought content, or color do the seeing or contain a seer?

The mind/body story of a me

Can you expand on what you mean by a mind body story that gets caught in thought? Is the story independent of thought?

[Matty317]

Hey Sid,

Long time no speak, hope all is well with you.
I am now keen to continue this investigation.

[Matty317]

Is there a seer to be found in direct experience? Does a sensation, sound, thought content, or color do the seeing or contain a seer?

No seeer to be found. Seeing happens without anyone doing the seeing

Can you expand on what you mean by a mind body story that gets caught in thought? Is the story independent of thought?

This has taken some thought to move on from this. But yes this was a good catch by you of a thought about a thought. A story within a story. 2 story's within a larger story.

[Lubo]

Hi Matt,
I'm Lubo and I'll be glad to continue with you, if you are OK with this?
I read the last 3 pages and you did a nice work!

Can you expand on what you mean by a mind body story that gets caught in thought? Is the story independent of thought?

This has taken some thought to move on from this. But yes this was a good catch by you of a thought about a thought. A story within a story. 2 story's within a larger story.

Who can think that there is an I ?

If there is no I,
but there is a belief that there is -
who makes this belief?


lubo

[Matty317]

Hey Lubo. Thanks for taking this on! And nice to meet u.

If there is no I,
but there is a belief that there is -
who makes this belief?

The default understanding is that there is this persistent ever present "I" in the background of each layer of revelation witnessing that there is no "I", upon investigation each layer is seen through. The witness to each investigation seems to be present by proxy.

[Lubo]

Hey Matt,
Nice to meet u, too :)

Tank you for sharing this wonderful story about the I.
There are some questions, they will help you where to look.
Notice what is here, in this very moment.

Do you really can point two things?
That, which is here on the one hand and "this persistent ever present I" witnessing what is here on the other?
Are there two things?
Who is the first one?
Who arrives second?
How this story explains the label non-dual, no2 ?

You missed one of the two questions, that I sent you in the previous post.
Here it is again

Who can think that there is an I ?

Don't rush, take your time.
I'll be glad if you reply to each question individually.


lubo

[Matty317]

Hello again,

Thanks for your response. I can feel the clarity oozing out of your post. It feels that each nudge back on course I recieve during this investigation seems so obvious after the moment regardless of how clear I could see my point.

Do you really can point two things?
That, which is here on the one hand and "this persistent ever present I" witnessing what is here on the other?

No I cant in real experience one is here now one is a dream/story/thought

Are there two things?

No just real experience and a thought

Who is the first one?

Just a realization/understanding of no i

Who arrives second?

This is the thought

How this story explains the label non-dual, no2 ?

My story assumes past teachings of a witness as a real experience and my thought assumes this is a real experience but upon further investigation helped by your prompt this is clearly seen through.

You missed one of the two questions, that I sent you in the previous post.
Here it is again

Who can think that there is an I ?

There is no real experience that can think. Just the story that appears within thoughts that arise in most cases in a persistent fashion . So this in itself is an illusion. BTW this is a great question......show stopping 😀

[Lubo]

Hey Matt, :)

I'm so happy reading your replay. There are much clarity and freshness :)

show stopping 😀

I'm laughing with you :))))

Is there anything else you would like to explore?

Much love
lubo

[Matty317]

Hi Lubo.

Is there anything else you would like to explore?

So the understanding of "no i" is clear when thought is engaged upon investigating. At all other times there is the suffering that is present with the "i" attachment. The story of Santa is not seen at all times and although there have been many mini lightbulb moments there is still the default suffering as a general state. So the feeling of being at the gate does not feature other than at times of concentration on this investigation. My expectations suggest less suffering and attachment to "the story" would be apparent at this stage.

