I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Sure, Reby! Thanks for letting me know :)
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Good evening Rali
I'm sorry for the synthetic answers but I tried to stick to direct experience only without adding thought content
Thanks a lot ❤️
NoTouch the lighter.
Be utterly still. Feel the sensation.
Now:
Can you find anything in the sensation itself that says “lighter”?
It is ungraspableDoes the sensation has a certain shape, or is it ungraspable?
NoCan the sensation declare itself to be anything at all?
NoCan it say “I am a separate object, I am volume, I am outside of perception”?
All added by thoughtOr is that only added by thought?
I continue to see the existence of the objectSo try this:
Instead of deconstructing the object… try letting it win.
Let the lighter be exactly as it appears in DE: colour, sensation, a thought that says “lighter”.
Now where is the object—as a thing-in-itself?
color and sensation but this is also a thought so I don't knowBut what is it without the thought?
Do you see?
No, not from this perspective.Those shapes aren’t really there - they are only formed out of colour - but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?
I can't find this borderOK… Now LOOK! Where is the border where seeing ends and the seen begins?
It's a mental constructCan you find any beams or lasers (that seeing is made of), anything at all OR that border is it a mental construct?
Yes1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
No) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
No) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
There is only blackness, everything else is just a thoughtCan a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Reby, a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
For a moment I saw that.. no! It seemed quite funny to me, I laughed.. but I can't replicateCan an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
NoWould anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
I'm sorry for the synthetic answers but I tried to stick to direct experience only without adding thought content
Thanks a lot ❤️
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Hi Reby
Ok let’s explore this more…
I hope you like chocolate!
1.Imagine chocolate.
For the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating a piece chocolate…Feel it vividly. Warm. Melting. Pleasure. Texture. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of chocolate as much as you can.
2.Eat an actual piece of chocolate.
For the next couple of minutes actually have a piece of chocolate and see the difference. Experience the chocolate with curiosity and observe the sensations. Really enjoy it. Savour it completely, but this time—drop all labels. No “I like this,” no “it’s smooth,” no “I’m eating”. Just raw sensation.
Don’t think—FEEL.
3.Describe the experience in as much detail as possible.
Write the description here. What was the experience like?
4.Compare the three
After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences: 1. Imaginary piece of chocolate 2. Real piece of chocolate 3. Description of eating the real piece of chocolate
Now tell me:
• In the imaginary chocolate—was there an “eater”? What is actually present? Was there any actual chocolate? Or only mental image + sensation + thought?
• In the real chocolate—was there still an “eater”? Or only sensations? Was this experience more real? Or just more intense?
• In the description—who is speaking? Can that “speaker” be found outside of thought?
Where exactly is “you” in any of the three stages?
Is it ever more than a mental image—attached to a sensation—narrated by a thought?
Stay with this.
Don't move until the mechanism is felt as illusion, not understood as concept.
Don’t move forward yet. Hold still.
Right now, there is colour. There is sensation. But is that actually a thought? Or is the label “thought” being added after the fact? How do you see this after the chocolate?
Look now.
Are the raw textures of sight and touch inherently conceptual? Or are they just present, undefined, ungraspable? Yes, "colour", "sensations" are still words/labels but they are pointing to something there - DE. I say that real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it. Let's take 3 labels - chair, country and Superman.
The first points to sensations and colours (DE, labelled chair); the second to a label that is used for communication but can not be found as a DE; the third is an imaginary character, a word that points to something that isn't real. A fictional character. Hint, something like the self/Reby
But now—
Let a thought arise: “lighter,” “colour,” “sensation.”
Watch how it names, defines, frames.
Then notice: the naming happens on top of something already here (the raw experience of chocolate).
Can you see that? Can you feel the difference between what is actually present and the mental overlay?
Go again.
Stare at the “lighter.” FEEL it.
Where, precisely, is the boundary between perception and the perceived?
