Untie the lines! Stop shuffling and deal!

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Bennett, ..aargh!, i feel for you. i do (vaguely) remember such periods of hopelessness. Even me telling you that they are definitely fleeting, probably won't make you feel better.

I get all this and I totally dont get it.

Yes, and isn't it amazing that when you "get it", you totally do, and when you don't "get it", you totally don't. Does one cancel out the other?

I have the same stupid pointless arguments with my wife,

Ha yes. The moments when i lose it are 99% with my wife too. Ram Dass once said "if you think that you are enlightened, spend a weekend with your family" (maybe he said "parents") My question here is "do you eventually have a realization that you were lost in story?
It doesn't matter if it is hours or even days later. If the thought arises that you were totally immersed in some story, you are on your way to having that realization sooner and sooner until eventually you will recognize that you are about to go into one, before you do.
How many years of habitual responding is behind this "stupid pointless" stuff with your wife? (rhetorical question)
Here’s a story about conditioning (habit) and how to change it.
In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.
When we become aware that they are no longer useful, there are two ways that they can be decommissioned.
They can be pruned or they can atrophy from lack of use.
Neither of these appear to be able to be consciously controlled, but we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor. It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.
On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

Just live with this for a day or two before reporting back.

with great love (and compassion)

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hey Vince
I'm still playing with that exercise you gave me. And thanks for the understanding words...they did help. I feel like a junky coming off a particularly bad and prolonged fix and youre helping me thru the DT's.
I'm going to spend another few days with this and will get back to you. Dont know who is choosing to do it, or why, but it is happening. That brain pattern rewrite takes awhile. Some deep (neural) grooves there!

TTFN

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

'evening Capt'n,

I feel like a junky coming off a particularly bad and prolonged fix

This is a really apt analogy. More than you might think.

I'm going to spend another few days with this and will get back to you

No probs.

love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Howdy Vince.

The looking continues....problem is..all I find is groves (of the mental type).....neuronal pathways deeply etched in my brain Its like the groves in an LP....all there is is groves! That's what makes the music appear to come out of the speakers. Groves = stories.

Step one I have down, noticing the intent to change...its the laughing part that escapes me most of the time especially when the groves just come fast and furious and seem to pile in one upon the other in a big jumbled mass. I am failing to find the humor and thus perspective in that. So I'm not getting to step 3.." imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one." I'm still at it though, and occasionally do manage a chuckle or a wry grin.

I am finding myself in this very emotional flat space...nothing really excites me, I'm not interested in much, but nothing really is bumming me out either. Just Blah.

Will report more of this looking soon.

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Bennett, Ok, let's reset this. i imagine that you are having an emotional response to this? Once the procedure is understood there is nothing to do but (hopefully) relax and watch it happen. i read a quote this morning that says it all.
"Surrender is not an act, it’s a realization. It’s not something you do,
it’s something you see. You don’t do it, you stop not doing it."
Recognizing that you are in a groove (lost in storyland) will also bring up the trigger to laugh. Now it doesn't matter how long after the (groove) happening it is seen. Minutes, hours, days, weeks. It doesn't matter. It is the association of the recognition with laughing that we are looking to establish.
It doesn't take much practice before the recognition happens sooner and sooner after the event. Eventually, it will (occasionally in the beginning) happen during the event and then even as it's about to happen.
Do you recognize the feelings of hopelessness as an event?
Sometimes the thought stories are buried and all you have to go on is unpleasant emotions. You can still laugh at the implied existence of stories, even if they can't be seen when you have an emotional outburst. (or inburst - ha, i love making up new words)

I am finding myself in this very emotional flat space...nothing really excites me, I'm not interested in much, but nothing really is bumming me out either. Just Blah.

i get it. Something to associate with these experiences is that nothing is permanent (except change) There is nothing to do but wait. It will pass.
An interesting observation here is that when you are cold it is impossible to remember being warm. When you are 'up', you can't remember down, and when you are down it seems like it will be forever. It won't be. It can't be.
Have a look at this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... g.mp4?dl=0

love & compassion here

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Morning Vince

Ok, let's reset this. i imagine that you are having an emotional response to this? Once the procedure is understood there is nothing to do but (hopefully) relax and watch it happen.