[Lubo]

Hi Matt,

I understand clearly what you mean. Matt continues to appear in everyday life and hе must deal with the world ...suffering...
Do not worry. The truth has already been recognised. But that doesn't mean Matt will stop showing up seemingly.
It's like suspecting you forgot the oven on. You go to the oven to check and see that it has been turned off.
Here is the same. Every moment when Matt is seemingly here, just check. After some time Matt seemingly will be here, but there will be no trust in it. I know this is hard work, the falling of all patterns and believes can take months, years, even a whole life.
Here in the forum we have after care group.

When Matt is here,
You can check with some of these questions:

Can you find an I who believe that Matt is here?
If you don't believe in the story about Matt, who you will be?

Watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaLwaQEQZdM

So the understanding of "no i" is clear when thought is engaged upon investigating.

Can the thoughts know that Matt does not exist?

Аnd one more thing, my unusual advice is to laugh. To laugh as much as possible and more often :) The whole life is a big joke :)
Laugh with them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG-LuJ-a-Ok

Write back what is coming.
Much love,
lubo

[Matty317]

Hey Lubo.

That video is very good and really brings all into focus I have watched it a couple of times but feel like I will watch it more times . The laughter one is a surprise but laughter is great for sure! Your simple contribution and the video have changed a lot to what comes up today. Progress to a place where progress is not required feels like it is inching closer and closer, if that makes sense. I will let the checking continue.... Thanks for your swift responses btw very efficient and hugely appreciated.

[Lubo]

Hi Matt,
I'm glad that the disappointment of seeing through illusion has been replaced by curiosity :)
Yes. Тhe change of understanding shows life as it is.
Sometimes it is instantaneous, and sometimes it is a slow, gentle process. It was slow for me and has been going on for two years now. Guiding helps me a lot to keep the process going.

Check in your daily life:
1.Is there a doer: whatever you seem to be doing, check if there is a doer. For example, while driving, if there is no belief in Matt, how does driving happen?
Is there a Matt who is responsible?

In the same way, see if it can be found:

2. A thinker?

3.Is there someone with free will?

Explore all this in your everyday life. Unexpected even for you :)

Cheers :)
lubo

[Matty317]

Hi Lubo ,

The flip flopping of clarity of "seeing" is definately happening. I am continuing to watch the video you posted. This is quite insightful in the respect of talking about what we are , as opposed to what we are not. In that respect it provides something tangiable to focus on in times of need when lost in "self".

[Matty317]

Check in your daily life:

1.Is there a doer: whatever you seem to be doing, check if there is a doer. For example, while driving, if there is no belief in Matt, how does driving happen?

There is no doer, life happens , the body moves , it becomes hungry thirsty and it is fed watered. Blinking happens , heart beats , legs move in front if each other , excercise happens.

Is there a Matt who is responsible?

No all these things happen of their own volition

In the same way, see if it can be found:

2. A thinker?

Thoughts happen they arrive and disappear , thinking happens without a me to think.

3.Is there someone with free will?

There is not a someone but there is an element of free will happening. At least it appears so. One thought that crops up says "I need to do this differently ", at that time things happen in the way the thought dictates.

Eg. Whilst swimming a thought appears that says the technique needs adjusting , upon which the body moves differently so the technique is improved.

This is all a happening in its entirety but can easily be confused as free will. Eg. I see my stroke is ineffective (thought) so I instruct my arms/legs to move differently be more effective (I am the doer). Result stroke changes to be more effective.

Now as I know that the I is fictional that would indicate that free will is apparent and free will is present but there is no I responsible for it.

Does this make sense?

[Lubo]

Thanks for the honest reply,
When you investigated the doer you find that You are not the body :)
You are not the thoughts. You are not

all these things happen of their own volition

but
Is there you, me, that know this things? For whom they happen ?

"I need to do this differently ", at that time things happen in the way the thought dictates.

Is there someone who choose this order? Choose the thoughts? Is there a connection between thoughts and movements? Show me.
Does the thought know the movements? Can they dictate? Really?

Show me the I, who is there, but it is not responsible for it.

cheers,
lubo