Hold that…
Now drop the idea of “lighter,” drop “hand,” drop “self,” drop even “experience.”
What remains?
Be precise. No philosophy.
What is here when thought doesn’t define it?
Report from this moment only. Don’t bring memory.
What is this, right now?
Don't move on. Stay here. Let the house of cards fall.
Just to clear something up...
Love
Rali
It seems like you are expecting a drastic change in experience. Can description of experience change the actual raw experience?? It’s not that you were seeing objects before and now you will stop all of a sudden – it’s all a description/thought that comes after/layered over the raw seeing - both "I see an object" and "There is no object" are descriptions layered on top of the raw experience. Shapes and dimensions are not inherent to the raw experience, they are added in the description – “this is an object”, “I continue to see the existence of the object”. These are all thoughts after/over the raw seeing.Now where is the object—as a thing-in-itself?I continue to see the existence of the object
Ok let’s explore this more…
I hope you like chocolate!
1.Imagine chocolate.
For the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating a piece chocolate…Feel it vividly. Warm. Melting. Pleasure. Texture. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of chocolate as much as you can.
2.Eat an actual piece of chocolate.
For the next couple of minutes actually have a piece of chocolate and see the difference. Experience the chocolate with curiosity and observe the sensations. Really enjoy it. Savour it completely, but this time—drop all labels. No “I like this,” no “it’s smooth,” no “I’m eating”. Just raw sensation.
Don’t think—FEEL.
3.Describe the experience in as much detail as possible.
Write the description here. What was the experience like?
4.Compare the three
After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences: 1. Imaginary piece of chocolate 2. Real piece of chocolate 3. Description of eating the real piece of chocolate
Now tell me:
• In the imaginary chocolate—was there an “eater”? What is actually present? Was there any actual chocolate? Or only mental image + sensation + thought?
• In the real chocolate—was there still an “eater”? Or only sensations? Was this experience more real? Or just more intense?
• In the description—who is speaking? Can that “speaker” be found outside of thought?
Where exactly is “you” in any of the three stages?
Is it ever more than a mental image—attached to a sensation—narrated by a thought?
Stay with this.
Don't move until the mechanism is felt as illusion, not understood as concept.
Right now—in the raw, alive present—feel into that not-knowing.Color and sensation but this is also a thought so I don't know.
Don’t move forward yet. Hold still.
Right now, there is colour. There is sensation. But is that actually a thought? Or is the label “thought” being added after the fact? How do you see this after the chocolate?
Look now.
Are the raw textures of sight and touch inherently conceptual? Or are they just present, undefined, ungraspable? Yes, "colour", "sensations" are still words/labels but they are pointing to something there - DE. I say that real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it. Let's take 3 labels - chair, country and Superman.
The first points to sensations and colours (DE, labelled chair); the second to a label that is used for communication but can not be found as a DE; the third is an imaginary character, a word that points to something that isn't real. A fictional character. Hint, something like the self/Reby
But now—
Let a thought arise: “lighter,” “colour,” “sensation.”
Watch how it names, defines, frames.
Then notice: the naming happens on top of something already here (the raw experience of chocolate).
Can you see that? Can you feel the difference between what is actually present and the mental overlay?
Go again.
Stare at the “lighter.” FEEL it.
Where, precisely, is the boundary between perception and the perceived?
Hold that…
Now drop the idea of “lighter,” drop “hand,” drop “self,” drop even “experience.”
What remains?
Be precise. No philosophy.
What is here when thought doesn’t define it?
Report from this moment only. Don’t bring memory.
What is this, right now?
Don't move on. Stay here. Let the house of cards fall.
Just to clear something up...
If you are expecting that you would be laughing non stop after seeing no self, you are mistaken and in the wrong place – remember no fireworks, just a subtle shift of perceptions. To be able to replicate/to maintain takes an agency, a doer. Seeing no self is not a state, it is just seeing though the illusion/descriptions/perceptions - the mirage of an oasis is just the desert. There is a difference between an illusion and a delusion. One is known not be real, while the other is believed to be true. The mirage of an oasis does not disappear after it is seen as the desert, but you know very well that you won't be getting water.For a moment I saw that.. no! It seemed quite funny to me, I laughed.. but I can't replicate
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
hi Rali, to let you know that I will answer you tomorrow, is that ok?