Roger roger. Sounds good. Reset button pushed. I am beginning to relax and watch it happen...just takes me awhile to circle in on things. And I am seeing a bit more of what you were pointing to in that exercise.....and chuckling/smiling a bit more at events from the recent and even distant past....what ever that is!! What I am finding funny about these memories of events is the crazy belief that they could have gone any other way than they did and that I thought then, and continue to think as they arise, that there was a me directing any of it. Kinda takes the sting and the guilt out of those memories as they arise in awareness. So thanks for that! As I have been saying recently..."If they weren't so funny, they'd be tragic"

i imagine that you are having an emotional response to this?

Vince, I have an emotional response to damn near everything. Always (?) have.

Do you recognize the feelings of hopelessness as an event?

It's more like a perspective than an event.

It is the association of the recognition with laughing that we are looking to establish.

Yes, I see that now and it is helping the whole thing unravel itself. Like with the surrender quote...its undoing itself...by itself.

(or inburst - ha, i love making up new words)

Yup, that a good one and more accurately describes what happens. I think it should be added to the LU lexicon. And fersher most of my emotional response go inwards...an implosion....or inplosion.

Feeling a little lighter today (can you tell?) So you were right...

There is nothing to do but wait. It will pass.

I did check out Doc Joe's Ted Talk. Have seen him before and this is a great summary of his work. Lays out quite nicely and convincingly how those neural nets and groves get formed...and how to alter them. Interesting story of it all...and useful at the same time as it being a story. Makes it sound like we all need a whole systems reboot.

Much thanks and Love

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Bennett,

that they could have gone any other way than they did

You may not have realized the magnitude of these words. This is another portal.
It is through this portal that i discovered oneness. (Although oneness sounds a bit cliche) i saw, and maybe these words might be a light switch for you too.
Cause and effect is story. It is conceptual. Useful but...
Anothe useful concept is conditions. For the sake of satisfying mind we can say that any event requires conditions that enable it. For example, for me to be here typing these squiggles on a screen, an obvious condition is the presence of the computer. Another condition is that this organism has to have experiences that include schooling.
Going back further another condition is that my parents conceived me. ..and that they were conceived and had all of their live experiences exactly as they did to be able to have and raise me exactly as they did.
If we follow this line then we can extrapolate back to every ancestor and the conditions that enabled them to not only procreate, but to provide the conditions for their offspring to do the same.
If we go back hundreds of generations, we can even say that some of the conditions required were the food and shelter that enabled them to provide future generations with the necessary conditions.
That food required conditions to exist. Water and nutrients.
The geology and biology were some of the conditions that that water required to be available.
Even the butterfly in the Amazon is tied in with conditions necessary for me to be here doing this.
In fact there is no thing, no event, no anything since the beginning of existence (& maybe before this) this isn't a necessary condition for this happening. If you weren't there this wouldn't be the way it is.
As profound as this is, it is not saying that these conditions are part of something. It's like a hologram. The total is made up of totals. Every (apparent) part is everything. A single piece of stardust floating galaxies away, is a necessary condition for THIS.
Of course, it's all story, just as everything is right up until the moment when experiencing is happening, and by the time that is noticed it too is story.

Makes it sound like we all need a whole systems reboot.

Ah, this is one that took a lot longer to come to terms with. i used to like the sound of "everything is exactly as it should be." Now i laugh at the simplistic nature of that. i have replaced it with "Everything IS" or the realization that happened as i woke up. THIS IS IT!



with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hey Vince

Right on with your last post. I once heard someone say, and it struck me as very deep wisdom, that everything is the cause of everything else and so, really there is no cause of anything.......and that either everything is a miracle or nothing is, depending on how one choose to look at it. This is clear to me. As you wrote, the factors involved in every moment of existence being the way it is are beyond comprehension. Plastic, electricity,fingers, oxygen, gravity, planetary systems, ...not to mention all the generations before...to get to this moment of typing images to convey ideas about concepts...holy crap dude...mind blowing. And humbling....and yet also the awareness or recognition that "I" am not outside of all of that but right smack in the center..and its an omnicentric universe.

i used to like the sound of "everything is exactly as it should be.