Hug
Hug
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Sure :)
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Hi Rali
Somehow it's me
NoIt seems like you are expecting a drastic change in experience. Can description of experience change the actual raw experience??
Ok I think I get it..It’s not that you were seeing objects before and now you will stop all of a sudden – it’s all a description/thought that comes after/layered over the raw seeing - both "I see an object" and "There is no object" are descriptions layered on top of the raw experience. Shapes and dimensions are not inherent to the raw experience, they are added in the description – “this is an object”, “I continue to see the existence of the object”. These are all thoughts after/over the raw seeing.
When I took the piece of chocolate, it was smooth and a little cold to the touch. As soon as I put it in my mouth, it started to melt. The flavor is "soft" and sweet, intense, it left me with a creamy sensation.3.Describe the experience in as much detail as possible.
Write the description here. What was the experience like?
a lot of effort to try to keep the imagination on the imagined experience the imagination is very poor in detailsAfter you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences: 1. Imaginary piece of chocolate
the experience of taste and mouthfeel is effortless and rich in content2. Real piece of chocolate
when I wrote the experience, the memory of the experience I had just had made the description richerDescription of eating the real piece of chocolate
In thoughtIn the imaginary chocolate—was there an “eater”?
Only thoughtWhat is actually present? Was there any actual chocolate? Or only mental image + sensation + thought?
No in the sense that there was only the taste. Yes because I was the one doing it.. an ambivalent answerIn the real chocolate—was there still an “eater”?
Sensations plus thoughts about me eating chocolateOr only sensations?
More real and more intenseWas this experience more real? Or just more intense?
The thought/IIn the description—who is speaking?
The speaker is nothing but the thought... but...Can that “speaker” be found outside of thought?
Somehow it's me
In the body that has these experiences... in that which is aware of them...Where exactly is “you” in any of the three stages?
I understand but I just understandIs it ever more than a mental image—attached to a sensation—narrated by a thought?
I took some more time to see if I could do it but so far I haven't been able to.Stay with this.
Don't move until the mechanism is felt as illusion, not understood as concept.
No, color and sensation exist independently of thought.Right now, there is colour. There is sensation. But is that actually a thought? Or is the label “thought” being added after the fact?
they are real, present undefined and ungraspableLook now.
Are the raw textures of sight and touch inherently conceptual? Or are they just present, undefined, ungraspable?
YesThen notice: the naming happens on top of something already here (the raw experience of chocolate).
Can you see that? Can you feel the difference between what is actually present and the mental overlay?
Perception IS the perceived, they are one thingStare at the “lighter.” FEEL it.
Where, precisely, is the boundary between perception and the perceived?
Pure perceptionNow drop the idea of “lighter,” drop “hand,” drop “self,” drop even “experience.”
What remains?
The perception of the sensesBe precise. No philosophy.
What is here when thought doesn’t define it?
The perceivedReport from this moment only. Don’t bring memory.
What is this, right now?
Ok, thanks :)Just to clear something up...
(For a moment I saw that.. no! It seemed quite funny to me, I laughed.. but I can't replicate)
If you are expecting that you would be laughing non stop after seeing no self, you are mistaken and in the wrong place – remember no fireworks, just a subtle shift of perceptions. To be able to replicate/to maintain takes an agency, a doer. Seeing no self is not a state, it is just seeing though the illusion/descriptions/perceptions - the mirage of an oasis is just the desert. There is a difference between an illusion and a delusion. One is known not be real, while the other is believed to be true. The mirage of an oasis does not disappear after it is seen as the desert, but you know very well that you won't be getting water.
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Maybe I understand: what we see is color without depth. The brain re-elaborates the raw visual information and creates the concept of depth, volume, etc. We believe we see a three-dimensional object but in reality we only see color + thought content. The thought knows that object and mentally from the simple color it conceptually adds the missing parts. (I write and delete because I have a clear idea of what I want to say but I don't know how to explain it without having a reference image that helps me explain.... I hope I have succeeded more or less)
Is this what it's about?
Volume, depth, space are "just" concepts..?
I hope I'm not just talking nonsense
But if I stand still it "works" but if we take space for example, if I walk or move, I do it in space...
Is this what it's about?
Volume, depth, space are "just" concepts..?
I hope I'm not just talking nonsense
But if I stand still it "works" but if we take space for example, if I walk or move, I do it in space...
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Hi Reby
Where precisely is the one “doing it”?
Look again.
The chocolate was tasted. Sensation happened. But at what point did a “you” emerge in that chain?
Was there a doer who chose to feel the texture?
Did “you” initiate the melting, or did it just happen?
Go again. Put something simple in your mouth.
Don’t think. Just feel.
Where is the you that is eating?
Is there a command center? A “mouth-owner”? A “taster”? Describe if you answer with “yes”
Or is it all just taste… sensation… and the thought, after the fact, that says “I ate”?
Don't just understand! Have a proper look if anything thought says is happening is true!
Right now—what is perceiving these words? Pause! LOOK! Don’t just spit out the next thought
Can you find anything at all doing it?
Or is there just… this… happening?
Perceiving assumes a thing behind perception. It assumes a hidden source, a ghost in the machine. Something that receives/gives meaning to the experience
So flip it:
Can you find any edge to perceiving?
Is it located? Is it owned? Does it have a source?
Without a thought… is there even the notion that something is happening?
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink.
When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali
In the real chocolate—was there still an “eater”?No in the sense that there was only the taste. Yes because I was the one doing it.. an ambivalent answer
Exactly. There was no eater—only tasting. Now let’s burn that ambivalence to the ground.Or only sensations?Sensations plus thoughts about me eating chocolate
Where precisely is the one “doing it”?
Look again.
The chocolate was tasted. Sensation happened. But at what point did a “you” emerge in that chain?
Was there a doer who chose to feel the texture?
Did “you” initiate the melting, or did it just happen?
Go again. Put something simple in your mouth.
Don’t think. Just feel.
Where is the you that is eating?
Is there a command center? A “mouth-owner”? A “taster”? Describe if you answer with “yes”
Or is it all just taste… sensation… and the thought, after the fact, that says “I ate”?
Don't just understand! Have a proper look if anything thought says is happening is true!
Exactly. That’s not enough. This is not about understanding but seeing! But tell me... So you don’t see the thought overlay over the raw DE? There is raw indescribable sensation and then there is a thought that gives it meaning - it says "this is so and so". But let's try the reverse. I recently tried a fruit that the locals call sour soap. If I give you a description – the fruit is fragrant, sweet and sour, fleshy, and soft – did you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit exactly tastes like? Did you have the raw experience?Is it ever more than a mental image—attached to a sensation—narrated by a thought?I understand but I just understand
What exactly is perceiving without thought? To perceive means to become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand.What remains?Pure perception
Right now—what is perceiving these words? Pause! LOOK! Don’t just spit out the next thought
Can you find anything at all doing it?
Or is there just… this… happening?
Perceiving assumes a thing behind perception. It assumes a hidden source, a ghost in the machine. Something that receives/gives meaning to the experience
So flip it:
Can you find any edge to perceiving?
Is it located? Is it owned? Does it have a source?
Without a thought… is there even the notion that something is happening?
Now that you know how to look, let’s investigate the “body”…Where exactly is “you” in any of the three stages?In the body that has these experiences... in that which is aware of them...
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink.
When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Good evening Rali
Thanks for all !
In the bodyWhere precisely is the one “doing it”?