The 'should' part of this always struck me as a little off....should is used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness....an unnecessary and confusing addition to "Everything IS"..and even that is a story that's not quite right.

it all is...seeing that more and more about present and past and every thing that arises. As Mr Spock from Star Trek would say..."Fascinating" . There really is less and less attachment to happenings, events, outcomes, stories, positions etc etc. Quite...well.... liberating.

Much Love and Appreciation

da Cap'n

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Bennett, So, have a rant on how cause and effect works?
..and another on what Now is? Is it something between the past and the future?
What is the past, and what is the future? (from the perspective of the organism)

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Bennett, So, have a rant on how cause and effect works?
..and another on what Now is? Is it something between the past and the future?
What is the past, and what is the future? (from the perspective of the organism)

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hi Vince

Interesting assignment. I've not been encouraged to rant before, that I can recall. How'd you know it was one of my specialties?

..have a rant on how cause and effect works?

This one is to easy! What cause? What effect? Those concepts presuppose linear time. We have a "cause" and then there is an "effect" . Fascinating story. There is, in truth, only THIS. Any assignment of cause and/or effect is overlay-ed onto what simply is the case of existence right now. Cause and effect are thoughts, "THIS" is experience. The analogy of the whole chicken and egg thing and which one is the cause and which the effect fits nicely here. They are both the cause and the effect of the other. Nothing the mind can wrap itself around and leaves one babbling in the gutter.

and another on what Now is? Is it something between the past and the future?
What is the past, and what is the future? (from the perspective of the organism)

Almost the same question as cause and effect. The past is the cause of the present and the present the cause of the future..or so we're told...and believe. But...Is it true? What is the direct experience without reference to memory, thought, beliefs, or stories? From the perspective of the pure organism...that which is truly "organic".... is just the existence and experience of this moment. Now...and Now...and Now...and .....As if the whole universe comes into existence in its entirety with all its memories, pasts, thoughts etc billions of time a second...in every moment in fact...infinitely and eternally newly born. The Big Bang on a Loop. This really cant be understood but that doesnt make it not so. And Now and Now..and BANG and NOW and BANG and NOW....And the Story (stories) never end...or even ever began.

Off the make supper....wow.

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Bennett,

Those concepts presuppose linear time. We have a "cause" and then there is an "effect".

i wonder if the impression of linear time isn't a cause/effect phenomenon.
i would say that certainly it is thought linking two events with labels of before and after in a way that implies that the first one is responsible for the second one.
We remember when there was only one of two events. We label it first. Then we remember a second event. Then there are two. We label the second event 'after' and the first one 'before'.
There is something about the 'after', the second event that suggests that it emerged from the first. What is that something that thought uses to link the two memories together?

There is, in truth, only THIS.

i know what you mean, but the "in truth" part makes me uncomfortable. Language is seductive, and this phrase implies something objective (called truth)
i would be much more comfortable if you said "in experiencing there is only THIS. ..and then only because the word THIS isn't pointing to something objective. Ok, I've nit-picked myself into a corner here. What i say about "truth" can equally be applied to "THIS".
There is only experiencing. ..then thoughts about the memory of that experiencing ...then experiencing in response to those stories ...then thoughts about the memory of that experiencing...then experiencing in response to those stories ...then thoughts about the memory of that experiencing...then experiencing in response to those stories ...then thoughts about the memory of that experiencing
Watching current experiencing, can you differentiate between experiencing memory of an event and stories about that event?

And the Story (stories) never end...or even ever began.

i love it. Is this pure story or is it story experienced?
What about when you are asleep?