It is assumed to be already here, in the bodyBut at what point did a “you” emerge in that chain?
NoWas there a doer who chose to feel the texture?
Just happenDid “you” initiate the melting, or did it just happen?
In thoughtWhere is the you that is eating?
In ThoughtIs there a command center?
In ThoughtA “mouth-owner”?
In ThoughtA “taster”?
Taste and the thought about me living that experienceOr is it all just taste… sensation… and the thought, after the fact, that says “I ate”?
Yes I see it, I think so.So you don’t see the thought overlay over the raw DE?
Nodid you manage to experience and get an idea what the fruit exactly tastes like? Did you have the raw experience?
Color, sound, touch, hearing, tasteWhat exactly is perceiving without thought?
I don't know.. something has to do it... by forceRight now—what is perceiving these words?
NoCan you find anything at all doing it?
There is only this and thought about meOr is there just… this… happening?
NoCan you find any edge to perceiving?
NoIs it located? Is it owned? Does it have a source?
sorry I'm not sure I understand this questionWithout a thought… is there even the notion that something is happening?
BWhen you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”?
NoCan it be known how tall the body is?
NoDoes the body have a weight or volume?
NoIn the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
NoIs there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Just one sensationAt the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
I see it's just a body but it's ALSO my bodyIs it "my" body, or is it just a body?
the border between inside and outside is the skin..Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
Sensations and colorsWhat does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
yes the body does thingsCan the 'body' do things?
Thanks for all !
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Hi Reby
I notice that there is some confusion about what DE and what thought content about DE (labels, story, fairy tales) are, and what you should look at, so here is an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)
Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Going back to your answers…
Drop the assumption that there must be a perceiver.
Just feel what’s happening without any commentary.
Is anything actually doing the perceiving?
Look closer. Not “think about”—look.
Is there an entity? A perceiving machine? A watcher behind the eyes (e.g. seeing "blackness")?
Or is this just… happening?
Not done by anything. Not forced. Not caused.
Just—appearing.
Report only what you SEE! No imaginary, seems like, feels like entities!
Right now—eyes closed—feel the body.
Is there any evidence of an owner?
Can you find a tag that says “mine”?
Or are there just raw sensations—warmth, pressure, movement?
Let’s strip it:
“Body” is a label.
“My” is a label.
“Mine” is a story.
Sensation is what’s actually here.
Can you find anything in the actual experience that claims ownership? If “body” is just a label over sensations and colours, how can the doer/owner be inside sensations and colour?
If there’s no owner of the body…
…and no self to be found in sensation, or thought…
What is the self? Where was it ever?
Tell me now—don’t reach for logic:
Was there ever a “you”?
Look. Be still. Don’t flinch.
Right now—direct experience only: Is there actually a boundary?
Touch your arm.
Where is the line between sensation and touching? Are there two sensations - one of fingers and one of skin - or just ONE (labelled "fingers toucing skin")?
Is there “you” inside, and “world” outside?
Or just sensation—neither in nor out? Does the sensation have a boundary - where does it start and where does it end? LOOK!
Now stare at your hand.
Do you see “inside” and “outside”?
Or is that a thought superimposed on color, shape, pressure?
Where’s the line?
Can you find it? Or is it only ever assumed?
So go even deeper:
Where are you located?
Point to it.
Not a body. Not a name. Not a thought. You!
Where is this “you” that’s supposedly inside the skin?
If inside and outside are both stories—
and if no border can actually be found—
Is there any place “you” begin or end?
Or has this always been boundary-less happening—with labels pasted on?
Now tell me:
Without reference to memory or language—
Where is “you”?
Look.
Love
Rali
I notice that there is some confusion about what DE and what thought content about DE (labels, story, fairy tales) are, and what you should look at, so here is an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)
Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Going back to your answers…
Something is happening… you said “There is only this and thought about me”, so can it be known what is happening without the description/thought? You see, I like the word “THIS” as it is more like a pointing word – pointing to whatever is directly experienced like an arrow with no extra meaning – rather than labelling the experience. Looking is just staying with the experience without the commentary/the narration. Looking is a nonverbal action, thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory), like the sour soap fruit. Do you see that?Without a thought… is there even the notion that something is happening?sorry I'm not sure I understand this question
Look again. Right now. Drop all explanations. Drop “force.” Drop “something.”Right now—what is perceiving these words?I don't know.. something has to do it... by force
Drop the assumption that there must be a perceiver.
Just feel what’s happening without any commentary.
Is anything actually doing the perceiving?
Look closer. Not “think about”—look.
Is there an entity? A perceiving machine? A watcher behind the eyes (e.g. seeing "blackness")?
Or is this just… happening?
Not done by anything. Not forced. Not caused.
Just—appearing.
Report only what you SEE! No imaginary, seems like, feels like entities!
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?I see it's just a body but it's ALSO my body
But where is the “my” in direct experience?Where precisely is the one “doing it”?In the body
Right now—eyes closed—feel the body.
Is there any evidence of an owner?
Can you find a tag that says “mine”?
Or are there just raw sensations—warmth, pressure, movement?
Let’s strip it:
“Body” is a label.
“My” is a label.
“Mine” is a story.
Sensation is what’s actually here.
Can you find anything in the actual experience that claims ownership? If “body” is just a label over sensations and colours, how can the doer/owner be inside sensations and colour?
If there’s no owner of the body…
…and no self to be found in sensation, or thought…
What is the self? Where was it ever?
Tell me now—don’t reach for logic:
Was there ever a “you”?
Look. Be still. Don’t flinch.
Yes—the skin is the perfect lie. It seems like the boundary… but look again.Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?the border between inside and outside is the skin..
Right now—direct experience only: Is there actually a boundary?
Touch your arm.
Where is the line between sensation and touching? Are there two sensations - one of fingers and one of skin - or just ONE (labelled "fingers toucing skin")?
Is there “you” inside, and “world” outside?
Or just sensation—neither in nor out? Does the sensation have a boundary - where does it start and where does it end? LOOK!
Now stare at your hand.
Do you see “inside” and “outside”?
Or is that a thought superimposed on color, shape, pressure?
Where’s the line?
Can you find it? Or is it only ever assumed?
So go even deeper:
Where are you located?
Point to it.
Not a body. Not a name. Not a thought. You!
Where is this “you” that’s supposedly inside the skin?
If inside and outside are both stories—
and if no border can actually be found—
Is there any place “you” begin or end?
Or has this always been boundary-less happening—with labels pasted on?
Now tell me:
Without reference to memory or language—
Where is “you”?
Look.
We’ll have a look next…Can the 'body' do things?yes the body does things
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Hi Rali
Holding the apple in your hand, simply: sensation
Seeing the apple, simply: color
Apple in your mouth, simply: taste + sensation
Thinking that it is good, simply: thought
Go for a walk:
Walking, simply: sensation
Landscape around me, simply: color
Birds singing, simply: sound
Scent flowers, simply: smell
Reading a book:
Book in my hands, simply: sensation
Smell of printed paper, simply: smell
Seeing the printed words, simply: color
Reading, simply: thought
Eating an apple:Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Holding the apple in your hand, simply: sensation
Seeing the apple, simply: color
Apple in your mouth, simply: taste + sensation
Thinking that it is good, simply: thought
Go for a walk:
Walking, simply: sensation
Landscape around me, simply: color
Birds singing, simply: sound
Scent flowers, simply: smell
Reading a book:
Book in my hands, simply: sensation
Smell of printed paper, simply: smell
Seeing the printed words, simply: color
Reading, simply: thought
Absolutely YES! Sorry I didn't understand what you were asking (I'm using the translator and maybe some meaning is lost here and there)so can it be known what is happening without the description/thought?