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Well Vince, Could have sworn I sent this out on Tuesday...and have been awaiting your reply since.  Now I see that this never posted so off it goes now.  Could even swear I checked the postings during the week and saw it there.  Maybe I've entered into one of those infinite parallel universes quantum mechanics is trying to explain now. Whoa!

 Howdy there Vince

What is that something that thought uses to link the two memories together?

To personify thought for a moment...one could say that thought has been conditioned in this way...to "think"  and reason along these lines. If it had been trained differently it would "think" differently.  But.....Can a thought "do" anything? A thought, in this case about time, is thought.  The question that arises here is to who or what is that thought arising?....or is it simply arising and the who or what is a relic of language needing a subject and an object.  Is "Being" or "Isness" just playing around with concepts here thru "us", these seemingly separate entities, to experience what it is like not to be itself?   Curiosity and exploration of that which could never be?  A holo-deck of ideas.  

but the "in truth" part makes me uncomfortable.

I see what you mean here Vince.  I dont have the same uncomfortableness with the word or concept "Truth"  What ever  Truth is, It is..but something is fersher.  I dont claim to have a grasp on it, but that doesnt mean it doesnt  exist.   Something ....and it is certainly not a "thing"...is the Truth.  

There is only experiencing.

 I recently heard a cognitive neuroscientist  explain it this way...
There is the raw data of experience and then comes the mind to fill in , interpret, give context, meaning, time, location, memory etc.  This is one explanation for why the part of the brain associated with vision is so large and complex.  Simply receiving visual input takes very little RAM but that is not in fact what the brain is doing.  It is creating a story around the input and then showing or projecting that out for us to "see".  Its brain interpretation that we "see" with the eyes, or hear, or smell etc.  None of it is really there.  Our senses are a trickster from beginning to end. A bug "sees" an entirely different world.  

I suppose somewhere out there is the raw data but our senses can never reveal it to us.  They  too are part of the Matrix. (Are you familiar with that movie?)  In the same way the dream eyes I had in my dream last night "showed" me an accurate picture of the dream world I was in with "real" dream people and "real" dream scenery  and yet it was ALL mind made.  No sense organs in sight....but a very active brain making it all up.  An EKG of my brain activity would have been off the charts but I was "asleep".  Kind of like now.

Watching current experiencing, can you differentiate between experiencing memory of an event and stories about that event?

No, they appear to be the same thing.  

Is this pure story or is it story experienced?

Seems to me that nothing is "pure story".  There are elements, or shades, shadows etc of Truth, Reality...however we call it....in every thing....since that is all there is in the final analysis.  And is anything  that is experienced, because it is experienced,  not necessarily a story?

What about when you are asleep?

Night time dreams or day time dreams?  Different configurations of the same energy patterns.  Is one more "real" than the other?  That would be a hard sell...if its all mind stuff.

There truly is an ease with what IS emerging here.  Almost giddy.. and also hard to accept and just let this Life thing happen on its own...or admit that that is what has always been happening anyway.  Still some pockets of resistance.  But their foundations are crumbling...in part thanks to this inquiry...so thanks again.  

Tootles

Bennett

[vinceschubert]

'morning Bennett,

Can a thought "do" anything?

Agree, a thought doesn't do anything. A thought happens and we respond to it. In the case of cause and effect, the thoughts arise that suggest that because one memory is older, or before another, that there is a causal link. Is there a physical response to this? Satisfaction or doubt or intent to do it again or do it differently. Is there a sensation associated with intent?

Curiosity and exploration of that which could never be?

Here, active seeking has (kind of) stopped, but there remains an excitement about discoveries that may reveal (themselves) i embrace the mystery of what IS.
i really like SciFi and Quantum physics. Stuff that explores the boundaries of what is (apparently) known.
i don't have to accept or surrender to this great mystery anymore, because i am it. The world is it.

I dont have the same uncomfortableness with the word or concept "Truth" What ever Truth is,

Cult(urally) truth is what a person believes to be actual. On investigation, i see that that is always belief coupled with sensations of certainty. Nothing can be known, all is belief.

I recently heard a cognitive neuroscientist explain it this way...

Perfect. i believe he/she was 100% correct (haha)

I suppose somewhere out there is the raw data

Yes, i have been running with the concept that there is 'something out there that we interpret, but Quantum physics cast doubt on that, suggesting that everything out there comes into existence when observed. Is that existence really out there or a brain projection? (rhetorical question)

but I was "asleep". Kind of like now.

Ha, yes.
i had an experience as a kid that is still with me 65 years later.
My mother woke me up, as usual, to get ready for school. i got up and got dressed. It was always with difficulty as i read in secret until 1or 2am every night) ..anyway dressed and heading out of the bedroom door to breakfast when my mother woke me up to get ready for school. BAM! It was so real, and here i had to go through the whole thing again. The realization that i could only know that i was dreaming after waking up from that dream. (I've never experienced lucid dreaming - not for lack of trying) Now i believe that i have woken up from a cultural dream, but have no doubts that i have woken into another dream. (and i believe that there is only dream states)

There truly is an ease with what IS emerging here. Almost giddy..

Good, and exciting. Did you spin around as a kid to intentionally experience giddiness?

and also hard to accept and just let this Life thing happen on its own...

No effort required. It can't be any other way. Even attempts to control it, is this life thing doing it's thing.

Still some pockets of resistance.

Can you describe them?

Bennett, i experience an uplifting, joyful sensation when I'm about to read your posts.
i guess that you know that you have this effect on people. i think that you would be a fantastic guide. i guide because it keeps me on the edge. Pushing boundaries. There is a wonderful side effect of meeting people like you as well.
At some point, i will ask for three other guides to interpret your posts and confirm that they think that you have 'seen' at an experiential level. (not just intellectually) In order to make it easier for them, as the active ones are really busy and pushed for time (many like me are guiding multiple seekers, which means 3 or 4 hours daily) Those 6 questions were developed. When you feel like it, i will ask them again and if you can keep your answers confined to description of experience, please do so. i will wait for you to indicate readiness.

with love

vince

[CapnBoomer]

Hola Vince,

Cult(urally) truth is what a person believes to be actual. On investigation, i see that that is always belief coupled with sensations of certainty. Nothing can be known, all is belief.

And the Truth remains the Truth...known, unknown, unknowable, whatever...but still there...still here. Where could it go?

Agree, a thought doesn't do anything. A thought happens and we respond to it. In the case of cause and effect, the thoughts arise that suggest that because one memory is older, or before another, that there is a causal link.

If, in the final analysis, or even somewhere in between, there is no linear time as we understand it , how can one thought be older or appear before another...or maybe that is what you are saying......its all thought generated.

Is there a physical response to this? Satisfaction or doubt or intent to do it again or do it differently. Is there a sensation associated with intent?

I have an emotional response to everything...and yes it is "felt" in the body. As if that is any more real than the thought. IS there a sensation associated with intent?? Of course....as there is with all thought generated phenomena. They are cut from the same cloth.

i will wait for you to indicate readiness.

Perhaps you see something I dont. I feel nowhere near truly ready to answer such questions to demonstrate my gate-proximity. Most of my experience remains solidly of the individual in a separate world type. Perhaps momentary fleeting insights or glimpse into "no-self'...but it doesnt last. It is not abiding. It is not a lived experience. The conditioning here is so tenacious as to feel impervious to what inquiry might reveal. So I am not sure how good of a guide I wold be...at this point...when I feel so lost in the world of illusions of separation.....despite my inquiry and looking. Oh I can talk about it very convincingly..almost convince myself. And then I realize just how completely full of bull-shit I am

i guess that you know that you have this effect on people

How could I possibly be the source of that? I'll have to work on countering it. Maybe I need to be more of an asshole.

Thanks Vince

Bennett