Yes, I see it. I think that the problem is precisely this, being able to escape the hypnosis of thought to be able to simply see things as they are. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for the effort you put into trying to make me understand!Looking is just staying with the experience without the commentary/the narration. Looking is a nonverbal action, thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory), like the sour soap fruit. Do you see that?
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Actually when I can glimpse that there is only this and nothing that perceives it, (but it always remains a subtle echo of me) the body simply relaxes into what is there. It is liberating but I can't see it completely free from the idea of being that which perceivesIs anything actually doing the perceiving?
trying to look, is the entity the one trying to look. It's like wanting to walk stepping on my own toes.Look closer. Not “think about”—look.
Is there an entity?
I know this is "thinking about" but I struggle to "exclude myself" when I feel like the one who excludes.
I feels like there is an observer behind the eyesA perceiving machine? A watcher behind the eyes (e.g. seeing "blackness")?
everything is happening but I'm in the foregroundOr is this just… happening?
There isn'tBut where is the “my” in direct experience?
NoRight now—eyes closed—feel the body.
Is there any evidence of an owner?
NoCan you find a tag that says “mine”?
sensations and the thought that continues to speak about meOr are there just raw sensations—warmth, pressure, movement?
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
ThoughtLet’s strip it:
“Body” is a label.
“My” is a label.
“Mine” is a story.
Sensation is what’s actually here.
Can you find anything in the actual experience that claims ownership?
I still don't trust direct experience exclusively.If “body” is just a label over sensations and colours, how can the doer/owner be inside sensations and colour?
So in direct experience the perception of the body is sensations and colors and this is clear to me. However, thought says (and I believe it) that the body has a consistency, a volume, internal organs, an intelligent brain that creates consciousness....
Sorry but I just can't ignore these beliefs (it doesn't mean I don't want to try, it's just to put my weak points on the table)
I'm sorry I'm not able to answer these questionsIf there’s no owner of the body…
…and no self to be found in sensation, or thought…
What is the self? Where was it ever?
Tell me now—don’t reach for logic:
Was there ever a “you”?
I know we've already covered this but the different colors have meaning for me..I feel the border with perception, for example if I pick up the remote control (black) I don't just see the border between it and my pink hand, I also perceive it with sensation where the borders correspond to what I see in the colors. It's a perception confirmed by the different angles of the senses and this makes it a finished objectYes—the skin is the perfect lie. It seems like the boundary… but look again.
Right now—direct experience only: Is there actually a boundary?
Just a feeling.... but I don't have to look, seeing confuses meTouch your arm.
Where is the line between sensation and touching? Are there two sensations - one of fingers and one of skin - or just ONE (labelled "fingers toucing skin")?
Still yes..Is there “you” inside, and “world” outside?
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Touching my arm, with my eyes closed, there is only the sensation. With my eyes open there is still only the sensation but let's say the boundary between reality and concepts becomes more blurredOr just sensation—neither in nor out?
With my eyes closed, no, I can't define the boundariesDoes the sensation have a boundary - where does it start and where does it end?
no I only see colorNow stare at your hand.
Do you see “inside” and “outside”?
Yes it is thisOr is that a thought superimposed on color, shape, pressure?
Now my hand is resting on the table. The border seems to me to be the line where the color of my hand ends and the color of the table begins... if I touch my hand I feel the touch, if I touch the table, I don't feel the touch, so the border, i must again to confirm that it is the skin....Where’s the line?
Can you find it?
If I can't point to the body I don't know where I amSo go even deeper:
Where are you located?
Point to it.
Not a body. Not a name. Not a thought. You!
It's the body and the skin is the borderWhere is this “you” that’s supposedly inside the skin?
Inside and outside are real for me, the border is still there for meIf inside and outside are both stories—
and if no border can actually be found—
Is there any place “you” begin or end?
I understand this.Or has this always been boundary-less happening—with labels pasted on?
Behind the lookNow tell me:
Without reference to memory or language—
Where is “you”?
Look.
sorry, it wouldn't let me send it all together! :)
Thanks for your patience! 🙏
Re: I would like to be guided by Poppyseed :)
Hi Reby
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
Let me know what is SEEN.
Look right now: Who is trying?
Don’t give the answer. Look.
Where is the “you” in the looking? What is looking made of?
There is what IS happening and the description of it (aka thought). But where exactly is the look-er?
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Can you stay focused on the breath for 24h? If not why, if it is in your control?
Is this something you control?
Is there anything more than sensation + thought that says “I’m doing this”?
You don’t need to step out of self.
You just need to see: there was never a self to step out of.
Even the one who’s trying to get free…
is just another story.
You don’t need to believe direct experience.
You just need to stop believing thought.
That’s the shift.
No addition. Just subtraction.
The self doesn’t fall away (it was never there to begin with)—belief in it stops getting propped up.
And DE is all you have – it’s always there even when you don’t think about it. Do you have to think for breathing to happen, or for heartbeat?
Let’s explore thoughts – how they happen and their thinker…
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts. Designate some time for this very thorough exploration of the nature of thoughts...
A thought appears. LOOK!
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it? (if “yes”, give proper description, no “feels like” or “seems like”)
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.
Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
We’ll come back to skin, body and inside and outside once the belief in thoughts is challenged.
Love
Rali
Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. How does it feel to see what actually is? Please give me a line or two with each of your replies to keep the momentum goingHolding the apple in your hand, simply: sensation
Seeing the apple, simply: color
How can it be known, if knowledge is also a description (a description of descriptions)? You seem to believe that there is a direct correspondence between labels and raw experience. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not. So let’s challenge this :so can it be known what is happening without the description/thought?Absolutely YES! Sorry I didn't understand what you were asking (I'm using the translator and maybe some meaning is lost here and there)
When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?
Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
Let me know what is SEEN.
Feels like? Remember “feels like” is a thought; nothing in DE is “feels like” – it’s either here or not. And if it is here you should be able to give a full description (like with an apple). Also go back to the “blackness” and check if there are any eyes in the seeing of “blackness”. Read the description properly.I feels like there is an observer behind the eyes
But that “I who struggles”—can it be found outside the struggle?trying to look, is the entity the one trying to look. It's like wanting to walk stepping on my own toes.
I know this is "thinking about" but I struggle to "exclude myself" when I feel like the one who excludes.
Look right now: Who is trying?
Don’t give the answer. Look.
Where is the “you” in the looking? What is looking made of?
There is what IS happening and the description of it (aka thought). But where exactly is the look-er?
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Can you stay focused on the breath for 24h? If not why, if it is in your control?
Is this something you control?
Is there anything more than sensation + thought that says “I’m doing this”?
You don’t need to step out of self.
You just need to see: there was never a self to step out of.
Even the one who’s trying to get free…
is just another story.
Hehe, even if these beliefs are about Santa and unicorns???I still don't trust direct experience exclusively.
So in direct experience the perception of the body is sensations and colours and this is clear to me. However, thought says (and I believe it) that the body has a consistency, a volume, internal organs, an intelligent brain that creates consciousness....
Sorry but I just can't ignore these beliefs (it doesn't mean I don't want to try, it's just to put my weak points on the table)
You don’t need to believe direct experience.
You just need to stop believing thought.
That’s the shift.
No addition. Just subtraction.
The self doesn’t fall away (it was never there to begin with)—belief in it stops getting propped up.
And DE is all you have – it’s always there even when you don’t think about it. Do you have to think for breathing to happen, or for heartbeat?
Let’s explore thoughts – how they happen and their thinker…
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts. Designate some time for this very thorough exploration of the nature of thoughts...
A thought appears. LOOK!
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it? (if “yes”, give proper description, no “feels like” or “seems like”)
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.
Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
We’ll come back to skin, body and inside and outside once the belief in thoughts is challenged.
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot], LillaLilla and 19 guests

